Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[GaryTaylor]

Hi Tom.

God Bless, Gary

 

[benedictus2]

Unfortunately Tom you and I will disagree on the validity of the priesthood. I’m sure you are going down the apostolic succession route to a valid priesthood. But that’s fine. Just remember just because you think your priesthood is valid or in apostolic succession doesn’t make it so either.

Brilliant. You hit the nail right on the head. It is not our belief that make something valid or not, there has to be a reference outside of our personal belief that makes it true.

So, what do you think makes a priesthood valid?

The statement that Luther wanted nothing to do with the organizational church is completely inaccurate. Rejecting the absolute authority of the papacy is different than getting rid of the entire organization.

But even Luther acknowledged the legitimacy of the Papacy. When he posted the 99 thesis he still acknowleged the legitimacy of the papacy.

So the question is, why should his belief later on be more valid than when he posted the 99 thesis. Who decides?

And if you want to define real presence of Christ being there only in the fact of having what you define as a valid priest than good for you. I question your definition of a valid priest, however I don’t believe that his questionable line of succession does not deny the real presence in your church.

I do not deny that Christ is present in your church. Christ does not abandon those who decided to remove themselves from His church. But this situation is all the same contrary to His will.

 

[benedictus2]

So what are you getting at here, because of “whatever you bind” means that if the pope sanctions the selling of indulgences that it is OK?

No. That indulgences is okay. It is related to alms giving. Indulgences is a correct doctrine. The some people in the Church distorted this and abused it does not make it a wrong doctrine.

The fact of the matter that people even in this forum can not make a judgement of certainty what papal pronouncement is a matter of teaching and matter of opinion.

What do you mean by this?

It is even muddier outside of the church and can you imagine what it was like for the populace in 1517? Just because the official teaching of the church says one thing and if the pope sanctions the actions that are clearly wrong, how is one supposed to decided what is proper and what is not?

Okay, let’s confine ourselves to those who did donate to this cause? Do you think that somehow these people were misled as to what actually happens. Do you think that somehow, because of corruption, alms giving is all of a sudden wrong?

If the pope comes out tomorrow and says “Condoms for everyone” what is going to be your first reaction?

I will say that he did not say it because the Pope will never contradict Church teaching.

That is exactly what happened with the hoo ha over condom when the book Light of the World was released.

My brother was convinced he said it was okay but I said I will research that first because I highly doubt it. And I was right.

 

[tqualey]

Hey, Benedictus2,

Did MikeofFaith answer this post and it just get by me … or … did old MikeofFaith just take leave?

Hmmmmmmm Rev Kev has been noted for his absence, too.

I do not want to jump to conclusions, but it would appear that they have simply allowed their arguments to drift away like smoke…

Who knows, maybe they will rise to occasion - not with the usual evasion but with actual effort to answer these questions

God bless

Brilliant. You hit the nail right on the head. It is not our belief that make something valid or not, there has to be a reference outside of our personal belief that makes it true.

So, what do you think makes a priesthood valid?

But even Luther acknowledged the legitimacy of the Papacy. When he posted the 99 thesis he still acknowleged the legitimacy of the papacy.

So the question is, why should his belief later on be more valid than when he posted the 99 thesis. Who decides?

I do not deny that Christ is present in your church. Christ does not abandon those who decided to remove themselves from His church. But this situation is all the same contrary to His will.

 

[PbloPicasso]

… It is not our belief that make something valid or not, there has to be a reference outside of our personal belief that makes it true.

Precisely stated.

 

[rev_kevin]

tqualey;7555631]

Hmmmmmmm Rev Kev has been noted for his absence, too.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM seems you speak too fast. Did you ever think that people get busy, that they have families to tend to, that they may be busy doing other things.

I do not want to jump to conclusions, but it would appear that they have simply allowed their arguments to drift away like smoke…

Nothing has drifted away. I stick by what I said, “Jesus did not start the CC.”

Who knows, maybe they will rise to occasion - not with the usual evasion but with actual effort to answer these questions

We have its just not the answer you want to hear.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kev,

Welcome back! Sorry if I jumped the gun there … hope all is well with you and your family.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM seems you speak too fast. Did you ever think that people get busy, that they have families to tend to, that they may be busy doing other things.

Nothing has drifted away. I stick by what I said, “Jesus did not start the CC.”

We have its just not the answer you want to hear.

Actually, sticking to what you have said has never been a problem. Providing a logical reason for this has continued to elude your posts. I told you that a straight line can be drawn connecting Peter (the same Peter in Matthew 16:18) to Benedict XVI - and I provided a reference. I then invited you to draw your own line from Peter and show where it went. Let me re-invite you to do try this activity. It will give you a chronlogical sequence for th Bishops of Rome.

Try this with any other religion and you quickly find that prior to the 16th Century, their origin was the Catholic Church - the Church founded by Chrsit on Peter. And, it was from this Catholic Church that they willfully separated.

Merely saying that “Jesus did not start the CC” is in the same category as saying, “The moon is made of cheese” both statements lack any kind of logical basis for being presented, much less defended. you are right, of course, it is not the answer I want to hear - but, that is because you simply repeat the same statement as though repitition were going to make your opinion transform into objective fact. Please. Move beyond merely repeating a negative and produce some evidence. And, no, you have not clearly responded with facts in previous posts - just opinions.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

 

[PbloPicasso]

Hey, Benedictus2,

Hmmmmmmm Rev Kev has been noted for his absence, too.

Hmmmmmmmmm, are we taking roll now?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PbloPicasso,

Maybe. I’m still waiting for Rev Kev to present a reasoned arguemnt as opposed to just restating that he does not believe Jesus started the Catholic Churh.

And, then there is MikeofFaith, who may wind up on the ‘Faithfully Departed’ list…

So, we shall just have to wait and see what develops.

While waiting … tell me PbloPicasso, what is the most impressive proof you have that Christ started the Catholic Church?

God bless

Hmmmmmmmmm, are we taking roll now?

 

[bill1519]

The same way I screwed up but was never caught with what I said. I said that God started the CC not Jesus but he was through Jesus. If anyone wanted to get me all that had to say was simply this. How can God start the CC and Not Jesus. Are they not the same person.

But I slid through with that one. Let me go back and see what my buddy said.

Sorry Rinnie, They are NOT the same person. Three Persons, One in Being.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry Rinnie, They are NOT the same person. Three Persons, One in Being.

Huh? I agree that there are 3 Persons but they are still made up of ONE GOD. I agree that the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, but they are all Equal to God. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There is still only ONE GOD.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie-

I wasn’t on the defense with this question at all. It was a genuine and honest question.

My Bad!

 

[rinnie]

No I don’t believe that the HS has abandoned the church, nor do I think it has jettisoned Rome, but I do believe that at times during the life of the church, the church has done a bad job at listening to the HS.

So then if The Church has done a bad job of listening to the Holy Spirit as you say, then it would be fair to say the the Gades of Hell prevailed and the devil won right?

And if that is true then Jesus lied to us then right??

Because Jesus promised that he would be here always with us, until the end of time. Now if you are saying that the People of the Church have done a bad Job listening to the Holy Spirit and continues to sin, I will give you that. But if you said the Church has failed then the Holy Spirit has failed. And Christ has failed also. Because salvation is from Jesus Christ.

We were promised that the Advocate the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. Now Jesus said that when his Apostles would talk it would be in HIS VOICE they would speak. So how could they have failed???

 

[bill1519]

Originally Posted by rev kevin
Jesus started the church and the church is a group of believers that are Christians,even Catholics are Christian. Therefore Christ started Christianity. If not then who did?

So I am right Christ built a Christian Church and not the Catholic Church. Now the Christian Church was given the name Catholic to say that Christianity is universal. Well this answers the question of “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” NO Christ build/started a Christian Church. :extrahappy::dancing:

When my Mother gave birth to Me, For 1 week my parents couldn’t decide on a name! Who was I before they named me? Who did they give birth too? I’m so confused

 

[rinnie]

Or Mike we are back to square one. WHO is the Church? I say its Jesus joining us to his Father in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit leading us by his teaching.

BUt it seems you are blaming the Holy Spirit for either the actions of the leaders of the Church or worse you think the Leaders of the Church are the Holy Spirit?

Because both are just plain wrong. The Leaders are Just given the Gift of the Holy Spirit by the Sacrament of Holy Orders which make them one in mind with Christ when it comes to the teachings.

But just because they have the power of the HS to teach and forgive sins, etc. does not mean they are perfect like Christ. Where did Peter or Paul or any Apostle ever deny sin?

For goodness sakes the Pope goes to confession daily. Or maybe I misuderstood your point completely and you can show me. Thanks.

Gotta Roll BUt Happy V D Day to all. Gotta go get my present now

 

[rinnie]

Now Kev my buddy you gotta calm down a little BUt I do love the energy in your response.

But Kev if Jesus started a Christian Church, and we are part of it, and we are the Catholic Church then how are we out?

Now I agree that anyone who follows Christ is part of his Church. But and this is a big but, to be part of his Church does not mean you have the fullness of Christ.

While I agree as the Pope teaches us, anyone who has any of the Sacraments are part of us, and we are part of one another through Christ. But here is the problem we are not in communion with one another. Not PERFECT COMMUNION.

Thats where we gotta be. In order to have Salvation Christ united himself with his Church with the Sacraments. That is why the RCC is the true Church. It has everything that is possible to free us from sin.

It has Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, forgivenss of Sins, Baptism. etc. Jesus gave us 7 Sacraments to save us. Not just 2. See what I mean?

Ask yourself can Your Priest forgive your sins and give you absolution? Mine can, by the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Does your Church have the Living Body of CHrist in the form of the Eucharist? Mine does.

A Church is just a building if it does not have the Living Christ and the Sacraments to save your from eternal death. It is the Sacraments that come alive that make the Church Christ, and make the Church Catholic. Anyway got to Go, Have a great VD Day Rev. Have a wondeful time with your family.

 

[rinnie]

When my Mother gave birth to Me, For 1 week my parents couldn’t decide on a name! Who was I before they named me? Who did they give birth too? I’m so confused

I guess you got your name from the Hospital. The nurse said to your mom here is you BILL Sorry I couldn’t let that one go by!!

 

[PbloPicasso]

When my Mother gave birth to Me, For 1 week my parents couldn’t decide on a name! Who was I before they named me? Who did they give birth too? I’m so confused

Exactly my convictions. The Church actually could be called several names using scripture alone. The people were called Christian at Antioch, it says the first time the name was used. So “what were they before then”, knuckleheads?

 

[rev_kevin]

rinnie;7558567]Now Kev my buddy you gotta calm down a little BUt I do love the energy in your response.

But Kev if Jesus started a Christian Church, and we are part of it, and we are the Catholic Church then how are we out?

rinnie: I never said the CC was out. They are a Christian group as well. See I believe that Jesus started a Church but not the CC. I believe His Church is composed of all those who believe in Him. Not a named Church.

Now I agree that anyone who follows Christ is part of his Church. But and this is a big but, to be part of his Church does not mean you have the fullness of Christ.

Who’s to say who has the fullness of Christ.

While I agree as the Pope teaches us, anyone who has any of the Sacraments are part of us, and we are part of one another through Christ. But here is the problem we are not in communion with one another. Not PERFECT COMMUNION.

And we never will be as long as we see eachother as not being a part of His Church.

Thats where we gotta be. In order to have Salvation Christ united himself with his Church with the Sacraments. That is why the RCC is the true Church. It has everything that is possible to free us from sin.

What does Jesus say about being free from sin?

Ask yourself can Your Priest forgive your sins and give you absolution? Mine can, by the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

No I don’t believe any Priest can forgive sins, only God has that right.

Does your Church have the Living Body of CHrist in the form of the Eucharist? Mine does.

No but you believe he is present in the Eucharist and we believe its just a symbol.

A Church is just a building if it does not have the Living Christ and the Sacraments to save your from eternal death. It is the Sacraments that come alive that make the Church Christ, and make the Church Catholic. Anyway got to Go, Have a great VD Day Rev. Have a wondeful time with your family.

You also have a very good VD.

 

[benedictus2]

rinnie: I never said the CC was out. They are a Christian group as well. See I believe that Jesus started a Church but not the CC. I believe His Church is composed of all those who believe in Him. Not a named Church.

But in a previous post you have shown that to be not true. By your definition of Church you have shown that be not true.

So how can you justify believing that Jesus started One Christian Church when that has already been proven to be false?

We are not one Christian Church Rev Kevin, we are different Christian Churches. But Christ established only one.

So perhaps you can tell me which one it is.