Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[CEM5]

Exactly my convictions. The Church actually could be called several names using scripture alone. The people were called Christian at Antioch, it says the first time the name was used. So “what were they before then”, knuckleheads?

They were called people of the Way before they were called Christians.

Acts 9:2 NRSA
and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

 

[rev_kevin]

benedictus2;7559629]
But in a previous post you have shown that to be not true. By your definition of Church you have shown that be not true.

Show me where I said the CC was not a Chrisitan Church.

So how can you justify believing that Jesus started One Christian Church when that has already been proven to be false?

False in your eyes not in mine.

We are not one Christian Church Rev Kevin, we are different Christian Churches. But Christ established only one.

Yes he established only one Church and I have already given what that Church was.

So perhaps you can tell me which one it is.

Already have in many of my posts. So why ask again?

 

[Cinette]

So then if The Church has done a bad job of listening to the Holy Spirit as you say, then it would be fair to say the the Gades of Hell prevailed and the devil won right?

And if that is true then Jesus lied to us then right??

Because Jesus promised that he would be here always with us, until the end of time. Now if you are saying that the People of the Church have done a bad Job listening to the Holy Spirit and continues to sin, I will give you that. But if you said the Church has failed then the Holy Spirit has failed. And Christ has failed also. Because salvation is from Jesus Christ.

We were promised that the Advocate the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. Now Jesus said that when his Apostles would talk it would be in HIS VOICE they would speak. So how could they have failed???

:thumbsup:Exactly. It is so simple that I cannot understand why some people struggle with this truth.

 

[benedictus2]

Show me where I said the CC was not a Chrisitan Church.

That’s not what I was referring to.
You said: “I believe His Church is composed of all those who believe in Him. Not a named Church.”

And so I said that you have proven that wrong when you posted the Chronology and when you defined what Church meant. If you remember, I showed you that there is not such thing as one Christian Church based on your definition.

Then you posted the Chronology and you said that you believe this to be true apart from the statement that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded on earth.

But, that chronology’s first line said exactly that: that the Catholic Church was the Church that Christ founded on earth. So why would you post that if you do not believe this to be true?

Yes he established only one Church and I have already given what that Church was.

Not according to the Chronology you posted and not according to your definition of what Church is.

Already have in many of my posts. So why ask again?

Because you go this way and that

**If you stick to your definition, then there is no such thing as one Christian Church **so the only answer would be that there are different Christian Churches but only one is the true Christian Church that Christ founded.

 

[hartleymartin]

“Catholic” comes from the Greek word for “Universal”.

The Roman Rite of the Catholic Church is one of several Rites, of which each Rite is made up of “Churches”, which were based in Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.

What must be disambiguated is the term “Catholic” from “Roman Catholic”.

It developed very early on in the Church that Peter, being the leader of the Apostles held a special position, as when Jesus Christ gave authority to the Apostles, he spoke to Peter, naming him as their leader. Hence, the Bishop of Rome, is regarded as “First Amongst Equals”.

 

[Cinette]

Show me where I said the CC was not a Chrisitan Church.

False in your eyes not in mine.

Yes he established only one Church and I have already given what that Church was.

Already have in many of my posts. So why ask again?

Here we go round the mulberry bush the Mulberry bush, :banghead:the Mulberry bush…Here we go round the mulberry bush…:whacky:

 

[placido]

Nothing has drifted away. I stick by what I said, “Jesus did not start the CC.”

Hey, Rev Kevin,
Do you believe that the Reformation was a historical fact? If so, what was being “reformed” and why?

placido

 

[Cinette]

Hey, Rev Kevin,
Do you believe that the Reformation was a historical fact? If so, what was being “reformed” and why?

placido

rev kevin does not know the answer to your question. Either that or he has already answered it somewhere…

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Coming close to that magic 1000 mark folks.
We better wrap it up with any closing remarks.

 

[placido]

rev kevin does not know the answer to your question. Either that or he has already answered it somewhere…

I know he does not know the answer to that question but let us allow some time to see what he comes up with.

placido

 

[benedictus2]

Well, since the moderator has given us given us advance notice of the end times for this thread here is my attempt at a summary of what we’ve come up with so far.

I think we’ve settled the question of whether Peter was in Rome. He was.

I think we’ve settled the Petros/Petra non Issue. Peter is the Rock and this is the rock upon which Christ built His Church.

Sorry but I have not followed the debate on Baptism and the other sacraments because I didn’t think that relevant as I don’t think it was said that this is the sacrament for membership in Christ’s Church.

I think it is fairly accepted that the Church is a group of people with the same belief as Rev Kevin defined.

Rev Kevin tried to use this to say that Christ established One Christian Church because we all believe in One God. To which I replied that if this is the “same belief” requirement as per his definition then we can classify Jews and Muslims as Christians.

So as far as the definition goes, no there is NO One Christian Church since all denominations have different beliefs bar some common ones. The doctrines that differ are quite significant depending on how far removed they are from the Catholic Church.

Since there is NOT One Christian Church then we need to determine: Where is the Church of Acts now? Where is the Church that was birthed at Pentecost.

With the myriad of Christian Churches the only way to determine that is to study history.

Rev Kevin put forth a Chronology that stated that all the other denominations were founded long after (1500 years long after) Pentecost. So we can discount them because nowhere in the Bible did it say that Jesus will build His Church with Luther, or Calvin, or Wesley or Smith or King Henry.

MikeofFaith responded with both Catholic and Orthodox (though if thinks so I wonder why he is not in either since his argument that Lutheran is part of the Catholic Church is just absurd. Everyone knows the Lutheran Church is not part of the Catholic.

So now we have two: Catholic and Orthodox.

Which one fits the bill of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic? Both are Holy and Apostolic.

I am not sure if we can see the Orthodox Churches as one since they are more national Churches than one universal Church.

So based on the foregoing posts, I think it is conclusive. The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded on Peter almost 2000 years ago.

The 1054 schism is being debated on another thread but as Pope John Paul said we are two lungs of the Church. May these two lungs breath together soon.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rev Kev. Good question. Jesus is who warned us we must have the fullness of the faith.

He said the Church must be One. Now one means we must all be united in one mind, just like the Apostles and the Holy Spirit are unitied in one Mind.

The second is the Church must be Holy as Christ is Holy. Now what makes the Church Holy is the Sacraments. Remember I told you thats real important. That is how Christ is still working today saving us.

Now the Church must be Catholic. Catholic means Universal. Which means for all of us. Before in the O.T the Temple was just for the Jews remember. The Gentiles were not welcome. But remember ST Peter said Baptise everyone, no one is excluded. Thats why we say Universal. We have this song we sing alot in Church. It says ALL are welcome in this house. Its pretty neat.

And the Last is Apostolic. That means we must have All of the teaching’s of Christ. What is written and what is given by word of mouth. Thats of course SS and ST.

But we are all united together in Christ Rev Kev, I agree with you. And we are more alike then not. But we want to try to become Perfectly United together in one another as Christ is perfectly United with His Church and then we call all come together and be perfectly united with him and one another in the Eucharist. That is what we are trying to do.

We are called to come together at ONE table. Just like the APostles were all together at One Table at the Last Supper eating together with Christ the bread and wine that gives us eternal life.

You have grown quite a bit in your thinking my friend, and your effort is wonderful. But you have a long way to go.

But don’t feel bad, My Dad told me we will have to study and pray until the day we die to learn all that God has out there to teach us. So you are not alone. We are all in the same boat!! We are comming to a end on this one so see you again on another thread. God Bless you Rev, and all reading this.

 

[rev_kevin]

Its been a nice chat with some of ya’ll and some of ya’ll, well, you are less then nice.:tsktsk: I stand by my saying Jesus did not start the CC although there is some compelling arguements for it, I just don’t see the connection.

 

[guanophore]

They are a Christian group as well. See I believe that Jesus started a Church but not the CC. I believe  His Church is composed of all those who believe in Him. Not a named Church.

Why do you suppose all those who believed in Him started describing their Church as “Catholic” within the first few decades?

Who’s to say who has the fullness of Christ.

Christ. Scripture says the fullness of Christ is in the Church He founded.

And we never will be as long as we see eachother as not being a part of His Church.

I agree. But the Catholic Catechism instructs us to receive our separated brethren as belonging to Christ, even though they embrace heresies.

No I don’t believe any Priest can forgive sins, only God has that right.

This is true. It is a divine right that Jesus gave to the Apostles when He commissioned them to forgive whose sins they remit, and to retain those they do not. What an awesome privilege and responsibility!

What do you suppose it means when scripture says God gave this authority “to men”?

No but you believe he is present in the Eucharist and we believe its just a symbol.

That’s one of those heresies I was talkin’ about.

 

[benedictus2]

Its been a nice chat with some of ya’ll and some of ya’ll, well, you are less then nice.:tsktsk: I stand by my saying Jesus did not start the CC although there is some compelling arguements for it, I just don’t see the connection.

Can you let us know where the connection is missing in these compelling arguments?

 

[rev_kevin]

Can you let us know where the connection is missing in these compelling arguments?

I see the church as the believers of Christ. Not Catholic, Baptist and so on. We are all a part of his church, believers. You can alll it whatever you like but the Church is the believers. You see his church as the CC I see it as the believers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I see the church as the believers of Christ. Not Catholic, Baptist and so on. We are all a part of his church, believers. You can alll it whatever you like but the Church is the believers. You see his church as the CC I see it as the believers.

Here’s where I see the difference. The Catholic Church is made up of believers. All Protestant believers have roots back through the Catholic Church. To argue otherwise is to say Catholics are not believers. We are all Christians through our faith. We are all Catholics just at different degrees or levels

 

[benedictus2]

I see the church as the believers of Christ. Not Catholic, Baptist and so on. We are all a part of his church, believers. You can alll it whatever you like but the Church is the believers. You see his church as the CC I see it as the believers.

But Rev Kevin, you gave a definition of what Church is. How can you give a definition and then go against that definition?

If you say that a Church is a group of people with the same belief, then as I have said before there is no One Christian Church but different Christian Churches. So therefore this Church as a group of believers of Christ just does not exist.

Christ founded a Church with visible unity not one amorphous conglomeration of people of disparate beliefs.

I think this is one important point that you have not really addressed.

So since there are only different Christian Churches not One Christian Church these can’t all possibly claim to belong to Christ’s Church.

At some point this is something that you will need to really think about.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Church Jesus built upon Peter (Mt. 16:17…) is the body of Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human, she is visible and invisible united to one head Jesus himself in heaven and Peter His Vicar on earth.

How can different baptist’s church’s and other non catholic christians, all partake of the same loaf when each has its own loaf (christian belief’s) to partake from.

From the epistles of Paul who teaches we are one body who partake of the one bread. Catholics world wide for the past 2000 years on earth and in heaven are “ALL” part of the one loaf, because we “ALL” partake of the one loaf himself Jesus Christ. This unity of believers in Jesus Christ makes every Catholic living and in heaven one body in Jesus Christ.

The Church is “ONE” body of Christ. The church is never a community of believers believing different from one another in Christ, the latter have redefined the biblical definition of Church (=body of Christ) to mean any one who believes in Christ makes himself a Church. The early church fathers would of trampled all over this new definition of Church.

The evil one and all his demons believe in Jesus, does this mean the serpent and the demons belong to the “church of believers” ?

1Corinthians 10:15
I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.
16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

rev kevin;7563302]I see the church as the believers of Christ. Not Catholic, Baptist and so on. We are all a part of his church, believers. You can alll it whatever you like but the Church is the believers. You see his church as the CC I see it as the believers

.

 

[placido]

I see the church as the believers of Christ. Not Catholic, Baptist and so on. We are all a part of his church, believers. You can alll it whatever you like but the Church is the believers. You see his church as the CC I see it as the believers.

You see the church as the [group of] believers of Christ. Fine! What you need to see also is that the group of believers was called Catholic Church as early as 107 AD. Baptists and others are those who separated from the original group.
And you can not say Catholic and Baptist are one group because, according to Scriptures, members of the group must be of one mind – and Catholics and Baptists are not of one mind.

placido