Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[tqualey]

Hi, Irish_Polock,

Great analogy! I am sure Mary Shelly would approve.

I, too, would be interested in reading Rev Kev’s response to this truly challenging question. Dare I say, Rannie would also be interested.

Please, Rev Kev, do not evade this question. I encourage you to respond directly and with your best ability. More than a cup of coffee is riding on this…

God bless

Reverend, does the fact that Baptist view Baptism differently then most other Christians bother you at all, or the fact that we all have different doctrines and dogmas? How can this be so if St. Paul said that there is one “Lord, one faith, one baptism” in reference to the Church? How can there be so many differences in the essential beliefs of the body of Christ? I don’t think St. Paul was asking us to knit together some sort of “Frankenstein”. How would you answer these charges of ecclesiastical chaos, and the unity of the body as a whole?

“There can be only one” Reverend, let it be Rome.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

I think you have hit the nail on the head!

In addition to the sub-sets/divisions there is all of this obvious conflic, contradiction and confusion on doctrine. To even the causual observer, how can anyone really worship the One True God when there is so much divergence?

Claiming that Christ founded all the splinters just makes no sense and has no factual basis.

God bless

*As I see it the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the Jewish Faith just like the NT follows on from the OT with a new Covenant. All other Christian religions are break-aways/sub-sets/divisions of the Christian Church into separate groups.

I have to add that there are Divisions and sub-divisions, watered down as each splinters from the former.

*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kev,

I am reminded of two scriptural verses

Jeremiah 5:18-23

**18
Yet even in those days, says the LORD, I will not wholly destroy you.
19
And when they ask, “Why has the LORD done all these things to us?” say to them, “As you have forsaken me to serve strange gods in your own land, so shall you serve strangers in a land not your own.”
20
Announce this to the house of Jacob, proclaim it in Judah:
21
Pay attention to this, foolish and senseless people Who have eyes and see not, who have ears and hear not.
22
Should you not fear me, says the LORD, should you not tremble before me? I made the sandy shore the sea’s limit, which by eternal decree it may not overstep. Toss though it may, it is to no avail; though its billows roar, they cannot pass.
23
But this people’s heart is stubborn and rebellious; they turn and go away, **

and Mark 8:15-21

**15
He enjoined them, “Watch out, guard against the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”
16
They concluded among themselves that it was because they had no bread.
17
When he became aware of this he said to them, “Why do you conclude that it is because you have no bread? Do you not yet understand or comprehend? Are your hearts hardened?
18
Do you have eyes and not see, ears and not hear? And do you not remember,
19
when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many wicker baskets full of fragments you picked up?” They answered him, “Twelve.”
20
“When I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many full baskets of fragments did you pick up?” They answered (him), “Seven.”
21
He said to them, “Do you still not understand?” **

Many have offered excellent explanations - and done so with kindness and compassion. This response of yours appears dismissive to me and does not really show the basic characteristic of openness to dialogue needed for an honest discussion.

I understand the position you have provided. In my opinion it does not square with the realities presented in the Gospel. You have, as far as I can, simply maintained your position rather than dialogue and address issues. You appear to be neither seeing or hearing what is being addressed to you. I can add nothing further

God bless

I don’t see where all this points to Jesus starting the Catholic Church. It was Christianity a Christian Church that he started. Now a Christian is what?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

I have to differ with you on this point. I really do not think he is gloating or sticking out his tongue. I do, however, think he has closed his eyes and ears - and this is very sad.

God bless

*Christ founded the Christian Church which later was referred to as the Catholic Church in the 1st century because it was universal.

I don’t think this debate is a contest. It is lamentable that you like to gloat and stick out your tongue at every opportunity rev. It doesn’t become anyone.

 

[rinnie]

Jesus said: John 10:9 I am the door anyone who comes into the fold THROUGH ME shall be safe. He shall go IN and OUT and shall find pasturage.

Did he say he was A door, No he said THE DOOR.

Did he say his TEACHING was the door, or his Example was the door? No Jesus said he PERSONALLY was the unique entrance to the fulness of the Godlife.

No one comes to the Father except BY ME.

Lets talk about the light. Who is the light what is the light?

The old Man Simeon told us. A light that will be a revelaion to the heathen, and glory to thy people Israel. Luke 2:32 Is that not what he said when he held the Baby Jesus in his arms.

What did Jesus say as an adult. I am the LIGHT of the world no follower of mine shall wonder in the dark. he shall have the light of life!!

Well isn’t that something to think about now. He called himself the Temple, now he affirmed that HE is the GLORY and the LIGHT of that TEMPLE!!

 

[po18guy]

Nicene Creed aside, the Council of Nicea was not convened to unify the Church. There was only one Church.now.

The Nicene creed was developed solely to combat heresy. It clearly states what true Christians believe. It was medicinal in nature, not unitive.

 

[Erich]

When did the disciples and Jesus become Catholic?

Wikipedia notes, “When Ignatius wrote the Letter to the Smyrnaeans in about the year 107 and used the word catholic, he used it as if it were a word already in use to describe the Church. This has led many scholars to conclude that the appellation Catholic Church with its ecclesial connotation may have been in use as early as the last quarter of the 1st century.”

But, we can deduce that the term was in use even earlier than that. “Ecclesia kath’olos” is the Greek term used to describe the already existing church in Acts 9:31. We know that the Acts of the Apostles had already been written by the time Luke and Paul arrived in Rome – and Paul was martyred no later than 68 AD – so we see that the term had to have been in common use well prior to 68 AD (and, probably, well prior to 64 AD).

Of course, the already-existing church described as “Ecclesia kath’olos” in Acts 9:31 is the very same church that officially began on Pentecost. It seems to me that that’s as likely a date as any for when the Apostles officially became Catholic

 

[mangy_dog]

*I get sick and tired of these silly tirades about the CC being rich and full of money.

Each year every country in the world has a collection which goes to Rome. I remember a few years ago we collected just under R1 000 000 which was sent to Rome. Do you know how much we got back? R38 000 000 to help the poor! No other institution in the world can compare with the Catholic Church when it comes to works of charity. The hospitals it runs throughout the world, the schools, clinics, centres for the aged (17 500 - I remember that one), etc etc.

Many people leave money to the Church in their will. Over the years great artists have given of their talent to the Vatican (Michael Angelo) etc. It is priceless but all for the glory of God. The Pope lives in an apartment which cannot be considered luxurious by any means.

The Church reaches out to all peoples irrespective of race or religion.

*

I hear ya’,

That’s why I keep my answers “standard”. For all those silly tirades. As if the church were dirt poor and without property - everyone would be stampeding the doors to become a catholic.

 

[tqualey]

Hi. LaymanX,

Do you have a link for that 3rd canon?

God bless

I do not know of any Church that was strictly born “1500 years later.” The idea of a “Roman Catholic Church” was born at the same time the idea of a “Reformation Church” was born. I suppose you mean a Church that ceased to see itself as strictly under the authority of the bishop of the See of Rome? The problem with this definition is that, this would include the Assyrian Church, the Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, and all the other denominations.

However, back to the original question. Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? I would take this to mean something like: Did Jesus start “the Church that was strictly under the authority of Peter and those who stand in his place, and which precludes the notion that Peter is primus inter pares (eng. “first among equals”)”? I would have to say that it depends on how we interpret the 3rd canon of the second Ecumenical Council. So the answer is: Maybe! I’m still working this out myself.

In Christ,

Francis

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Erich,

Hold on a minute, now … are you saying it wasn’t the church formed 1500 years later … or last week at the local strip mall?

Predating 107AD, eh?!! Yeah, that sounds right to me!

Thanks for the clarification.

God bless

Wikipedia notes, “When Ignatius wrote the Letter to the Smyrnaeans in about the year 107 and used the word catholic, he used it as if it were a word already in use to describe the Church. This has led many scholars to conclude that the appellation Catholic Church with its ecclesial connotation may have been in use as early as the last quarter of the 1st century.”

But, we can deduce that the term was in use even earlier than that. “Ecclesia kath’olos” is the Greek term used to describe the already existing church in Acts 9:31. We know that the Acts of the Apostles had already been written by the time Luke and Paul arrived in Rome – and Paul was martyred no later than 68 AD – so we see that the term had to have been in common use well prior to 68 AD (and, probably, well prior to 64 AD).

Of course, the already-existing church described as “Ecclesia kath’olos” in Acts 9:31 is the very same church that officially began on Pentecost. It seems to me that that’s as likely a date as any for when the Apostles officially became Catholic

 

[rinnie]

The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hirearchial society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She us ONE, yet formed of two coponents, HUMAN AND DIVINE. That is her Mystery which only faith can accept!!

The Church is also a sacrament of Salvation the sign and the instrument of the communion of GOD and MEN!!

When his visible presence was taken from the Apostles he did not leave the Apostles orphans. He promised to remain with then until the end of time. he SENT them HIS SPIRIT!!!

The comparison of the CHURCH with the BODY cast light on the intimate bond between CHris and HIS CHURCH. No only is she gathered around him, she is UNITED IN HIM, in his body.

3 aspects of the Church as the body of Christ.

1. The unity of all her members with eachother as a result of their union with Christ.
2. Christ as the head of the body.
3. The Church as the bride of Christ.

As my fellow Protestants brothers and sister say:: AMEN!!

 

[Cinette]

Semantics, and I have to say very easy to see through. I guess this is a win/lose ‘contest’ to you rather than a sharing/understanding experience that includes an honest discussion. I say discussion because it’s not so much a debate with the seemingly ‘bait and switch’ statements you’ve used, not only to disagee with Catholics for the sake of disagreeing but also in what seems to be a fashion to inflame Catholics.

Above is your quote where you state, '…even Catholics are Christians. Below is another quote where you clearly separate Catholic and Christian.

I tried to correct the statement when it was made and said there is no Catholic religion. Catholics are Christians. I also told you Christ started a Christian Church and the men of the Church used a language of the times and called it the Catholic Church. I even provided Greek translation of scriptures to show you the Greek terms Catholic was derived from. But you didn’t find that important enough to respond to in order to continue this charade.

The first Church was recognized as the Catholic Church, it still exists today and all Christian Churches have roots that run to it.

All Christians are part of the body of Christ, which is His Church. I pray for those who would do everything in their power to continue to divide the body of Christ, which is against what the scriptures teach.

Another important part of this discussion that no one can intelligently get around is the fact that the early Church was one. There was no acceptable variations in doctrines.

---

*Thank you for your very good summary/overview. Yes, certain people cannot engage in debate without turning it into a contest. It is a pity.

*

 

[maturespirit]

Jesus introduced the Kingdom of God. The gospels only mention the Church a few times. Some theologians think Paul actually started the Church; or developed a formal ecclesiology if you like. The religious system that became the Catholic Church was mostly the institutions of men. The spiritual reality that is the Church was created by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Ephesians speaks of the Church being the mystery of the union of both Jew and Gentile in one man in Christ. The Catholic Church was started by Jesus to the extent that the CC preserves the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God and administers the sacraments faithfully.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Hi. LaymanX,

Do you have a link for that 3rd canon?

God bless

Canon III.

The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome. (7 ecumenical councils - THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS)

 

[rikkk1958]

It is difficult for Protestants to stay Catholics when they become Ministers or Pastors. There is so much at stake, especially if they have already founded a “Church” with many followers. All I can say is that, they if sincere in serving God can become a good Christian “but” because if they may be consciously ignoring the command of Jesus Christ then they have that burden to carry for the rest of their lives. If they really believed that they have fullness of truth because of how they understand then they can be judged as such. Knowledge becomes a stumbling block for the real Truth. This is the reason why we believed that knowledge is not a prerequisite for salvation because all we have to do is follow what had been laid down by those whom Christ instructed to build His Church so that “all” will be saved.

I like the link below:
youtube.com/watch?v=8MvfAJ7ap8s

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

Now the real question is: taste great or less filling? Hmmmmmmmmm … those are the kind of questions we need more of, eh?

I honestly do not see how you can be at fault for any remarks Rev Kev made. Please - do not beat yourself up on this matter.

The Catholic Church was created by God - in the same way that Mary is a creature. Neither the Catholic Church nor Mary could in any way be considered to be the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Christ - True God and True Man united with the His Bride - the Catholic Church with His Divine Love. He promised that the Love between the Father and the Son - the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity - the Holy Spirit - that the Gates of Hell would not prevail and the Catholic Church would always be protected.

As Catholics we believe in the Mystical Body of Christ - and when Saul of Tarsus was killing those who believed in Jesus - Saul was actually attacking the Mystical Body of Christ. Here is a link that may be helpful: newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm

Christ is the Head of the Church. He delegated the Authority of God to Peter to bind and lose - and gave Peter the Keys as a symbol of that Authority. When Christ rose from the dead, He was still the Head of the Church - but now He has a Glorified Body. Christ is still in charge of His Church, the Pope is the visible leader or the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

Hopefully, I have explained this correctly - and you feel a little better…

Ah, I think I’ll put the glasses in the freezer…

God bless

Sorry bud, but now coffee is off, could we make it a cold beer instead. I need it. By the way I have to say I feel it is my fault about Rev Kev comparing The Church to the 2nd person of the Trinity which is Jesus.

The Church is Jesus Christ. we know that because he told us that. Now the question is when Jesus was here on earth was he the Church in a human body?

Now when he rose from the dead and was being persecuted by Saul did he say saul was persecuting HIM or the Church? Did Saul have to persecute him in person (human form) to persecute him. OR could Saul persecute him in another way?

Is the Church human and Divine? Is Jesus human and divine?

 

[benedictus2]

I do not know of any Church that was strictly born “1500 years later.” The idea of a “Roman Catholic Church” was born at the same time the idea of a “Reformation Church” was born.

But the “Roman” was only a pejorative addition that the Anglican appended to the term Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has never referred to herself the Roman Catholic Church.

She was only ever the The Catholic Church.

I suppose you mean a Church that ceased to see itself as strictly under the authority of the bishop of the See of Rome?

No, I mean the church that was founded in the 1500s. These issues are not merely a matter of “seeing once self” as benig under the Bishop of the See of Rome. There was doctrinal differences so clearly a different church was born.

The problem with this definition is that, this would include the Assyrian Church, the Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, and all the other denominations.

Yes, so long as they are not in union with the Catholic Church.

The Church of Christ is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

However, back to the original question. Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? I would take this to mean something like: Did Jesus start “the Church that was strictly under the authority of Peter and those who stand in his place, and which precludes the notion that Peter is primus inter pares (eng. “first among equals”)”? I would have to say that it depends on how we interpret the 3rd canon of the second Ecumenical Council. So the answer is: Maybe! I’m still working this out myself.

In Christ,

Francis

And how do you interpret this?

 

[benedictus2]

People please. Although I do thank those of who who say kind things about me, may I please remind you this thread is not about Rev. Kevin someone who was raised a Catholic and became Baptist. This thread is about Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church.

Thank you for re-iterating that.

Now can we get back to the Church post Acts because any discussion of the Church has to leave the Bible timeline wise since it obviously extended beyond 30 AD.

And in addition to your definiton of Church, I think we have a very good definition in 1 Tim 3:15 of what God’s Church is - it is God’s household not householdS.

 

[benedictus2]

Canon III.

The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome. (7 ecumenical councils - THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS)

Would be interesting how he interprets that one.

 

[benedictus2]

So I am right Christ built a Christian Church and not the Catholic Church. Now the Christian Church was given the name Catholic to say that Christianity is universal. Well this answers the question of “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” NO Christ build/started a Christian Church. :extrahappy::dancing:

Hi Rev,

I have clarified this several times but you have not responded to my posts. You hate it when I say that you keep saying things over and over again even when it has been refuted and yet here is another example.

So here it is again

The Church that Chris established was indeed Christian in nature (what else could it be since it is after all established by Him) but one thing that comes out very early on is that it is Catholic.

**As I have said over and over again in my posts, there were several churches mentioned in Acts (those in Rome, Ephesus, Antioch, etc, etc) but they all belonged to the same Church. If this were not so, we would not have had a council in Jerusalem to trash out a central doctrine.
**
So please, if you think you have grounds with regards your believe, then refute this. Don’t just keep saying something over and over again.

I am still awaiting your response to my other posts.

So you are quite wrong already by saying that Jesus did not start a Catholic Church because even in Acts we see a very Catholic Church indeed.

Peace!

Cory