Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[benedictus2]

Jesus Christ and the Church are ONE.

Yes, much in the same way a married couple are one. But the husband IS NOT the wife, and the wife IS NOT the husband. That is why the Church is referred to as the Bride of Christ. If the Church is IS Christ Himself, that means He is His Own Bride. Ridiculous.

I never said that the Jesus needed the Holy Spirit! I said that Jesus said he was sending the HOLY SPIRIT.

And you also said the Church is the Person of Jesus Christ. If this is so what does the Church need the Holy Spirit for considering it is already God?

If the Church is God, then why do we pray to God. Should we not be just talking to ourselves?

You (or who ever it is you are deriving this heretical teaching from) has twisted the doctrine around and came up with this terrible lie. I would much prefer that anyone be taught by the Protestants than by this New Age take on Catholicism that you are peddling. This is much worse than the corrupted protestant teaching.

 

[benedictus2]

Acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME, Who are you Sir? The reply came, JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING!!

You are misrepresenting this. Jesus is One with His church but not quite in the way you mean that somehow the Church IS THE VERY PERSON OF THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY WHICH MAKE THE CHURCH GOD.

I hope you will turn that over in your mind before you continue with this line of thinking.

I have written this over and over again so please read this and think.

If the Church is JESUS IN PERSON, then what does she need the Holy Spirit for considering that she is already God?

And if the Church IS GOD, then we have one heck of a god when you consider the evil that her members have done and will do.

Please think about that Rinnie. Please think about that.

This is my last post on this matter as this is really outside the scope of this thread.

 

[po18guy]

Rinnie, where you make your error is in saying that Catholic Church IS Christ, which means the totality of Christ, which means the Second Person of the Trinity, which means eternal.

That is pure heresy! The only reason I can think of is that you have been reading some New Age guru who likes to coat their heretical doctrine with a thin film of Christian doctrine.

If the Catholic Chuch as you said is God, then she does not need the Holy Spirit to led her into Truth because she is already truth. Please read that slowly and absorb it.

I would seriously take an inventory of whatever it is your reading or listening to, get an orthodox priest and pass it by him. Satan is very clever. He will not tell you to spread outright lies. He will simply twist the truth to suit his purpose.

I can sort of imagine where you might getting this rubbish. I attended a lenten seminar last year and this member of the Christian Brothers kept telling everyone he is somebody because he is Jesus. Rubbish. Total Rubbish.

I think you might be reading just a little too much into rinnie’s writing here. I did not see the word or term “totality” used at all. The Church is His visible Body, and is lead by the Holy Spirit, and is prevented from teaching error by that same Spirit. That’s all rinnie is trying to say, I do believe. Please correct me, affected parties, if I err here.

 

[Cinette]

I think you might be reading just a little too much into rinnie’s writing here. I did not see the word or term “totality” used at all. The Church is His visible Body, and is lead by the Holy Spirit, and is prevented from teaching error by that same Spirit. That’s all rinnie is trying to say, I do believe. Please correct me, affected parties, if I err here.

How do you understand this statement:

Jesus Christ is indeed the Living Catholic Church here on earth, being led by his Holy Spirit!!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Roy5,

Glad you asked … yes, you are wrong… Now, let me tell you why…

It is true that the both Matthew (8:20) and Luke (9:58) recorded Christ as saying He had not where lay His head. But, the comparrison you made would be similar to comparing the Babe in the Manger that First Christmas Day with the Man of Sorrows dying on the Cross for our sins. A lot happend betweent the wood of the Manger and the wood of the Cross. By the same token, a lot happened between Matthew 16:18 and the physical structure of the Catholic Church today. To jump from one event to another and not identify all of the intermediate steps is guaranteed to lead to doubts and confusion! I think we can avoid this without too much trouble.

I confess to doubts and confusion when it comes to Christ beginning the Catholic Church as it is today. Here he was, with hardly a place to lay his head, and here is the church with its huge cathedrals, its ornate vestments, its long processions, and such.

If Christ did start the church what does he think of it today? I sometimes have even wondered if the sex scandal and other problems could be a punishment? Or, maybe an alarm? I also have honestly wondered if the early Hebrew-Christian tradition was invaded by the Greco-Roman religion and the mystery cults. Don't know. Just wondering.

Wondering is a sign of wisdom… Now, let’s see if we can wonder together on this topic. As we reverently read the OT, we find multiple examples of God’s Special Favor (Grace) being given to His Chosen People. If the Chosen People responded positively once for every time they strayed and went to foreign gods, that would have been a real improvement! Over and over the Chosen People sinned - and God chastized them as He loved them. They are STILL the Chosen People. St. Paul tells us (Rom 11:29) that God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable.

The Catholic Church is still the Church founded by Christ on Peter. Peter is the one and only Pope, as you will recall, who denied Christ to His Face. There have been some Popes who have fallen VERY short of the mark and given public scandal - but, NONE OF THEM ever denied Christ to His Face. So, in the midst of all of this chaos - it is Christ Who forgives. Now, Peter paid was chastized for his failure(s) but, God did not abandon His Church or its Bishops.

The sex abuse scandal is a terrible six experience - with the real monsterous evil of sin showing its contempt for the true innocence of the victims involved. This has been a major sin before the entire world. But, this isn’t the Church or an example of what it teaches. What it is, is a display of what happens when men fail to live up to their calling in Christ and cooperate with His Grace.

When I see the Pope and all the finery and ceremony and adulation connected with him I wonder: what would Jesus think? He would have loved the work of Mother Theresa and of the many others who seek to serve the have-nots in the world. But as for the other????

Too often Christians claim to embrace love, humility and peace while they project an image of bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

Am I wrong?

As you will recall, in addition to not having a place to lay His Head, Christ also did not display any wealth - He had to ask to see a coin (Matt 22:19). Yet, He allowed a woman to anoint Him with a very expensive perfume (Mark 14:3) - and rebuked His own “Treasurer” (Judas) by saying the poor you will always have with you.

While it is not difficult to find scandal when one is looking for it, I would recommend you look beyond the ceremony and finery and look at the actual truths (many of which you yourself believe! ) that were brought to us by the Catholic Church. Here are just four:
**
1.) We do not have to be circumcised or follow the Law of Moses - COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM

2.) Christ is God - FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA

3.) Christ is born of the Father before all time - FIRST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE

4.) Christ is True God and True Man - COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON**
These have been the teaching of the Catholic Church since they were first developed - and have never changed. Consider those man-made doctries and traditions that claim to follow Christ yet repudiate His teachings, His Church and His Sacraments.

Maybe God will bless us with another - public type Mother Theresa. I think the nuns who worked with her are still carrying out her work - yet are not receiving any publicity. Mother was not seeking publicity - I am quite sure that she was not happy with it. But, God used this publicity to bring His Message to us.

Hopefully, this post will be helpful, Roy5

God bless

 

[NinjaSnark]

Wow! Just caught up on this thread, and I think I need to go back and re-read some stuff again, but I think the question this thread poses is really the crux of the matter regarding Catholicism.

IMO, as a Protestant investigating the RCC, it’s more efficacious to address the question “Did Jesus start the Catholic Church?” first before even attempting to address common doctrinal issues Protestants have with Catholicism such as Marian doctrines, Purgatory, whathaveyou… because if Jesus did start the Catholic Church- with Holy Spirit guidance as a guarantee of infallibility- then the rest of those issues suddenly become… well, moot, I guess.

One thing I specifically wanted to comment on regarding whether Peter was in Rome, and Rev Kevin’s question of where that was in the Bible, is that that is- I think- a totally irrelevant question and here’s why:

1. 
   *]The intended audience of the Bible (as in the people the epistles were directly addressed to in Corinth or Rome, etc.) would have been “high context” while we are “low context”. If someone 100 years from now were to discover a letter I had written to my grandmother, they certainly should NOT expect to find minute details of my daily life, because my grandmother’s familiarity with me would cause her to already know these things- like where I live, for sure.
   *]The Bible is definitely a historical text, but it is not the ONLY historical text. There are other sources we can turn to (and need to) to learn about things the Bible doesn’t mention like the Jerusalem War or the destrucion of the Temple in 70 AD
   
   So, the premise that the Bible MUST say that Peter was in Rome for the Catholic Church to be valid is a non sequitur and illogical. It’s also a slippery slope. By that logic (where the Bible is the only source of history) how far are you willing to take it? The Bible doesn’t mention anything that was going on with the Celts… did they exist?
   
   I also have to agree with a previous poster that said (for argument’s sake) that even if Peter never set foot in Rome (which is a view I do not ascribe to) what does that have to do with anything the Catholic Church claims? Does the fact that Lutheran Synods aren’t headquartered in Germany have anything to do with the validity of its claims- even though it originated in Germany?

 

[rev_kevin]

I’m sorry if you found my question offensive. I assure you it was not meant to be so. I asked if you gave any validity to what the early Church fathers wrote and you vaguely answered, ‘depends’; In this same thread you posted a copy and paste using Flavius Jospehus’ writings as proof to try and prove your point. It certainly appears if it’s not what you already believe then it ‘depends’.

It was not my intention to ‘get rev kevin’, as you put it. I wanted explanations of what appeared to be a bias on your part. Now, instead of answering those points raised, you’ve changed the subject again???

Peace to you brother.

NO I did not take you post offensive at all. I was trying to point out that you wanted to continue the discussion and then the remark by bennedictus 2 came after your post. It was that post that I was offended by not yours.

NOw as far as “depends” I mean it depends on what it is ie Mary being a every virgin I don’t believe she was. Now believe it or not is has been clearly brought to my stuborn attention that Peter was in Rome. Well seeing all the evidence I must say YES HE WAS!

 

[rev_kevin]

I am sorry Rev Kev,but now you are changing the topic. I asked you about Peter and its connection to salvation and your reply basically was the following:

Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

And yet now you are adding to the mix who else Jesus started it with? Two different topics Rev Kev. Please stick to the issue: Did Jesus start the Catholic Church.

However, I can easily answer your question. Peter and none of the other 11 started no churches apart from the ONE Jesus founded. All they did was lead and continue the Church Christ founded.

Because this discussion is not about Salvation.

NO HE DID NOT.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Po18guy,

There is an error - and, it is not with Benedictus2 reading too much into Rinnie’s statements. Really, Po18guy, Rinnie original statement(s) and efforts at clarification are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off of the mark of the official teachings of the Catholic Church.

Christ really ISN’T the Catholic Church. Rinnie’s statements were quite clear - but, really quite wrong. Here is an excerpt from the CCC that may be helpful at this time, While item 796 addresses the item, I attached these other items to provide a Rinnie with what he may be wanting to talk about.

****787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

“One Body”

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithfu.

“Christ is the Head of this Body”

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, “until Christ be formed” in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the “whole Christ” (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does “head and members” mean? Christ and the Church.230
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter."233

The Church is the Bride of Christ

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239 ****

I think you might be reading just a little too much into rinnie’s writing here. I did not see the word or term “totality” used at all. The Church is His visible Body, and is lead by the Holy Spirit, and is prevented from teaching error by that same Spirit. That’s all rinnie is trying to say, I do believe. Please correct me, affected parties, if I err here.

 

[rev_kevin]

Please! It is obvious which church Rev Kev. I can tell you this much,it is not ONE man-made church founded centuries later.

What Is A Church?
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, associated together, under Christ, for His purposes.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says the English word “church” is derived from the Greek word kyriakon, which means something belonging to the Lord.

“`Church’ in the New Testament, however, renders Greek ekklesia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. An ekklesia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned . . . ,” according to the New Bible Dictionary.

“Ekklesia was originally employed by the Greeks to denote an assembly or congregation of free citizens summoned or `called out’ by a herald in connection with public affairs (Acts 19:39).”

“In no case is the word used with reference to a building in which public worship is conducted. The word “church” is applicable essentially to people . . .”

The Church is a group of Christian congregations, believers in Jesus Christ. Its the people not a named church like Baptist, Catholic, Methodist…Its the people.

 

[Cinette]

*This is what I love about the Catholic Church - there is the Catechism with all the explanations we need and more!

My ex-atheist husband who has now been Catholic for 7 years is constantly surprised and excited by what he learns.

*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

We have all of this history and teaching from the Early Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) Fathers about the Virginity of Mary. Here is a link to 11 ECF clearly identifying that Mary remained a perpetual virgin (and there is an interesting commentary at the bottom) freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1778354/posts

Not only were these men closer to Christ and His Mother chronological, they also understood the language and customs. They were not being derailed by a word like ‘brother’ or ‘sister’ when these people were not the off-spring of Mary.

The fact is, God chose to take on Human Flesh - and Jesus Christ, True God and True Man had an earthy, created Mother. Mary kept her vow of Virginity. There are no gynelogical reports to convince you, like there were documents to convice you of Peter being in Rome. I do not know about yours - but my God is ALL POWERFUL and Mary was conceived without Original Sin - not from any merit of hers, but strictly as a Grace of God. Mary also bore and gave birth to the Son of God - and yet, remained a virgin. How? I have not a clue! But, do I believe it? Yes, most ardently.

Ultimately, if you look at the matter, you just have to ask yourself, “Was Mary that specia?” The straight-forward answer is, “Yes! She was and is!” because, that is the Way God has chosen to save us fromt he fires of Hell.

God bless

NO I did not take you post offensive at all. I was trying to point out that you wanted to continue the discussion and then the remark by bennedictus 2 came after your post. It was that post that I was offended by not yours.

NOw as far as “depends” I mean it depends on what it is ie Mary being a every virgin I don’t believe she was. Now believe it or not is has been clearly brought to my stuborn attention that Peter was in Rome. Well seeing all the evidence I must say YES HE WAS!

 

[Cinette]

What Is A Church?
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, associated together, under Christ, for His purposes.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says the English word “church” is derived from the Greek word kyriakon, which means something belonging to the Lord.

“`Church’ in the New Testament, however, renders Greek ekklesia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. An ekklesia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned . . . ,” according to the New Bible Dictionary.

“Ekklesia was originally employed by the Greeks to denote an assembly or congregation of free citizens summoned or `called out’ by a herald in connection with public affairs (Acts 19:39).”

“In no case is the word used with reference to a building in which public worship is conducted. The word “church” is applicable essentially to people . . .”

*A family is made up of members: a Mother, a Father and children (although some are trying very hard to change that!) However they remain a family and they are home even if they don’t have a house to put it in!

Who said that Church is a building? Church is the people who congregate in a building for worship!

rev kevin - you like playing Devil’s Advocate and you love being contrary. I have a brother-in-law like you - one can never get him to agree about anything - its always “yes but, yes but.” and, you know what? It is extremely tiresome!

*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Do you realize that, notwithstanding all of your verbage, you totally ignore the statement from Nicea on you being a church of one. I would recommend you read the post directly above yours dealting the CCC …

What Is A Church?
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, associated together, under Christ, for His purposes.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says the English word “church” is derived from the Greek word kyriakon, which means something belonging to the Lord.

“`Church’ in the New Testament, however, renders Greek ekklesia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. An ekklesia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned . . . ,” according to the New Bible Dictionary.

“Ekklesia was originally employed by the Greeks to denote an assembly or congregation of free citizens summoned or `called out’ by a herald in connection with public affairs (Acts 19:39).”

“In no case is the word used with reference to a building in which public worship is conducted. The word “church” is applicable essentially to people . . .”

The Church is a group of Christian congregations, believers in Jesus Christ. Its the people not a named church like Baptist, Catholic, Methodist…Its the people.

 

[JVSantos]

What Is A Church?
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, associated together, under Christ, for His purposes.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says the English word “church” is derived from the Greek word kyriakon, which means something belonging to the Lord.

“`Church’ in the New Testament, however, renders Greek ekklesia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. An ekklesia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned . . . ,” according to the New Bible Dictionary.

“Ekklesia was originally employed by the Greeks to denote an assembly or congregation of free citizens summoned or `called out’ by a herald in connection with public affairs (Acts 19:39).”

“In no case is the word used with reference to a building in which public worship is conducted. The word “church” is applicable essentially to people . . .”

The Church is a group of Christian congregations, believers in Jesus Christ. Its the people not a named church like Baptist, Catholic, Methodist…Its the people.

CCC
751
The word “Church” (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-kalein, to “call out of”) means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself “Church,” the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is “calling together” his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriak, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means “what belongs to the Lord.”

752
In Christian usage, the word “church” designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. “The Church” is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ’s Body.

 

[rev_kevin]

*A family is made up of members: a Mother, a Father and children (although some are trying very hard to change that!) However they remain a family and they are home even if they don’t have a house to put it in!

Who said that Church is a building? Church is the people who congregate in a building for worship!

rev kevin - you like playing Devil’s Advocate and you love being contrary. I have a brother-in-law like you - one can never get him to agree about anything - its always “yes but, yes but.” and, you know what? It is extremely tiresome!

*

Then don’t answer any of my posts. Tiresome problem solves.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Do you realize that, notwithstanding all of your verbage, you totally ignore the statement from Nicea on you being a church of one. I would recommend you read the post directly above yours dealting the CCC …

See you want me to read what the ECF wrote and then say “Oh I agree with it.” But on the other hand when I write or quote something else I don’t see you saying “Oh I agree with it.” We are of different beliefs here. You believe what the CC teaches and I don’t. It seems that if I read what the ECF write I will automatically believe it because it was written by them. I have read the post directly above mine and???

 

[rev_kevin]

*A family is made up of members: a Mother, a Father and children (although some are trying very hard to change that!) However they remain a family and they are home even if they don’t have a house to put it in!

Who said that Church is a building? Church is the people who congregate in a building for worship!

rev kevin - you like playing Devil’s Advocate and you love being contrary. I have a brother-in-law like you - one can never get him to agree about anything - its always “yes but, yes but.” and, you know what? It is extremely tiresome!

*

In 2 places it states that a church is not a building and you must harp on them 2 small places but neglect the rest of the post where it says what a church is.

You say I like playing the Devil’s Advocate for some reason. You only say that because I don’t see things the way you want me to see them. You on the other hand are a very critical person. If I say “yes but” instead of just saying “Yes” (like you want me to) its my business. I have a right to question or make my statements any way I please. (as long as it is within the rules here) If its tiresome to you, I already told you what you can do to solve the tiresome problem.

 

[JVSantos]

Beware of curious and useless searching into this, you do not wish to sink into the depths of doubts.
You may seek after the truth, provided you do so in a humble and docile way.
Many have lost their devotion while searching into mysteries too deep for them to understand.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

We have all of this history and teaching from the Early Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) Fathers about the Virginity of Mary. Here is a link to 11 ECF clearly identifying that Mary remained a perpetual virgin (and there is an interesting commentary at the bottom) freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1778354/posts

Not only were these men closer to Christ and His Mother chronological, they also understood the language and customs. They were not being derailed by a word like ‘brother’ or ‘sister’ when these people were not the off-spring of Mary.

The fact is, God chose to take on Human Flesh - and Jesus Christ, True God and True Man had an earthy, created Mother. Mary kept her vow of Virginity. There are no gynelogical reports to convince you, like there were documents to convice you of Peter being in Rome. I do not know about yours - but my God is ALL POWERFUL and Mary was conceived without Original Sin - not from any merit of hers, but strictly as a Grace of God. Mary also bore and gave birth to the Son of God - and yet, remained a virgin. How? I have not a clue! But, do I believe it? Yes, most ardently.

Ultimately, if you look at the matter, you just have to ask yourself, “Was Mary that specia?” The straight-forward answer is, “Yes! She was and is!” because, that is the Way God has chosen to save us fromt he fires of Hell.

God bless

I used Mary as a example of what I don’t believe about the writtings of the ECF. I did not want nor did I ask for a explination on Mary. It was used as a example.