Did Jesus of Bible claim he is God?

[Daniel_Marsh]

oops that wasn’t Steve. sorry Daniel. There is a deeper revelation about who Jesus is when He talks about John the Baptist. A hint: The Baptist is part of what Jesus referred to as “this generation”.

Do you have 70 AD in mind or am I missing something?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Steve also, Is Jesus going to be King on earth or in heaven?

 

[BibleSteve]

Daniel,

When you can pass this simple logic test, we can start reasoning on scriptures:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleSteve
Yep, I think this is going to become my 2 question test to decide if somone has the ability to grasp the truth. This will save a lot of time…

1. If Daniel has a son named Johnny, which of the following descriptions could be used to describe Johnny:

A) “Daniel’s Son”
B) 'The Son of Daniel".
C) “Daniel The Son”
D) All of the Above.

1. If God has a son named Jesus, which of the following descriptions could be used to describe Jesus :

A) “God’s Son”
B) 'The Son of God".
C) “God The Son”
D) All of the Above.

This is a wonderful set of questions to quickly understand how a person thinks.

In 2 simple questions, we can determine if their beliefs are based on basic rules of logic and consistency.

If a person readily identifies their core Trinitarian beliefs as not following rudimentary logic, and thus are “illogical”… how could I possibly use reason or logic to discuss other Scriptures?

 

[Benadam]

Daniel,

When you can pass this simple logic test, we can start reasoning on scriptures:

the nature of what God generates and what man generates cannot be compared. God generates eternally. Man generates within the bounds of time.’ The’ Son of God means that God is the generating force not Adam.

But for man D
For God B

sorry for buttin’ in…that was for Daniel.

 

[BibleSteve]

Simple Logic provides the correct answers A&B for both questions. The answers, C or D violate simple logic.

 

[Benadam]

ahh, rofl…C refers to someone else entirely for humans…good one! Got me Steve I doubt you would get Daniel he’s smarter than me:shrug:

P.S. What about the question I posted?

 

[BibleSteve]

Being able to answer A&B to both questions doesn’t require being smart. Frankly, any child would answer A&B to the questions. It’s only through religious preconditioning that people decide the answer is something else.

 

[Benadam]

Simple Logic provides the correct answers A&B for both questions. The answers, C or D violate simple logic.

C works if the generating force is God because God would generate His kind. Divine nature

 

[Benadam]

Being able to answer A&B to both questions doesn’t require being smart. Frankly, any child would answer A&B to the questions. It’s only through religious preconditioning that people decide the answer is something else.

only if one does not apply the meaning of reproducing your kind to the relationship of father and son. the ‘generations’ of Adam versus ‘The’ generation of God or the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[BibleSteve]

ahh, rofl…C refers to someone else entirely for humans…good one!

Yes, that’s the point… C refers to someone else… always. Not just for humans.

 

[Benadam]

Yes, that’s the point… C refers to someone else… always. Not just for humans.

refer to posts # 168 and #169…or maybe I should just sit a spell and wait

 

[Peregrino]

C works if the generating force is God because God would generate His kind. Divine nature

The issue is really twofold 1) if Jesus is divine? and 2) if yes, what was the degree of his divinity?. Ultimately this issue is hopeless (it is a matter of faith) because we can’t prove any of it with words or “evidence”.

Steve’s questions are good and relate to our use of language. We are forced to answer A and B with the use of the logic inherent in our language usage. Assigning paternity to God, thus allowing us to call Jesus the son of God (as I understand it, this term as used by Jews did not imply or require that the recipient be divine) does this mean that Jesus is divine? Is divinity a dominant or latent trait?..lol, I mean, are we sure that Jesus carried this trait and if so to what degree was it expressed?

Even other religions, e.g. the ancient Greek religion, did not assume that the son of Zeus was Zeus himself. The Greek gods were purported to have fathered many children, none of whom were called by their father’s names and were themselves human and weaker than their fathers, though they were definitely special. Why the assumption that it is different in Christianity? I think the OT foreshadows the coming of Jesus (or we read the OT with Jesus in mind, seeing what we want to see). To what degree does it foreshadow that Jesus was the same as God? I am not sure.

 

[Benadam]

The issue is really twofold 1) if Jesus is divine? and 2) if yes, what was the degree of his divinity?. Ultimately this issue is hopeless (it is a matter of faith) because we can’t prove any of it with words or “evidence”.

The Greeks lacked the revelation of God that only God could bring as a human. Does the father son relationship imply an act that employs a generating force that reproduces it’s kind or does this only apply if you are not ‘The’ Son of God?

*It is different precisely because myth has no historical value. The revelation of God brought by Jesus and spread by Christians has concrete historical foundations. Jesus is God who entered human history. Because of that, myth can only point to truth but in Christ Truth happened. Hence the Greek God’s could not come in the Name of their father as Jesus did. The Greeks lacked that kind of knowledge…well the ones who were stuck …Aristotle Plato etc…they knew *

I’ve noticed neither of you have stepped up to the plate to answer the question I’ve posted more than once now… posts # 168 and 169…

 

[BibleSteve]

I personally don’t understand your question.

 

[Benadam]

To what degree does it foreshadow that Jesus was the same as God? I am not sure.

Honestly, do you think if it weren’t to an extraordinarily high degree it would have had such an impact on humanity on so many levels of experience for 2000 yrs. That kind of dynamic doesn’t happen to imagined realities. That is another way Christianity is distinguished from myth based religions.

 

[Benadam]

I personally don’t understand your question.

I’m sorry Steve I’ll repost it I gave the wrong numbers

What does it reveal about Jesus when He teaches that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet born of woman? Why does he join John the Baptist to those born of woman?

 

[BibleSteve]

What does it reveal about Jesus when He teaches that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet born of woman? Why does he join John the Baptist to those born of woman?

The 26 translations I’ve reviewed say something to the effect that of everyone born to women (i.e. everyone), no one is greater than John the Baptist (i.e. he’s a really important guy, 2nd to no one, especially since he was the forerunner of Jesus), but a “lesser one in the kingdom” (i.e. someone chosen to fulfill the role of a king and priest in heaven), is greater than he (meaning he’s not going to fulfill the role of a king and priest in heaven).

I’m not sure what you’re looking for…

When Jesus says “no one is greater than he”, is a nice complement, but doesn’t necessarily means he’s better than the other prophets.

You’ll have to enlighten me with your thoughts on this…

 

[Peregrino]

Degrees of divinity? Divine defines nature, are there degrees of human?

The closest analog that came to mind on the divinity issue is the Greek gods and their progeny. Some were imbued with “special” abilities. Gods breeding with humans has a long history… Since we have so much physical evidence on this issue I figured this was good enough…lol Degrees of human? Well it depends on the human…lol

again with nature it is not a matter of expression but of being. It either is and expresses that it is or it isn’t and doesn’t. If a divine being became a human being that person would fully express a human and divine nature.

I am no geneticist but I think that people can carry the genes for a trait but not express that trait, counter to your point. You say “if a divine being became a human being that person would fully express a human and divine nature”–you are making a rather factual statement here, can you support that factually? You make it sound as though you are talking science here…

The term isn’t defined by jews for someone who is Christian. A Christian is someone who worships a person who is generated by God who became human. A person who’s form of divine worship takes on the name of a person generated by a human is practicing idolatry.

You have totally lost me here.

The Greeks lacked the revelation of God that only God could bring as a human. Does the father son relationship imply an act that employs a generating force that reproduces it’s kind or does this only apply if you are not ‘The’ Son of God?

It is different precisely because myth has no historical value. The revelation of God brought by Jesus and spread by Christians has concrete historical foundations. Jesus is God who entered human history. Because of that, myth can only point to truth but in Christ Truth happened. Hence the Greek God’s could not come in the Name of their father as Jesus did. The Greeks lacked that kind of knowledge…well the ones who were stuck …Aristotle Plato etc…they knew

And here…

Do you believe that the Greek gods are real? I have noticed others saying things similar to this. This is weird to me…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel,

When you can pass this simple logic test, we can start reasoning on scriptures:

Augustine already passed the test for me, go back and read it.

In short, my father was named Daniel Marsh, I too am Daniel Marsh. And, you are trying to bring God down to the level of creatures, that will not work.

Now, here is my challenge for you.

Arius was not born until 256 AD He wrote his book, The Banquet around 323 AD. We have given you lots of quotes dated before that which proves that early christians believed that Jesus is God. My quoting the scriptures only represents my opinion and you quoting the scriptures at best only represents your opinion at worse represts what you learned from jehovah’s witnesses.

So, first make a list of your theology, that Jesus is NOT God, 144,000 only going to heaven or whatever, make your list as specific as you can, with as many things you can think of, like soul sleep, etc.,

Second, limit your research to documents from 90 AD to 300 AD.

Try to find any church father, who was taught by the apostles or who are a second, third or fourth generation christian who believes everything you do.



So, where is your theology search list already?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Simple Logic provides the correct answers A&B for both questions. The answers, C or D violate simple logic.

Ah, you mean the “logic” of some philospher right?

Aristotle’s logic, especially his theory of the syllogism, has had an unparalleled influence on the history of Western thought. It did not always hold this position: in the Hellenistic period, Stoic logic, and in particular the work of Chrysippus, was much more celebrated. However, in later antiquity, following the work of Aristotelian Commentators, Aristotle’s logic became dominant, and Aristotelian logic was what was transmitted to the Arabic and the Latin medieval traditions, while the works of Chrysippus have not survived.

plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/
iep.utm.edu/a/aristotl.htm

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? **Where is the philosopher of this age? **Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Aristotle (384-322 BCE)

So, now you are following the philophy of the world!!! how nice.