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Erich
Guest
Did Christ found a visible Church or an invisible Church?
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rinnie
Guest
Both. Jesus told the apostles during his public life that he wold take on a new body. It would not be physical like the one he took for Mary. The body is now glorified at the right hand of the Father.
Nor would it be a moral body like a social club which derives its unity from the will of men. Rather it would be his new social body that would bound to him by his heavenly Spirit which he would send on leaving this earth.
He spoke of he new body sometimes as a kingdom, St Paul would speak of it as a body which the gentiles could understand more readily.
He told the Apostles his new body men would have to be born into it. but not a human body it would be reborn through the Spirit in the waters of baptism which make us adopted sons of God.
John l 5:5
His new body would be like all living things small at first eas as he said like a mustard seed it would grow. Mark 4:28
He said his new body would not manifest itself before men until the day of pentecost when he would send his truth-giving Spirit. John 1 6:7
Jesus also said that his body would be hated by the world as he was. Anything worldly loves the world, but what is Divine the world hates. John 15:20 Because I have chosen you out of the owrld, for that reason the world hates you.
Until our Lord sent his Spirit on them fifty days after his resurrection the Apostles were like elements in a chemical labatory. Science can show 100% if the chemicals which enter into a human body, but cannot make a human being because of its inability to provide
the unifying principle the Soul.
The same with the Apostles they could not give the Church Divine life anymore then chemicals could make human life. They needed Gods invivible Divine Spirit to unify their visible human natures.
Just as the Son of God took on a human nature from the womb of Mary overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, on Pentecost he took on a Mystical Body from the womb of humanity overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.
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Nicea325
Guest
I am sorry Rev Kev,but now you are changing the topic. I asked you about Peter and its connection to salvation and your reply basically was the following:
Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?
And yet now you are adding to the mix who else Jesus started it with? Two different topics Rev Kev. Please stick to the issue: Did Jesus start the Catholic Church.
However, I can easily answer your question. Peter and none of the other 11 started no churches apart from the ONE Jesus founded. All they did was lead and continue the Church Christ founded.
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Nicea325
Guest
Please! It is obvious which church Rev Kev. I can tell you this much,it is not ONE man-made church founded centuries later.
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Nicea325
Guest
Well if Rev Kev truly believes Jesus did not found the Catholic Church,then I am sure he has scores of ancient primary sources tellings us exactly which church Jesus founded. Funny how so many Protestants as Rev Kev say the same,yet I patiently wait year after year for them to provide their historical evidence confirming Jesus founded a different church? Go figure?*Good point - the question is “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” Jesus instructed Peter to “feed my lambs, feed my sheep” and so Peter carried out Jesus’ instructions and others have followed after him. But it was JESUS who founded/built the Church.
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po18guy
Well-known member
This is one of the longest and most circuitous routes I have ever seen to explain a short, declarative sentence. I thought that scripture interprets itself.
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Erich
Guest
Not only is it obvious which church, but it’s obvious that it’s a visible (and not an invisible) church.
From Is the Church Visible or Invisible?
…we read [in] this WELS declaration of principle:
“We believe that the holy Christian Church is a reality, although it is not an external, visible organization. Because ‘man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart’ only the Lord knows ‘them that are his.’ The members of the holy Christian Church are known only to God; we cannot distinguish between true believers and hypocrites. The holy Christian Church is therefore invisible and cannot be identified with anyone church body or the sum total of all church bodies.”
This view is at one with the position, as traditional Protestantism (what we might call the “conservative” wing) sees it, that the Church which Christ founded is without evident form or, therefore, historical authority (because you can’t turn to the Church as an authoritative decider of disputes if you can’t locate the Church in the first place). Loraine Boettner, a Protestant polemicist and noted anti-Catholic, in his book Roman Catholicism, quotes Stephen L. Testa, a minister who is described as “a former Roman Catholic,” as stating, “The true Church of Christ is invisible, made up of truly converted people who are to be found in all the visible churches and who names are written in heaven.” Testa and Boettner and the people subscribing to the WELS declaration say the Church is non-denominational in that it does not coincide with any of the historic churches, which are only gatherings of convenience for true Christians and potential Christians.
This theory leads one to inquire how, here on earth, where Christ’s commands to his faithful must be implemented, are we to know such a will-o-the-wisp entity? Should we even attempt to know it?
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To acknowledge that Christ did establish a visible Church necessarily would demand that that Church be identified, singled out from other claimants, and its authority accepted. Few Protestants relish such a task. They don’t want to examine the tree and its branches. Their argument for an invisible Church becomes an argument made conclusion-end first.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well the fact Protestants don’t accept the gospel of Matthew and the conversation of Jesus and Peter, really has no bearing on the result of the consequence which followed right after.
The fact still remains that Peter and the Apostles did start the church and they also taught those who followed such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons etc. And thus the process then continued for century after century. As Christ correctly stated in Matthew, the gates of hell would never prevail against His church. And in fact it hasn’t.
So then if Rome and its rulers such as Nero hasn’t changed Christs truth, and its stood despite all evil even through last century and to date. Its pretty safe to say its not going anywhere.
Peter and Paul bought the gospel to Rome and Greece; with the passing of centuries, the seeds of the Apostles yielded abundant fruit. The links from generation to generation exist and are documented. The Gospel entered europe by a few routes, the Italian peninsula, then the area which is now France and Germany, the Iberian peninsula, the British Isles, and Scandinavia and also Ireland. In the East the Byzantine Church spead outward from Constantinople, and the Slav Blocks and Poland, basically by the mission of Cyril and Methodius both brothers. And of course a constant contact with Rome was kept, there was no division in this period. This in fact is how Saint Benedict. Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius became the Patron Saints of Europe. Acts 17: 22-31 speaks of Paul and the evangelization of europe. Of course this continued on through the first millennium and into the second despite the emergence of divisions in the second.
One may chose to believe what they want. But the church history and its foundation in Rome and Greece and its spread throughout europe is a fact.
The fact still remains that Peter and the Apostles did start the church and they also taught those who followed such as Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyons etc. And thus the process then continued for century after century. As Christ correctly stated in Matthew, the gates of hell would never prevail against His church. And in fact it hasn’t.
So then if Rome and its rulers such as Nero hasn’t changed Christs truth, and its stood despite all evil even through last century and to date. Its pretty safe to say its not going anywhere.
Peter and Paul bought the gospel to Rome and Greece; with the passing of centuries, the seeds of the Apostles yielded abundant fruit. The links from generation to generation exist and are documented. The Gospel entered europe by a few routes, the Italian peninsula, then the area which is now France and Germany, the Iberian peninsula, the British Isles, and Scandinavia and also Ireland. In the East the Byzantine Church spead outward from Constantinople, and the Slav Blocks and Poland, basically by the mission of Cyril and Methodius both brothers. And of course a constant contact with Rome was kept, there was no division in this period. This in fact is how Saint Benedict. Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius became the Patron Saints of Europe. Acts 17: 22-31 speaks of Paul and the evangelization of europe. Of course this continued on through the first millennium and into the second despite the emergence of divisions in the second.
One may chose to believe what they want. But the church history and its foundation in Rome and Greece and its spread throughout europe is a fact.
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
The Four Marks of Christ’s True Church: One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic
One:
Christ prayed that we be one as Him and His Father are one. The Catholic Church is easily seen as one. It may look like there are different ones: Syrian Order, Eastern Rite, Latin Rite, Irish, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, etc… But they are all in communion with the each other through all doctrine and most importantly, the Eucharist, Christ’s Body and Blood. We even believe that Heaven and Purgatory are considered in “One” including us earthlings. One Church that is composed of the Church Militant (this world), Church Suffering (Purgatory) and Church Triumphant (Heaven).
I suppose one could consider each denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc…) as one, or one can consider each church building one. So, one can see how each can be one. Ours through Christ’s Body and others through different doctrines and such.
Holy:
When considering this, we have to see what we mean by calling a Church Holy. We call the Church Holy because it is the Church (through Christ, before non-Catholics attack me) that makes us holy through its Sacraments and especially the Blessed the Sacrament. Not to mention the rich treasury of prayers. Most denominations call the church holy because it is the people that “make the church holy”. I heard this from others so do not attack me if you do not like it. But it does make sense, to me anyway.
Catholic:
Catholic just means universal, in that it is encompassing the whole. It is for everybody and contains all nationalities, ethnicities, race, etc… Not one is excluded and the Church cannot turn anyone down who truly desires it (the exception perhaps being excommunicated people, but I am ignorant in that area). I have been to churches where they kicked me out because you did not pay tithe or whatever, so clearly this is not in all Protestant denominations.
Apostolic:
Our Church is the one of the few denominations (although I hate to denigrate it to a mere denomination) that even claims to have been the Church started by Christ Himself. St. Ignatius (around 150 A.D.) said, “Wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” That is pretty explicit to me. Priests nowadays can do some research to see which Apostle they come from. No non-Catholic Christian preacher, priest or pastor (or whatever) can do that without eventually touching the Catholic history. I see zero of the other claiming denominations (Anabaptists, Orthodox, etc…) that have their name explicitly said before the 1100’s, much less before the 100’s. I am not saying that they are not there. I am just saying that I have not seen it and I certainly doubt that it is even there.
There may be some denominations who can claim some of these, but the only Church that can truly call itself One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic is Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church.
One:
Christ prayed that we be one as Him and His Father are one. The Catholic Church is easily seen as one. It may look like there are different ones: Syrian Order, Eastern Rite, Latin Rite, Irish, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, etc… But they are all in communion with the each other through all doctrine and most importantly, the Eucharist, Christ’s Body and Blood. We even believe that Heaven and Purgatory are considered in “One” including us earthlings. One Church that is composed of the Church Militant (this world), Church Suffering (Purgatory) and Church Triumphant (Heaven).
I suppose one could consider each denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc…) as one, or one can consider each church building one. So, one can see how each can be one. Ours through Christ’s Body and others through different doctrines and such.
Holy:
When considering this, we have to see what we mean by calling a Church Holy. We call the Church Holy because it is the Church (through Christ, before non-Catholics attack me) that makes us holy through its Sacraments and especially the Blessed the Sacrament. Not to mention the rich treasury of prayers. Most denominations call the church holy because it is the people that “make the church holy”. I heard this from others so do not attack me if you do not like it. But it does make sense, to me anyway.
Catholic:
Catholic just means universal, in that it is encompassing the whole. It is for everybody and contains all nationalities, ethnicities, race, etc… Not one is excluded and the Church cannot turn anyone down who truly desires it (the exception perhaps being excommunicated people, but I am ignorant in that area). I have been to churches where they kicked me out because you did not pay tithe or whatever, so clearly this is not in all Protestant denominations.
Apostolic:
Our Church is the one of the few denominations (although I hate to denigrate it to a mere denomination) that even claims to have been the Church started by Christ Himself. St. Ignatius (around 150 A.D.) said, “Wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” That is pretty explicit to me. Priests nowadays can do some research to see which Apostle they come from. No non-Catholic Christian preacher, priest or pastor (or whatever) can do that without eventually touching the Catholic history. I see zero of the other claiming denominations (Anabaptists, Orthodox, etc…) that have their name explicitly said before the 1100’s, much less before the 100’s. I am not saying that they are not there. I am just saying that I have not seen it and I certainly doubt that it is even there.
There may be some denominations who can claim some of these, but the only Church that can truly call itself One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic is Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church.
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Mikeoffaith
Guest
I never defined that the church I belong to isn’t a successor to that original church.
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Mikeoffaith
Guest
i never believed otherwise.Hey at least you admit it exists of the Body of that Church, so thats a good thing
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Mikeoffaith
Guest
Really and what did you do with the Orthodox? You cleaved them off way before Luther.*Jesus said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH! Not Churches! Don’t forget that it was through the actions of Luther that Protestantism began and then the splitting started - all the denominations.
The Church MUST be One.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Why did Saint Paul preach and write about hot having “factions”? Why did Jesus pray to the Father that we be of one accord?
The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.
po18guy
Well-known member
Wait right there! Do you have any idea what you just said? Even a dolt like me knows that the Orthodox left over matters of territory and local authority, among other things. They left 600 years after Nicaea, while rejecting a portion of the Nicene creed regarding the Holy Spirit.
It’s not that simple. It never is.
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Irish_Polock
Guest
Indeed, although, I would say that the Orthodox have severed their own cord; also they have not fared much better then the Protestants in their separation from The Holy See.
po18guy
Well-known member
Seventeen (17) years after the Apostle John died, Ignatius of Antioch, in writing, referred to the one Church as “catholic”, or “universal”. So, where is your “biblical authority” to separate the Church, Jesus’ Body, into disagreeing groups?
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benedictus2
Guest
Rinnie, where you make your error is in saying that Catholic Church IS Christ, which means the totality of Christ, which means the Second Person of the Trinity, which means eternal.
That is pure heresy! The only reason I can think of is that you have been reading some New Age guru who likes to coat their heretical doctrine with a thin film of Christian doctrine.
If the Catholic Chuch as you said is God, then she does not need the Holy Spirit to led her into Truth because she is already truth. Please read that slowly and absorb it.
I would seriously take an inventory of whatever it is your reading or listening to, get an orthodox priest and pass it by him. Satan is very clever. He will not tell you to spread outright lies. He will simply twist the truth to suit his purpose.
I can sort of imagine where you might getting this rubbish. I attended a lenten seminar last year and this member of the Christian Brothers kept telling everyone he is somebody because he is Jesus. Rubbish. Total Rubbish.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Well don’t we have a problem if that’s so rev kevin? I mean, how many times did Paul write letters telling everyone to be of the same mind and judgment?
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benedictus2
Guest
Mike, in your reply, you mentioned only two - the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. So therefore any church outside of that is out of contention.
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Nicea325
Guest
Wrong! Jesus did found a single church. The church Jesus founded is ONE,HOLY,CATHOLIC, and Apostolic,not ten of thousands different denominations with conflicting beliefs. Even the RCC teaches the church is the people,but universal in beliefs and doctrine.
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