Did Jesus have Faith?

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Brenton’s Septuagint Hab.2:4 version:
ccel.org/ccel/brenton/lxx/Page_1107.html

Brenton’s English translation of Hab.2:4:
“If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by** my faith.”**

Cyprian quotes from the Septuagint of Hab.2:4 in his 42nd Treatise: “The just shall live by my faith”

Hebrews 10:38 quotes almost verbatim from Hab.2:4, but transposes the first two clauses. Furthermore, the personal pronoun ‘my’ modifies faith in Hab.2:4, but modifies ‘righteous’, or ‘just’ in Hebrews 10:38.

Greek Study Bible (Apostolic/Interlinear)
biblos.com/hebrews/10-38.htm

Douay-Rheims translation of Hebrews10:38:
But **my just **man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.

As we can see from these two scriptures that the soul of God has no pleasure in him who withdraws himself from God.

In both the OT and the NT of this scripture, there is the verse that precedes them**:”For,after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay.”**

As Hebrews 11:6 says, “without faith it is impossible to please Him.”

Fortunately for us,** God is well pleased with His Son.**
Matt.3:17, Matt.12:18, Matt.17:15, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22

So, “will the Son of Man find faith in the earth when he comes?” I am praying, hoping and believing that we will have the faith of the Son of Man abiding in us when He returns.
 
Brenton’s Septuagint Hab.2:4 version:
ccel.org/ccel/brenton/lxx/Page_1107.html

Brenton’s English translation of Hab.2:4:
“If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by** my faith.”**

Cyprian quotes from the Septuagint of Hab.2:4 in his 42nd Treatise: “The just shall live by my faith”

Hebrews 10:38 quotes almost verbatim from Hab.2:4, but transposes the first two clauses. Furthermore, the personal pronoun ‘my’ modifies faith in Hab.2:4, but modifies ‘righteous’, or ‘just’ in Hebrews 10:38.

Greek Study Bible (Apostolic/Interlinear)
biblos.com/hebrews/10-38.htm

Not the common way of translating such…(see RSV etc such is not the way such is ordinarily translated) just cause some have translated it as such does not mean Jesus “had Faith”…(he the science of seeing).

Douay-Rheims translation of Hebrews10:38:
But **my just **man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.

As we can see from these two scriptures that the soul of God has no pleasure in him who withdraws himself from God.

Has nothing to do with Jesus. He could not withdraw from himself…and he was God …the Son…the second person of the Trinity and he always pleased the Father…this does not mean he had “Faith”…

In both the OT and the NT of this scripture, there is the verse that precedes them**:”For,after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay.”**

As Hebrews 11:6 says, “without faith it is impossible to please Him.”

This is regarding human persons… (and of course …needs to be understood in the light the rest (some may never have explicit faith…through no fault of their own etc)

Fortunately for us,** God is well pleased with His Son.**
Matt.3:17, Matt.12:18, Matt.17:15, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22

yes the Father was well pleased with him …but never does it say “because of his faith”…as Son of God he did not need faith…anymore than I need belief that I am bookcat…for know I am…(in this sense of the forum of course…my parents came up with a better name than that…)

So, “will the Son of Man find faith in the earth when he comes?” I am praying, hoping and believing that we will have the faith of the Son of Man abiding in us when He returns.

we need Faith IN Jesus Christ…
 
NotWorthy said:
Hebrews 11:1 says, “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”

Jesus is the Source of our Faith, but did Jesus have Faith?
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"Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father” (Jn 6:46) …Faith is when one is does not “see”…(as scripture says).

Jesus has seen the Father…and reveals him to us…we have Faith.

This will clear things up for you:

From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."
 
If anyone has thought that I am assuming that Heb.10:38 is referring to the faith of Jesus Christ,it does not. Hab.2:4 in the Septuagint version is referring to the faith of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:38 is speaking of the righteous one of God who lives by faith. It is speaking of the believers in Jesus Christ who live by faith, and exhorting them in the context of scripture(s) not to withdraw from God prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

The most common translation of Hab.2:4 in the N.T. is “the just shall live by faith”.

More often than not, it is referring to the justification that we have through faith** in **Jesus Christ.

Several times it is speaking of justification by, or in the **faith of Christ, faith of **Jesus Christ, or **faith of **the Son of God.

(Phil.3:9, Gal.2:16, Gal.2:20)

In these scriptures, faith in relation to Christ, Jesus Christ, or the Son of God is in the genetive objective case. To my understanding, such faith is the possession of Christ, of Jesus Christ, of the Son of God. One will find that some translations use the preposition of for this reason, rather than the preposition,** in. **(Neither preposition exists in the Greek, but the genetive objective case for ‘Christ’, ‘Jesus Christ’, ‘the Son of God’ is apparent, and one needs a Greek interlinear to see it).

In summary, when ‘the just shall live by faith’ is quoted in the N.T. it generally applies to justification by faith in the person of Jesus Christ. However, the Septuagint version of Hab.2:4 refers to justification by Jesus Christ’s faith, his own faith. A very strong case could be made for for the same in (Phil.3:9, Gal.2:16, Gal.2:20) .

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God pleased his God and Father. He was lovingly obedient to everything that his Father asked him to do and say here on earth. Faith is more than ‘seeing’ God, or ‘knowing’ God. Faith is ‘trusting’ God that no matter what sort of suffering, or even death we are asked to undergo we will not withdraw from God. Jesus Christ is the ‘leader and perfecter of faith’ because ‘for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross, despising the shame.”
 
zarthan said:
Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God pleased his God and Father. He was lovingly obedient to everything that his Father asked him to do and say here on earth. Faith is more than ‘seeing’ God, or ‘knowing’ God. Faith is ‘trusting’ God that no matter what sort of suffering, or even death we are asked to undergo we will not withdraw from God. Jesus Christ is the ‘leader and perfecter of faith’ because ‘for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross, despising the shame.”
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But zarthan, this is exactly why I posted the definition of Faith according to Hebrews in the opening post
NotWorthy said:
Hebrews 11:1 says, “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”

Jesus is the Source of our Faith, but did Jesus have Faith?
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NotWorthy said:
But zarthan, this is exactly why I posted the definition of Faith according to Hebrews in the opening post
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And I want to thank you, and thank God for asking this question in the first place. Ever since you asked this question, my heart, my soul and my spirit have been overflowing with an understanding of the faith of Jesus Christ in a way that I did not previously realize. For myself, this is not an intellectual, or philosophical debate, it is the gist and grist of what it is to be justified and sanctified in the faith of Jesus Christ. No matter what anyone else thinks, I am thanking God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for his faith.
 
Jesus was fully God and fully man.

As God, He did not have faith; he had knowledge.

As man, He had faith that what God promised would come to pass.
 
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."
 
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."
 
To distort another person’s words is evil. To say that Jesus became a believer like us is evil.

If anything, Jesus Christ wants us to have the full measure of his own faith. A faith that is willing to serve God and not mammon. A faith that is a lover of God and not a lover of pleasure. A faith that is willing to lose one’s own life for His sake, rather than to save one’s own life . A faith that is willing to be in the world, but not of it. A faith that is willing to love one’s enemies, rather than kill them. A faith that is willing to be persecuted, rather than to persecute. We as a nation, we as the church are so far from the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ it is absolutely evil to say Jesus became a believer like us.
 
This was a quote from the Church on the very subject…

It is talking about that fact that he has vision…he came to reveal the Father who he knows…he is not a believer as we are…he sees…

“If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …”

Jesus give us Faith and perfects our Faith…he is the very Son of God.

I encourage all to read well this from the CDF:forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7197785&postcount=67
 
It was a quote which you attributed to myself. Frankly, there are times when the traditions of the Catholic faith make the Word of God of no effect. Scripture in point:

“Though being a Son,** he learned obedience through the things which he suffered**and being made perfect,he became the leader of salvation to all who obey him”

The Son of God was made perfect in faith by learning obedience to his heavenly Father in the midst of suffering, thereby becoming the leader of our salvation. If the Son of God had not been perfected, we would not have a leader of our salvation. Hence, he is the “leader and perfecter of faith”. Jesus Christ is then able to perfect our faith as we obey him. “Through works, faith is perfected”.
 
zarthan said:
It was a quote which you attributed to myself. Frankly, there are times when the traditions of the Catholic faith make the Word of God of no effect. Scripture in point:

“Though being a Son,** he learned obedience through the things which he suffered**and being made perfect,he became the leader of salvation to all who obey him”

The Son of God was made perfect in faith by learning obedience to his heavenly Father in the midst of suffering, thereby becoming the leader of our salvation. If the Son of God had not been perfected, we would not have a leader of our salvation. Hence, he is the “leader and perfecter of faith”. Jesus Christ is then able to perfect our faith as we obey him. “Through works, faith is perfected”.
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I was just quoting the Church…just giving the words of the CDF …(not yours) I was giving the Catholic Answer (this is the Catholic Answers forum)…to the original poster…my post was addressed particularly to his original question…yes of course it also responded to our discussion…but it was not quoting you …( I would not intentionally misquote you…) (but often yes I assert my own words in posts…so maybe you took what I was saying as me quoting you…but such were my words :))

And frankly …no the teachings of the Catholic Church do not make the Word of God to no effect…

Catechism:

The “…Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.”

"It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48 (CCC 86)

But to address you…Again this is just your personal interpretation…

And the Sacred Scriptures NEVER say Jesus had Faith…it just does not…you are in a a way interperlating into them here…by your personal interpretation.

But yes we have Jesus gives us Faith …and perfects it 🙂

Praised be Jesus Christ the perfecter of our Faith!
 
Bookcat said:
And the Sacred Scriptures NEVER say Jesus had Faith
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I think that settles it. The scriptures refer to the faith of numerous people, and hold them up as models for our faith. If Jesus had faith, then the scriptures would surely say it, and present Him to us as the highest model for faith.

According to the scriptures: He trusted, He obeyed, He loved, He sacrificed himself, He served, and we are to imitate Him in all these, but there is no mention of Him having faith. Rather, as you quoted, he KNEW the Father.

In the Mass we refer to “Abraham, our father in faith”, as St Paul also commends Abraham’s faith as our model.

This has been a very worthwhile discussion for me, and I am glad that my misunderstanding has been corrected!

Thankyou!
 
Faith is obedience to God in the face of ridicule, persecution and death, because you trust God will do as He has said… Not a blind believing something. God has a track record for doing what He says.

Saying that Jesus knew the Father, therefore he had no faith is the opposite. He knew the Father and therefore believed the Father would do as He said.

It also presumes that we don’t know the Father. Now that would be a shame. If we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father. Hence if we know Jesus, we know the Father.

The limping side of Christ, as foreshadowed by the bruised heel of the seed of the woman, and the withered thigh of Jacob represent the flesh of Christ which did not want to die at Gethsemane. He had to overcome the temptation to put his own flesh first, in order to love us enough to face the cross. This was an act of faith.

It is what we are commanded to do. To put others before ourselves trusting that God will care for us.

The consequence of Jesus using divinity to resist temptation is that his temptation was a fraud, and he is an illegitimate high priest. But he **was **tempted like we are, and resisted like we are supposed to do. How could he command us to be perfect if he cheated in being perfect? How could he condemn us, if he was not tempted like we are?

Make me a god and I won’t sin either!, would be our excuse at the judgment seat. But he has removed all excuses by being perfect in the flesh.
 
rcjones said:
Faith is obedience to God in the face of ridicule, persecution and death, because you trust God will do as He has said… Not a blind believing something. God has a track record for doing what He says.

Saying that Jesus knew the Father, therefore he had no faith is the opposite. He knew the Father and therefore believed the Father would do as He said.
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RC, go back to Hebrews 11:1. I am using that as the basis of faith.

Anything else would be… well, unbiblical! 😉
 
NotWorthy said:
RC, go back to Hebrews 11:1. I am using that as the basis of faith.

Anything else would be… well, unbiblical! 😉
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So am I.

There are nearly 30 terms used for the kingdom of God in Hebrews. This is coupled with a repeating pattern of shadow vs. reality.

As a conclusion to the pattern, Hebrews 10.1 says that the law has a shadow of the “good things coming” … the kingdom of God.

And 11.1 is paired with it saying that Faith is the essential nature of the “things not seen”… the kingdom of God.

Since faith is the building block and substance of the kingdom of God… the author then shows us the faithful building blocks who were obedient to God in the face of ridicule, persecution and death, which is the very definition of faith spelled out by the lives of these saints.

I agree… anything else would be unbiblical. 😉
 
rcjones said:
So am I.

There are nearly 30 terms used for the kingdom of God in Hebrews. This is coupled with a repeating pattern of shadow vs. reality.

As a conclusion to the pattern, Hebrews 10.1 says that the law has a shadow of the “good things coming” … the kingdom of God.

And 11.1 is paired with it saying that Faith is the essential nature of the “things not seen”… the kingdom of God.

Since faith is the building block and substance of the kingdom of God… the author then shows us the faithful building blocks who were obedient to God in the face of ridicule, persecution and death, which is the very definition of faith spelled out by the lives of these saints.

I agree… anything else would be unbiblical. 😉
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I’m not sure I’m reading you here, brother. Sometimes I think you see shadows where there is only light. 😉

You say that Faith is the paired with the Kingdom of God.

But I don’t see the Kingdom of God in the various examples of Faith in the next few verses.
By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice greater than Cain’s. Through this he was attested to be righteous, God bearing witness to his gifts, and through this, though dead, he still speaks.*** 5 ****** By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.****** 6 *** 5 But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.*** 7 ****** By faith Noah, warned about what was not yet seen, with reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household. Through this he condemned the world and inherited the righteousness that comes through faith.****** 8 ****** By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go.****** 9 ****** By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise;****** 10 ****** for he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and maker is God.****** 11 ****** By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age–and Sarah herself was sterile–for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy.****** 12 ****** So it was that there came forth from one man, himself as good as dead, descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sands on the seashore.****** 13 ****** All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth,***
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For instance, Noah’s “things unseen” was God’s warning of the coming flood, not the Kingdom of God.
 
NotWorthy said:
I’m not sure I’m reading you here, brother. Sometimes I think you see shadows where there is only light. 😉

You say that Faith is the paired with the Kingdom of God.

But I don’t see the Kingdom of God in the various examples of Faith in the next few verses.
For instance, Noah’s “things unseen” was God’s warning of the coming flood, not the Kingdom of God.
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They have all been added to the Kingdom by faith. That is the point of it all. Not that if you believe God, you won’t get it.
 
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