Did Jesus say He would send the church to teach us?

[JKirkLVNV]

***I am sorry for not responding to you before now. I am not a great writer and some things are hard to explain with just a few words. The Holy Spirit let me know that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus, and to non-Catholics that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Christ. I am sure that it would take me too long to explain to a Catholic that all Spirit filled Christians are priest. I will share a Scripture where people just went to their homes and had Eucharist. (Acts 2:46-47) “They went as a body to the temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously; they praised God and were looked up to by everyone. Day by day the Lord added to their community those destined to be saved.” ***

Jesus told me He would teach me about Him and He has, and He will everyone who will open up their hearts and minds and let Him. Everyone need to stop saying no to the idea that Jesus will come to them personally.

Robert: You won’t have that much trouble explaining it to the Catholics here. A huge number of us were raised in the various Protestant sects and are familiar with the teachings. You just going to have a difficult time convincing anyone that they are the Truth. If we believed they were true, we wouldn’t be Catholics. We believe SOME of them are true, but those are the ones that were taken from Catholicism. Most Catholics that post here DO have a “personal relationship” with Jesus (by the way, those words aren’t found anywhere in Scripture).

 

[E.E.N.S]

Bob, how then do you justify tens of thousands of protestant denominations each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit and yet have contradicting ‘truths?’ Since the Holy Spirit is Truth, He cannot contradict Himself.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Robert Heibel:

The Catholic Church believes in a “Just War”

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Christians can’t be soldiers and one of the things soldiers do is fight wars. Consider the following:

When soldiers came to John the Baptist and asked, “And we, what shall we do?” Did John tell them to quit being soldiers? No. He said to them, “Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14)

In Matthew 8:5-14, when a centurian (a commander of 100 soldiers) asked Jesus to heal his distressed servant, Jesus had only praise for the man’s faith and sent him away without any command to quit being a soldier.

Similarly, in the detailed account of the conversion of Cornelius, a centurian of the Italian Cohort in Acts 10, there is no mention of him having to quit being a soldier before or after he received the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told me not to hurt anyone for any reason.

Jesus did say, “Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39) And Jesus certainly live out this precept in His own passion and death. So, your idea as it concerns your own person is very noble. However, elsewhere God makes it clear that He wants us to “defend the fatherless.” (Isaiah 1:17, 23) Consequently, although it is meritious to turn the other cheek when you yourself are assaulted, if you stand idly by and don’t defend the fatherless when he is unjustly assaulted you would hardly be doing God’s will, now would you? A “just war” is simply this precept, “defend the fatherless,” on a much larger scale. A “just war” refers to a defensive war, an action of last resort to defend the fatherless within one nation from the unjust attacks of another nation. Although you personally may not approve of the idea of a “just war”, it is nonetheless based on Scripture. More info about the Catholic understanding of a just war, here.

Also, consider that it is sometimes necessary to hurt (as a form of discipline) in order to save, as the following passages show:He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. (Proverbs 13:24)

13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. (John 2:13-15)

When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Todd Easton:

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Christians can’t be soldiers and one of the things soldiers do is fight wars. Consider the following:

When soldiers came to John the Baptist and asked, “And we, what shall we do?” Did John tell them to quit being soldiers? No. He said to them, “Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14)

In Matthew 8:5-14, when a centurian (a commander of 100 soldiers) asked Jesus to heal his distressed servant, Jesus had only praise for the man’s faith and sent him away without any command to quit being a soldier.

Similarly, in the detailed account of the conversion of Cornelius, a centurian of the Italian Cohort in Acts 10, there is no mention of him having to quit being a soldier before or after he received the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did say, “Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39) And Jesus certainly live out this precept in His own passion and death. So, your idea as it concerns your own person is very noble. However, elsewhere God makes it clear that He wants us to “defend the fatherless.” (Isaiah 1:17, 23) Consequently, although it is meritious to turn the other cheek when you yourself are assaulted, if you stand idly by and don’t defend the fatherless when he is unjustly assaulted you would hardly be doing God’s will, now would you? A “just war” is simply this precept, “defend the fatherless,” on a much larger scale. A “just war” refers to a defensive war, an action of last resort to defend the fatherless within one nation from the unjust attacks of another nation. Although you personally may not approve of the idea of a “just war”, it is nonetheless based on Scripture. More info about the Catholic understanding of a just war, here.

Also, consider that it is sometimes necessary to hurt (as a form of discipline) in order to save, as the following passages show:He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. (Proverbs 13:24)

13The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. (John 2:13-15)

When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

Are you a disciple of John or Jesus? How can you just ignore what Jesus told us?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

E.E.N.S.:

Bob, how then do you justify tens of thousands of protestant denominations each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit and yet have contradicting ‘truths?’ Since the Holy Spirit is Truth, He cannot contradict Himself.

I’m not trying to justify anyone, in fact I don’t know of any Christian church that is teaching or living the Word of God. Each and every one of us is responsible for his or her own soul. We all need to go to God and have Him teach us, we are not responsible for anyone else. Maybe we are responsible to raise are children in the Word of God, but if we are living the Word how could we not?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Gene C.:

Bob,

I know there is nothing that I, or anyone else on this Forum, will be able to say to you that will convince you that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded, because you believe that He is speaking to you personally.

Blessings to you and your family,
Gene

Gene show me where any Church is teaching their people to live the Word of God and you could convince me that it is the church founded by God.
Bob

 

[Robert_Heibel]

***I am sorry for not responding to you before now. I am not a great writer and some things are hard to explain with just a few words. The Holy Spirit let me know that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus, and to non-Catholics that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Christ. I am sure that it would take me too long to explain to a Catholic that all Spirit filled Christians are priest. I will share a Scripture where people just went to their homes and had Eucharist. (Acts 2:46-47) “They went as a body to the temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously; they praised God and were looked up to by everyone. Day by day the Lord added to their community those destined to be saved.” ***

Jesus told me He would teach me about Him and He has, and He will everyone who will open up their hearts and minds and let Him. Everyone need to stop saying no to the idea that Jesus will come to them personally.

Robert: You won’t have that much trouble explaining it to the Catholics here. A huge number of us were raised in the various Protestant sects and are familiar with the teachings. You just going to have a difficult time convincing anyone that they are the Truth. If we believed they were true, we wouldn’t be Catholics. We believe SOME of them are true, but those are the ones that were taken from Catholicism. Most Catholics that post here DO have a “personal relationship” with Jesus (by the way, those words aren’t found anywhere in Scripture).

Again I don’t believe any Chritian church is teaching the whole word of God. I’m personally not a Protestant or Catholic, and I am not for or against any Christian church. My job is just to give a word. It is up to each and everyone on their own to go to God to learn or confirm the truth.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Gene C.:

Robert,

Sorry for the double posts!

In order to track the connection between the Church of Acts and the Catholic Church, you have to go outside the Scriptures. You have to read the writings of the Christians who came right after the Apostolic era, a few of whom are mentioned in the New Testament.

A good book for this is called Upon This Rock, by Steve Ray. It is a THOROUGH study of the Old Testament and New Testament and the writings of the early Christian leaders. This is the book that clinched it for me. Steve’s scholarship is solid.

I’d also like to ask you another question. Jesus told us in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet in Acts 2 on Pentecost, and throughout Acts, we are told that people were baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Which is it? Can we baptize in both formulas, or does Acts supercede Matthew as some Pentecostals teach, or is it the Trinitarian formula? Can you quote a passage from the New Testament that will tell me what to do?

Grace and peace to you,

Gene, I don’t know. Jesus has not brought the subject of baptism up to me or have I ever asked Him about it. I don’t believe what the churches do about baptism matters. What ever way they baptize must be OK.

Once when Peter was talking to people they recieved the Holy Spirit before they were even baptized with water. Another time some disciples of John didn’t have the Holy Spirit and hands were laid on them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but nothing was said about being baptized in water again in Jesus name.

Gene

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

The Holy Spirit certainly teaches us within our hearts. The problem is that we are weak and do not often recognize His voice over that of our own. That leads people to do things in the name of God that are not coming from God. When a sudden learning takes place, without books or other sources, and it is aligned with Catholic teaching, we can pretty much rest assured, the Holy Spirit taught us this lesson. However, the Holy Spirit CANNOT teach a lesson that contradicts the Church that Christ founded because one part of the Trinity will not contradict another.

This is one way that spirits are discerned when cases arise, such as apparitions, locutions, etc. One test it must pass for authenticity is alignement to Catholic teaching. Anything heretical would automatically debunk it as having divine supernatural origin. That leaves us with a human, natural, or diabolical origin.

To help us with that, we are given the gifts of the Magisterium and the Papacy. I call them gifts for a reason.

Think of a compass which points north. This is the direction Jesus points. Those who follow the compass are doing the will of the Lord. But some will follow their own desires and head off east, west, or south out of convenience. In the process, they bend the compass needle so it points to where they are going and proclaim, “I too am heading north”.

If we did not have the Papacy and Magisterium everyone would be going in all kinds of directions. While Jesus expects us to follow our conscience, He aslo has given us Holy Mother Church to help us form that conscience.

More often than not, following the will of God over our own will is a challenge. Too many people take the easy path, follow their own will, and believe they are following the Lord. This is dangerously presumptous. I would rather die and meet my Maker having freely followed, obediently in heart, mind, word, and action, the teachings of the Catholic Church, than to die having followed myself and my desires.

Discernment of spirits is a special area. Something that may be of interest is here:

opusangelorum.org/Priestcircular/Discernofspirits.html

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Robert Heibel:
How dare you just ignore Jesus’ Word?

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Luke 6:27-28) “But I say this to you who are listening: Love Your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too;”

Jesus never gave us the right to defend ourselves. He came here to complete the Word. He is God and the Words he gave us came from God. He told me we were not to hurt anyone, letting me know that we had no right to cause harm to any enemy. When I disciplined my children I sure didn’t harm them.

The word that Jesus has me give is a challenge to live God’s Word more fully.

Yours in Christ,
Bob

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Robert Heibel:
God the Father just stood by and watched His Son be Hung.

 

[Gordon_N]

Robert Heibel:

God the Father just stood by and watched His Son be Hung.

Yes, he did. Actually, he orchestrated the whole thing. It took God the Son to come to us and teach us. It also took God the Son to fulfill the Covenant of the Old Testament. It also took God the Son to allow himself to be persecuted, tortured, and hung on a cross to reconcile all of man’s sins with God the Father. He did not interfere, because this was His plan for our salvation…

Peace,

Gordon

 

[Gordon_N]

Robert Heibel:

Jesus never gave us the right to defend ourselves. He came here to complete the Word. He is God and the Words he gave us came from God. He told me we were not to hurt anyone, letting me know that we had no right to cause harm to any enemy. When I disciplined my children I sure didn’t harm them.

All right. Lets pretend for a moment that we all buy into your “New Reformed Church” thoery, and all fall in line with you as our pastor. Lets also pretend that a radical movement is taking place within a fanatical religious organization called “Islam”, and they are taking over the world, martyring Christians by the tens of thousands. You have two options: Fight them to retain your religious freedoms, or be overwhelmed by their forces and killed. Their intent is to wipe Christianity from the face of the world by the way, and they will not stop until it is done… Deja vu? How about God inspiring and leading men on the battlefield? How about John’s Revelations? Nothing but war, fighting, and death. All in the name of God. What are your thoughts on these points?

Peace,

Gordon

 

[banjo]

Robert Heibel:

Jesus never gave us the right to defend ourselves. He came here to complete the Word. He is God and the Words he gave us came from God.Yours in Christ,
Bob

Bob,

I think you agree that the bible is the word of God, that it came from writers inspired by the Holy Spirit who is God, and that Jesus is God. In Lk 3:14, the bible tells us that John the Baptist gave this advice to soldiers, “Don’t bully anyone. Denounce no one falsely. Be content with your pay.” Among the various duties of soldiers is the unpleasant but necessary duty of defending their country from unjust aggression and in so doing, unfortunately, people lose their lives. John knew this was part of soldering as much as anyone else yet he did not tell them to lay down their arms and leave the army. Yet no where do we find Jesus denouncing or ammending the advice of John to these men. Why is that?
Also further on in St. Luke’s gospel Ch.22, V36, Jesus says, “And the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one.” Now, what is a sword for and why is Jesus saying this? I would like to have your opinion about this.

Peace in Christ,

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Gordon N:

All right. Lets pretend for a moment that we all buy into your “New Reformed Church” thoery, and all fall in line with you as our pastor. Lets also pretend that a radical movement is taking place within a fanatical religious organization called “Islam”, and they are taking over the world, martyring Christians by the tens of thousands. You have two options: Fight them to retain your religious freedoms, or be overwhelmed by their forces and killed. Their intent is to wipe Christianity from the face of the world by the way, and they will not stop until it is done… Deja vu? How about God inspiring and leading men on the battlefield? How about John’s Revelations? Nothing but war, fighting, and death. All in the name of God. What are your thoughts on these points?

Peace,
If Jesus would want His people to die, than they would die. If He wanted His people to live they would live. I believe His will, will be done.
Bob
Gordon

 

[Robert_Heibel]

E.E.N.S.:

You misunderstand the Church, and you also misunderstand the Scriptures…one such example would be this - why do the apostles refer to themselves as fathers (or spiritual fathers?)

God is unchanging; have you read the Old Testament? There sure seems to some ‘hurting’ done to people by God’s will…

The Church owns a bank…well Jesus tells us to give to the poor; how do you suppose that is efficiently managed with billions of people in the world?

Christians are called to be dead to sin, Christ goes so far as to tell us to be perfect like Our Father in heaven is perfect…are you perfect? What happens when we sin? If Jesus tells us not to do something, don’t do it. He is a boss you don’t want to get on the wrong side of.

(And yes, please go on…if need be, when I get the chance I will write you a ‘unabridged version’ of answers for you.)

 

[Gordon_N]

Robert Heibel:

If Jesus would want His people to die, than they would die. If He wanted His people to live they would live. I believe His will, will be done.
Bob

So, what did He tell you about this? Does he want us to die, or does he want us to procreate, fill and tame the earth, and raise our children to believe in Him and His Word?

Peace,

Gordon

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

How dare you just ignore Jesus’ Word?

…Yours in Christ,
Bob

Were you addressing me or someone else?

I don’t know if I missed it, but are you Catholic? If not, that is fine, I just want to know if you are Catholic or not.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Robert Heibel:

Are you a disciple of John or Jesus? How can you just ignore what Jesus told us?

I am a disciple of Jesus but I think that the spirit-filled prophet John the Baptist had some worthwhile things to say too which were completely consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition to John the Baptist’s remarks to the soldier in Luke 3:14 quoted in an earlier post, do you also object to the other things he said at that time to the multitudes, “He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise” or what he said to the tax collectors, “Collect no more than is appointed you” (Luke 3:11-13) ? These precepts are completely consistant with the Christian gospel as are the words he addresses in the next verse to the soldiers to be content with their wages.
Robert Heibel:

God the Father just stood by and watched His Son be Hung.

God the Father allowed His Son to be killed because that was the wish of His Son, as a way of effecting our redemption, and the Father respected His Son’s wishes. Jesus certainly was not powerless to protect Himself if He so wished.

In contrast, the “fatherless” are powerless to protect themselves. The Scriptural precept to “defend the fatherless” as mention in an earlier post, even to the point of using lethal force if all other means have failed seems to be recommended by Jesus himself in the gospels, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.” (Luke 17:2; also see Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42) By these and the other Scripturally based argument of my previous post, it should be clear that the concept of a just war, as the Catholic Church, defines it is completely consistent with what Jesus told us.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Todd Easton:

I am a disciple of Jesus but I think that the spirit-filled prophet John the Baptist had some worthwhile things to say too which were completely consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition to John the Baptist’s remarks to the soldier in Luke 3:14 quoted in an earlier post, do you also object to the other things he said at that time to the multitudes, “He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise” or what he said to the tax collectors, “Collect no more than is appointed you” (Luke 3:11-13) ? These precepts are completely consistant with the Christian gospel as are the words he addresses in the next verse to the soldiers to be content with their wages.

John was still under the Old Law, Jesus hadn’t as of yet completed His work yet.

God the Father allowed His Son to be killed because that was the wish of His Son, as a way of effecting our redemption, and the Father respected His Son’s wishes. Jesus certainly was not powerless to protect Himself if He so wished.

In contrast, the “fatherless” are powerless to protect themselves. The Scriptural precept to “defend the fatherless” as mention in an earlier post, even to the point of using lethal force if all other means have failed seems to be recommended by Jesus himself in the gospels, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.” (Luke 17:2; also see Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42) By these and the other Scripturally based argument of my previous post, it should be clear that the concept of a just war, as the Catholic Church, defines it is completely consistent with what Jesus told us.

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

I quote Scripture where Jesus says straight out something is wrong and you go and search out ways to water down what He said. Is it because you don’t understand how Jesus has everything under control and if we would just stay out of His way everything would be taken care of?