Did Jesus have siblings?

[Sir_Knight]

What are you going to do if your arrive at the BANQUET OF THE lORD in heaven and find non-Catholics seating already at the table and sharing with the Lord? Are you going to excommunicate yourself from the banquet or are you going to humble yourself and accept them? By the way, I am a member of the Roman Catholic clergy. God bless.

As a Roman Catholic clergy, are you then in disagreement with Pope Benedict approving a document saying non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation? (Source). By the way, this is a position that has been held by a number of Popes through the centuries. Where do you stand on this?

 

[Sir_Knight]

EDITED TO SAY:

Are you going to excommunicate yourself from the banquet or are you going to humble yourself and accept them?

Will Popes, who were granted the gift of infallibility, also have to excommunicate themselves from the banquet, if that is a position that they taught to the faithful? Will the faithful, who obeyed their spiritual leaders, as the infallible Word of God commands us to do, and accepted their teaching on this matter, also have to excommunicate yourself from the banquet?

 

[Sir_Knight]

My interpretation is that we are not to associate with unbelievers who might corrupt us and not those whom we might convert.
Paul also mentioned that we should not associate with evildoers and I believe it all has to do with evildoers poisoning other people’s mentality.

Otherwise why would Jesus have sent out the 72 / 12 to the believing/unbelieving towns?

I cannot explain what “too catholic” means but I just understand it

As I’ve been saying from the beginning – this applied to those who REJECTED the faith … not those that were never exposed to it – which is why, as you pointed out, Jesus set his disciples out to spread the word but to those that don’t accept the word, He told them to shake the dust of their town from their feet as a testimony against them saying that it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah then for those who REJECTED the faith that was brought to them.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

As a Roman Catholic clergy, are you then in disagreement with Pope Benedict approving a document saying non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation? (Source). By the way, this is a position that has been held by a number of Popes through the centuries. Where do you stand on this?

Sir Knight, you did not answer my question, "Are you going to excommunicate yourself from the banquet of the Lord if you see non-Catholics seating at the table of the Lord or you will humble yourself and sit down with them? Who am I to dictate to the Lord who should be invited or not. God, please forgive me if I ever try. Please, you need to answer that question. I will be very careful to say that only Catholics will be at the banquet. About the popes, did they make those statements under the "umbrella of infallibility? Do you believe all the popes go to heaven? Have you heard about “Ecumenism”? Have your heard about the efforts of reconcilation with the "Orthodox Church’? These are the two churches who can trace their “Apostolic Succession.” all the way to the apostles. To talk about the history of Christianity you must go to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, the two main roots of the original Christian church, as described in the Acts of the Apostles.
Were St. Peter, St. John, and St. Paul members of the Roman Catholic Chruch or Orthodox Church? I believe they were Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah, the fulfillment of their Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and welcome Christianity as the new way of life prescribed by their Master. In their hearts Christianity was true Judaism. I am proud of my Roman Catholic faith but I WILL NEVER dictated who is to be or not at the banquet. READ MATTHEW 25. God bless.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight, you did not answer my question, "Are you going to excommunicate yourself from the banquet of the Lord if you see non-Catholics seating at the table of the Lord or you will humble yourself and sit down with them?

You are asking what I would do in a situation that can never happen according to OFFICIAL Church teaching – no one who rejects Catholic teaching will be present at the banquet.

Who am I to dictate to the Lord who should be invited or not. God, please forgive me if I ever try.

You are I, no. But our Church leaders have the assurance of Christ that they would be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truths.

Please, you need to answer that question.

There is no point in answering a question on something that can never happen. It would be like me asking you how would you get your food if you were turned into a frog? Since it can never happen, there is no point in addressing it.

I will be very careful to say that only Catholics will be at the banquet.

I would be very careful in disbelieving Jesus’s promise that whatever the Apostles and their successors bound on earth would remain bound in heaven.

About the popes, did they make those statements under the "umbrella of infallibility?

Yes, they did.

• Going back in time as early as the days of the Athanasian Creed, it was taught then that “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
• About 585 A.D., Pope Pelagius II infallibly stated, “If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
• In 1208 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
• In 1215 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved…” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 430)
• In 1302 A.D., Pope Boniface VIII infallibly stated, “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sins…” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 468)
• In 1302 A.D., by the power invested in him, Pope Boniface VIII infallibly stated, “…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)
• In 1442 A.D, Pope Eugenius IV, 1442, at the Council of Florence, reaffirmed this truth. "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 714)
• The same truth regarding the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation was reaffirmed by Pope Gregory XVI in 1832 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1863 A.D.; Pope John XXIII on June 29, 1961 A.D.; Pope John Paul I, on August 27, 1978; Pope John Paul II on October 21, 1981, etc.

… Continued in NEXT Post ***

 

[Sir_Knight]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post …

Do you believe all the popes go to heaven?

As a Roman Catholic clergy you should know that this is immaterial to the conversation because a person’s own sinfulness has no bearing on their lawful authority. A priest in a state of mortal sin still has valid authority to forgive the sins of others. A pope can lose his own soul to the fires of hell but can never lead the faithful into untruths.

Have you heard about “Ecumenism”? Have your heard about the efforts of reconcilation with the "Orthodox Church’? These are the two churches who can trace their “Apostolic Succession.” all the way to the apostles. To talk about the history of Christianity you must go to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, the two main roots of the original Christian church, as described in the Acts of the Apostles.
Were St. Peter, St. John, and St. Paul members of the Roman Catholic Chruch or Orthodox Church?

Given the fact that the Roman Catholic Church claims that the pope is a successor of Peter, the answer should be obvious.

I believe they were Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah, the fulfillment of their Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and welcome Christianity as the new way of life prescribed by their Master. In their hearts Christianity was true Judaism.

Which means that they did not reject Catholic teachings.

I am proud of my Roman Catholic faith but I WILL NEVER dictated who is to be or not at the banquet. READ MATTHEW 25. God bless.

You and I are not in a position to dictate but the Popes are assured by Christ that their rulings are in line with heaven (read Matt. 16:19) and we are to be obedient to our spiritual leaders and their teachings.

 

[NHInsider]

You are asking what I would do in a situation that can never happen according to OFFICIAL Church teaching – no one who rejects Catholic teaching will be present at the banquet.

[numerous quotes snipped]

*] The same truth regarding the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation was reaffirmed by Pope Gregory XVI in 1832 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1863 A.D.; Pope John XXIII on June 29, 1961 A.D.; Pope John Paul I, on August 27, 1978; Pope John Paul II on October 21, 1981, etc.

You are forcing meaning into the language that is definitively not there. The Church is necessary for salvation, and all who are saved are more-or-less perfectly part of the Catholic Church - but the Ecumenical Council explicitly taught that

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do God’s will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” Lumen Gentium

This was recently discussed in this thread and this one.

The latter thread has some interesting commentary on the subject of ultra-traditionalists who believe their personal interpretation of magesterial documents is inerrant.

 

[Sir_Knight]

" … Those who, through no fault of their own … " — What have I been saying? Those the REJECT the faith – which is different from those, who through no fault of their own …

You are forcing meaning into the language that is definitively not there. .

Of course it is there. Just check the supporting references that I listed – all of them reference it as infallible teaching.

 

[Janet1983]

What are you going to do if your arrive at the BANQUET OF THE lORD in heaven and find non-Catholics seating already at the table and sharing with the Lord? Are you going to excommunicate yourself from the banquet or are you going to humble yourself and accept them? By the way, I am a member of the Roman Catholic clergy. God bless.

I know what I’d do… I’d be happy to be at the banquet with Sir Knight and other Catholics…
I am a defected Catholic (commonly called ex-Catholic).

 

[Janet1983]

You are asking what I would do in a situation that can never happen according to OFFICIAL Church teaching – no one who rejects Catholic teaching will be present at the banquet.

• Going back in time as early as the days of the Athanasian Creed …]
• About 585 A.D., Pope Pelagius II …]
• In 1208 A.D., Pope Innocent III …]
• In 1215 A.D., Pope Innocent III …]
• In 1302 A.D., Pope Boniface VIII …]
• In 1302 A.D., by the power invested in him, Pope Boniface VIII …]
• In 1442 A.D, Pope Eugenius IV …]
• The same truth regarding the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation was reaffirmed by Pope Gregory XVI in 1832 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1863 A.D.; Pope John XXIII on June 29, 1961 A.D.; Pope John Paul I, on August 27, 1978; Pope John Paul II on October 21, 1981, etc.

You and I are not in a position to dictate but the Popes are assured by Christ that their rulings are in line with heaven (read Matt. 16:19) and we are to be obedient to our spiritual leaders and their teachings.

First of all there was no Protestant Church in your major quotes as Martin Luther wasn’t born until 1483.
Gregory XVI wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Summo Iugiter Studio” on May 27, 1832.
Pius IX wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Singulari Quidem” on March 17, 1856.
Pius IX wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Quanto Conficiamur Moerore” on August 10, 1863.
Leo XIII wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Annum Ingressi Sumus” on March 19, 1902 (sorry I couldn’t find the text, just a rather short Wikipedia entry and the text in German.)
Pius X wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Iucunda Sane” on March 12, 1904.
Benedict XV wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum” on November 1, 1914.
Pius XI wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Mortalium Animos” on January 6, 1928.
Pius XII wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in “Humani Generis” on August 12, 1950.
The Second Vatican Council wrote about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14.

However as you know, the Catholic Church includes every person who has been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, though not necessarily as part of the physical Catholic Church… Having said that the above only excludes non-Christians, Quakers, the Salvation Army and Oneness-Pentecostals (though they might be valid in the Catholic view as Pope Stephen I, St. Ambrose, and Pope Nicholas I are said to have declared that baptisms in the name of “Jesus” only as well as in the name of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” were valid.) …
Though non-Christians are not always excluded either… CCC 1260 states the following: ““Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”

 

[guanophore]

 Outside of the Church heresy cannot be claimed, as those who do not believe because of their prior education in a Protestant denomination are not subjecting themselves to the Roman pontiff.

All Christians are subjects of the Roman Pontiff. Many of them are just rebellious subjects.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post …

As a Roman Catholic clergy you should know that this is immaterial to the conversation because a person’s own sinfulness has no bearing on their lawful authority. A priest in a state of mortal sin still has valid authority to forgive the sins of others. A pope can lose his own soul to the fires of hell but can never lead the faithful into untruths.

Given the fact that the Roman Catholic Church claims that the pope is a successor of Peter, the answer should be obvious.

Which means that they did not reject Catholic teachings.

You and I are not in a position to dictate but the Popes are assured by Christ that their rulings are in line with heaven (read Matt. 16:19) and we are to be obedient to our spiritual leaders and their teachings.

Sir Knight, I hope you had a Blessed Easter and may the peace and love of Christ be with you always. Sorry I was not able to write to you earlier but I was very busy with the Sacred Liturgies since Holy Thursday. Thanks to my Lord, I am back.

“The Lord himself affirmed that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” (C.C.C. # 1257)

Summary: Baptism is necessary for slavation and assures entry into eternal beatitude. God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism.

Point: Our Roman Catholic Church clearly teaches the existence of “One Baptism.” The Catholic Church recognizes the Christian baptism of many Christian denominations, with the exception of the ones conferred by the J.W., Mormon, and Jesus Only Pentecostal churches.

“By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.” C.C.C. # 1263)

Summary: In those who have been reborn by Baptism] nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God."

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community that resulted from such separation’ and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (C.C.C. # 818)

Summary: All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

I say to you, Sir Knight, if our beloved Catholic Church ackowledges their Baptism and accepts them as brothers in the Lord, you and I have the obligation to do so. I love any human who has accepted Jesus in their heart and they will always be my “brothers” and “sisters” in the Lord.

God bless.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You provided some interesting quotes from the CCC but seemed to overlook some other ones. Let’s go back to paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where we read, “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.’” (C.C.C. # 816)

As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.

So, exactly what does this mean? Well, to receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”

In the case of non-Catholic Christians, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess NO means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

What are these mortal sins that can impede one’s entry into the Kingdom of God? In the Letter to the Galatians, we read, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:19-10; C.C.C. # 1852)

In the First Letter to the Corinthians, we read, “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.” [1 Cor. 6:9-10]

Two Chapters later, we read, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” [1 Cor. 11:27-30]

In the Revelation to John, we read, “Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” [Rev. 21:7-8]

“Outside (of the Kingdom of God) are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” [Rev. 22:15]

These Biblical passages declare that, Catholic or not, those who chose through their free will to turn away from the holy ways, the righteousness of God, because of their mortal sins, they eternally condemn themselves.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

You provided some interesting quotes from the CCC but seemed to overlook some other ones. Let’s go back to paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where we read, “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.’” (C.C.C. # 816)

As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.

So, exactly what does this mean? Well, to receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”

In the case of non-Catholic Christians, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess NO means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

What are these mortal sins that can impede one’s entry into the Kingdom of God? In the Letter to the Galatians, we read, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:19-10; C.C.C. # 1852)

In the First Letter to the Corinthians, we read, “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.” [1 Cor. 6:9-10]

Two Chapters later, we read, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” [1 Cor. 11:27-30]

In the Revelation to John, we read, “Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” [Rev. 21:7-8]

“Outside (of the Kingdom of God) are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” [Rev. 22:15]

These Biblical passages declare that, Catholic or not, those who chose through their free will to turn away from the holy ways, the righteousness of God, because of their mortal sins, they eternally condemn themselves.

May the blessings of the Lord be with you, Sir Knight. I believe that you and I accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( CCC ) as a document that "states official teachings of our beloved Catholic Church, As you know, the “IMPRIMATUR” stamps the validation of this document. You stated, “You provided some interesting quotes from the CCC but seemed to overlook some other ones.” Teachings of the church, as contained in the CCC, cannot contradict each other. If this is the case, they you are bringing the possibility that our Catholic Church, which contains “the fullness of the faith”, is full of contradictions. I know that you and I don’t believe this. I believe that “Fullness means Fullness.” These teachings compliment each other. Therefore, you cannot accept the ones that help your case but reject those that do not. You may need to contact the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, ( USCCB) and alert them about these “apparent” contradictions.

 

[Sir_Knight]

May the blessings of the Lord be with you, Sir Knight. I believe that you and I accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( CCC ) as a document that "states official teachings of our beloved Catholic Church, As you know, the “IMPRIMATUR” stamps the validation of this document. You stated, “You provided some interesting quotes from the CCC but seemed to overlook some other ones.” Teachings of the church, as contained in the CCC, cannot contradict each other. If this is the case, they you are bringing the possibility that our Catholic Church, which contains “the fullness of the faith”, is full of contradictions. I know that you and I don’t believe this. I believe that “Fullness means Fullness.” These teachings compliment each other. Therefore, you cannot accept the ones that help your case but reject those that do not. You may need to contact the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, ( USCCB) and alert them about these “apparent” contradictions.

As you correctly stated, the Catechism can not contradict itself. The Catechism has to be taken as a whole and not in bits and pieces. For example, the phrase “There is no God” is found in the bible but that has to be looked at in the complete context that was presented and the complete passage is “The FOOL says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1). When taken in it’s complete format, it has an entirely different meaning.

The parts which you have quoted present part of the teaching but an incomplete part. When taken together with what I have presented, an entirely different understanding comes to light.

 

[Deacon_JAR]

As you correctly stated, the Catechism can not contradict itself. The Catechism has to be taken as a whole and not in bits and pieces. For example, the phrase “There is no God” is found in the bible but that has to be looked at in the complete context that was presented and the complete passage is “The FOOL says in his heart there is no God” (Psalm 14:1). When taken in it’s complete format, it has an entirely different meaning.

The parts which you have quoted present part of the teaching but an incomplete part. When taken together with what I have presented, an entirely different understanding comes to light.

Sir Knight, thank you for your quick response. One more time I say that the teachings of the church CANNOT contradict each other. One teaching cannot call the non-Catholic Christian “unbelievers”, “not members of the body of Christ”, and another one states that they “have been justified by faith in Baptism” and that our “Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I am quoting C.C.C. # 818, which states that, “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community that resulted from such separation’ and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Do they share the same “Baptism?”. YES, there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM. Are they part of the Body of Christ? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818. ARE they consider Christians? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818. ARE they accepted by the Catholic Church as BROTHERS IN THE LORD? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818.

I will advise you to contact the office of your Diocesan Bishop and ask for the “FINAL” and “CONCLUSIVE” position of the Catholic Church concerning this issue. Hopefully, that should bring this “search for the truth” to a final and clear conclusion, so others can be instructed with the “OFFICIAL” declaration, not personal interpretations.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight, thank you for your quick response. One more time I say that the teachings of the church CANNOT contradict each other. One teaching cannot call the non-Catholic Christian “unbelievers”, “not members of the body of Christ”, and another one states that they “have been justified by faith in Baptism” and that our “Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I am quoting C.C.C. # 818, which states that, “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community [that resulted from such separation’ and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Do they share the same “Baptism?”. YES, there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM. Are they part of the Body of Christ? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818. ARE they consider Christians? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818. ARE they accepted by the Catholic Church as BROTHERS IN THE LORD? YES, as stated by C.C.C. # 818.

But do THEY accept the fullness of salvation that is offered by the Catholic Church alone? Do they accept the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist? Do they accept the authority of the priest to forgive sins in the name of Jesus? The answer is “No”. That is where the rubber meets the road.

Without the fullness of salvation offered by the Catholic Church, which they reject, they would need to keep themselves free from ALL mortal sin from the time of their baptism until death (see C.C.C. # 1861). While not impossible, certainly an unlikely event since scripture tells us that we all fall short of salvation – which is why Jesus gave us the Catholic Church and the graces found in the sacraments to help us get across the finish line. Without that help, crossing the finish live becomes EXTREMELY unlikely.

And if what you say is true that the Church accepts them as “brothers in the Lord”, then kindly explain why the Church does NOT invite them to partake in the Eucharist with us?

Deacon_JAR:

I will advise you to contact the office of your Diocesan Bishop and ask for the “FINAL” and “CONCLUSIVE” position of the Catholic Church concerning this issue. Hopefully, that should bring this “search for the truth” to a final and clear conclusion, so others can be instructed with the “OFFICIAL” declaration, not personal interpretations.

I suggest that you do the same.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Deacon_JAR]

But do THEY accept the fullness of salvation that is offered by the Catholic Church alone? Do they accept the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist? Do they accept the authority of the priest to forgive sins in the name of Jesus? The answer is “No”. That is where the rubber meets the road.

Without the fullness of salvation offered by the Catholic Church, which they reject, they would need to keep themselves free from ALL mortal sin from the time of their baptism until death (see C.C.C. # 1861). While not impossible, certainly an unlikely event since scripture tells us that we all fall short of salvation – which is why Jesus gave us the Catholic Church and the graces found in the sacraments to help us get across the finish line. Without that help, crossing the finish live becomes EXTREMELY unlikely.

And if what you say is true that the Church accepts them as “brothers in the Lord”, then kindly explain why the Church does NOT invite them to partake in the Eucharist with us?

I suggest that you do the same.

My friend Sir Knight, going over other topics in this forum I encountered a very good resource I hope will bring insight to our common goal. See

.

 

[Sir_Knight]

1. Your link doesn’t work.
2. Even if it did, I’d rather stick with official church teaching as found in the CCC rather than something on youtube.

 

[guanophore]

The gospels were written in Greek. I realize that Jesus was most likely speaking aramaic, but the exact words he used in aramaic are not that important. If the writer of Matthew wanted to say cousin or kinsmen, he would have used the greek word for it. He wouldn’t have translated something that Jesus said in a literal way so that it didn’t mean the same thing in Greek.

Actually, that is exactly what happened. Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic, and everyone translated it as best they could. It was eventually translated into Gk, but in the Hebrew culture, near kindred that are too close for marriage are all considered brother and sister. This is how clans life operates.

Who are you to come along 2000 years after the fact, and decide what they “shoulda” or “coulda” done?

Why would you try to understand the passage separated from the beliefs of those who wrote it?

Dont’ you think the Apostles would know if Jesus had womb siblings from Mary? Why do you suppose they taught he did not?