Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[RedDawgMCM]

I covered some of this stuff in a blog post I wrote today. It’s not a total argument but it is a good basis for the defense of papal authority/beginnings of the CC.

Check it out.

michaelcmorris.blogspot.com

 

[benedictus2]

Wow! Just caught up on this thread, and I think I need to go back and re-read some stuff again, but I think the question this thread poses is really the crux of the matter regarding Catholicism.

IMO, as a Protestant investigating the RCC, it’s more efficacious to address the question “Did Jesus start the Catholic Church?” first before even attempting to address common doctrinal issues Protestants have with Catholicism such as Marian doctrines, Purgatory, whathaveyou… because if Jesus did start the Catholic Church- with Holy Spirit guidance as a guarantee of infallibility- then the rest of those issues suddenly become… well, moot, I guess.

One thing I specifically wanted to comment on regarding whether Peter was in Rome, and Rev Kevin’s question of where that was in the Bible, is that that is- I think- a totally irrelevant question and here’s why:

1. 
   *]The intended audience of the Bible (as in the people the epistles were directly addressed to in Corinth or Rome, etc.) would have been “high context” while we are “low context”. If someone 100 years from now were to discover a letter I had written to my grandmother, they certainly should NOT expect to find minute details of my daily life, because my grandmother’s familiarity with me would cause her to already know these things- like where I live, for sure.
   *]The Bible is definitely a historical text, but it is not the ONLY historical text. There are other sources we can turn to (and need to) to learn about things the Bible doesn’t mention like the Jerusalem War or the destrucion of the Temple in 70 AD
   
   So, the premise that the Bible MUST say that Peter was in Rome for the Catholic Church to be valid is a non sequitur and illogical. It’s also a slippery slope. By that logic (where the Bible is the only source of history) how far are you willing to take it? The Bible doesn’t mention anything that was going on with the Celts… did they exist?
   
   I also have to agree with a previous poster that said (for argument’s sake) that even if Peter never set foot in Rome (which is a view I do not ascribe to) what does that have to do with anything the Catholic Church claims? Does the fact that Lutheran Synods aren’t headquartered in Germany have anything to do with the validity of its claims- even though it originated in Germany?

1. 
   Wow, that is quite brilliant. Top Marks for clarity Ninja.
   .

 

[benedictus2]

Because this discussion is not about Salvation.

NO HE DID NOT.

I wasn’t quite sure what you were saying “No He did not” to but I think that it is your reply to the the thread title.

But it is not enough to just say No he did not without giving an answer.

In your previous posts you raised the issue of Peter in Rome. I think we settled that issue and moved.

Then you defined the Church and I agreed with your definition and we’ve moved on from there.

Now we just need to determine which church of the many Christian Churches around was the Church He established because that Church has to be around to this day.

I gave a list of the when the other Churches started so that rules them out because they were all founded over a thousand years after the death of the apostles.

That really leaves only two contenders in the ring. The Orthodox and the Catholic Church.

So now to find the truth we must go back to history because the Bible is not sufficient since it finishes just as the Church was born. This infant church after 1900 years would be a full grown church by now. It is no longer a baby. It would have matured over the centuries.

 

[benedictus2]

What Is A Church?
A church is a group of believers in Jesus Christ, associated together, under Christ, for His purposes.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says the English word “church” is derived from the Greek word kyriakon, which means something belonging to the Lord.

“`Church’ in the New Testament, however, renders Greek ekklesia, which mostly designates a local congregation of Christians and never a building. An ekklesia was a meeting or assembly. Its commonest use was for the public assembly of citizens duly summoned . . . ,” according to the New Bible Dictionary.

“Ekklesia was originally employed by the Greeks to denote an assembly or congregation of free citizens summoned or `called out’ by a herald in connection with public affairs (Acts 19:39).”

“In no case is the word used with reference to a building in which public worship is conducted. The word “church” is applicable essentially to people . . .”

I think we’ve gone past definitions now Rev Kevin.

Going back to that will not advance this discussion.

I reiterated we know what a Church is - a group of people with the same belief and that is exactly the Church that we find in Acts. They have the same belief. So much so that even though this church have different members in different localities they look to a central body to determine their doctrine hence the council of Jerusalem.

So that is settled, the Church in Acts is Catholic, that is universal, even though they may have members in different cities that form the local church.

As I have said before, we can definitely discount the churches that sprang thousand of years later after the death of the apostles. These are obviously not the Church that Jesus founded.

So let’s move from there and investigate what happens after Acts. Otherwise we will be going round and round again.

The Church is a group of Christian congregations, believers in Jesus Christ. Its the people not a named church like Baptist, Catholic, Methodist…Its the people.

Well actually no. The Baptists is a Church, the Methodist is a Church because they all have the same belief within their group. But the Baptist and the Methodist do not have the same belief except for a common belief in Jesus. But there are obviously quite major doctrinal differences or else there would not be Baptists and Methodists and just one group of people called perhaps… BapMed.

What we do see in Acts is an orthodoxy not a heterodoxy. As you can see in the council of Jerusalem, it is not enough that these people believed or not in Christ; Paul and Barnabas had to go all the way to Rome to clarify doctrine regarding circumcision. So the entire new Testament Church now believed that circumcision is not necessary after this council.

In the current Protestant setting if we were to transplant it back to the days of Acts it would be like the Circumcisionists saying that circumcision is necessary and the Non-Circums saying no our doctrine says it is not necessary and both of them claiming to be following Christ and insisting they are Christian.

But that is not what we see in Acts. We see a great Apostle like Paul who could have put his foot down at Antioch - and said no this is how we do it and that’s that - going to Rome to get clarification.

You do not see that kind of agreement between Methodist, Lutherans, Baptists, and Catholics. So clearly, we are not one Church but different Churches.

Which brings us back to Acts. Which of these can trace her origin back to the Apostles, to Pentecost.

Obviously, any Church born 1500 years later cannot qualify to be that Church because that is just 1500 years too late.

 

[benedictus2]

The Nicene Creed was first adopted in A.D. 325 at the Council of Nicea. The Roman Emperor Constantine had convened the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify the Christian church with one doctrine, especially on the issues of the Trinity and the deity / humanity of Jesus Christ. The Nicene Creed reads as follows:
v
v
v
v
v

Nicene Creed aside, the Council of Nicea was not convened to unify the Church. There was only one Church.

But as the Church grew and people started theologizing, then things come up. Much in the same way that in acts people started theologizing and thought that since the Church is the new Israel and the old Israel required circumcision maybe circumcision is still required. So they gathered to sort this out.

Same thing with every council. Heresy’s start cropping up and so this has to be nipped in the bud.

The Church that convened at Nicea was only One Church. You do not have the Methodist and Lutherans and Baptists and Presbyterians convening to trash out a central doctrine. What happens is these individual churches gather to trash out their own doctrines.

So as you can see, the fact that they convened at Nicea means that they all belonged to the same Church.

**So now I think we can put that to bed. Three hundred years later, the Church that started at Pentecost remains the same Church but this time with more structure.
**
Perhaps we can start looking at the Church after Nicea now.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes I can. I am a Christian, a part of the church, a group of believers that is the church.

That you love Christ I do not doubt. But the Church is more than just a group of believers. If that were so, Jesus would not have called the 12, specifically singled Peter and established a Church.

He could have left a book with His sayings, given it to his disciples and said : “Here, follow this and you will be saved.” With that system, He could have ended up with the group of believers that you speak about and that would have all been fine.

But He did not do that. He called people Not every Tom, Dirk and Harry who followed Him around became His apostle. God was very specific of what He wanted and who He wanted and how He was going to go about achieving what He wanted His Church to be.

And the twelve that he singled out to proclaim his gospel had a very specific way of incorporating members into this church - baptism. And one has to be incorporated into this Church.

At the end of Acts 2 we read: Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart, praising God and enjoying favor with all the people. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

So the Lord was adding to their number those who were being saved.

So this means that to be saved is to be added to THIS number. Which number is this but the number of Christians who have been incorporated into this Church.

Jesus started the church and the church is a group of believers that are Christians, even Catholics are Christians. Therefore Christ started Christianity. If not then who did?

Christianity is not a Church but a religion - a broad terms that basically covers everyone who believes in Christ.

But even early on in the Acts we see that to believe in Christ is not all that was required of those who were to become members of this Church. They had to acknowledge the authority and the teaching of the apostles. Which is why even a man as great as St Paul had to go back to Jerusalem.

 

[benedictus2]

See you want me to read what the ECF wrote and then say “Oh I agree with it.” But on the other hand when I write or quote something else I don’t see you saying “Oh I agree with it.” We are of different beliefs here. You believe what the CC teaches and I don’t. It seems that if I read what the ECF write I will automatically believe it because it was written by them. I have read the post directly above mine and???

No we do not expect you to read and just say you agree.

If you read a particular part which does not seem right to you, then explain why you think this is incorrect. You have done that when you defined what a Church is.

After that we can either agree with your explanation or disagree with it and explain why we disagree.

You see in any debate, it is when you disagree that you most need to explain why.

For myself, I believe what the Catholic Church teaches because time and time again, I have found Christs’ wisdom in her. I think this is what converts to Catholicism have said many times over as well. They will have nagging questions for a long time and only by coming home to the Church do these questions get answered.

 

[rinnie]

The word Catholic was not used nor was it a religion during the time before, during and some time after Jesus. It was called the CHURCH which is a body of believers in Chirst, no more, no less.

Why? Simple because like Jesus told us the Son has come to glorify the Father, just like the Father will glorify the Son.
( 1 Tim 6:16) But God wants us to know him, that is why he sent his Son. He chose to become Human so we could relate to him through the Son.
There is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit 3 person in One divinity God.
Christians of almost all demoninations believe this. This don’t mean Jesus started the Catholic Church.

Hi Rev Kev, actually it does seem that way, but actually it really is. Now a long time ago my Dad told me this, and I want you to always remember it. He said if you want the true words of God get the oldest bible you can find. He said alot of WORDS get lost in translation, and in turn can be interpreted into different meanings. That is why we need the Church.

Universal means Catholic, Universal also means ONE. Now if you look in the dictionary and look up Catholic you will see Universal. If you look in this scripture you will see universal which means One.

1 Cor 12:28 15:9
Matt. 16:18
Eph 1:22-23
Col. 1:18

Just like we agree that the Church is made up of ONE body. Many thing’s in the bible are difficult to understand. Even when they are explained to you, it takes years to really think, and let them sink in.

But that is how the Apostles said the Church is One, because it is one in Christ, Holy because Christ is Holy, Catholic because just like 1 Cor tells us, it is one body made up of many parts,

Like how our body has many parts, its still one body, One Spirit is baptised into one body rather Jews, greeks. slaves. or free we are given to drink from ONE Spirit.

And the Church is Apostolic, Taught by the teaching’s of Christ from the Apostles.

Hope that helps. Like I said study the scripture, give it alot of deep thought, pray on it, and I promise understanding will come with the grace from God.

 

[rinnie]

Also Rev Kev. I believe you are a wonderful Christian, and it is by that Catholic (Universal) Church started by our Dear Lord that unites us all together in Christ.

While we may not be in the same mind set or body we are all universal in the Spirit of God.

It is that Holy Spirit that unites us, even though we may seem apart.

You believe in God, You accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. You believe in the Trinity. We are Catholic or Universal or One whatever word you want to use in our belief.

Now we have to become Universal in our understanding’s. That’s gonna be hard for all of us! But we have to remember (and as I said, I am at the top of the list,) to be Christian.

Hey Rev, Do you know what Christian means??? How that word came about?

It means to be CHRIST-LIKE!! Remember what the kids used to wear WWJD. Its so hard but we have try to make him apart of every single thing we do.

I am reading this book its called the practice of the presence of God. Holy Smokes!! It is awesome.

If you ever get the chance, or anyone here, read it. It will show you why God’s presence in us is so important, and how difficult and what we have to give up to get it there, But what we gain in the process. Personally I am not sure I am going to make it

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by rev kevin
Jesus started the church and the church is a group of believers that are Christians,even Catholics are Christian. Therefore Christ started Christianity. If not then who did?

So I am right Christ built a Christian Church and not the Catholic Church. Now the Christian Church was given the name Catholic to say that Christianity is universal. Well this answers the question of “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” NO Christ build/started a Christian Church. :extrahappy::dancing:

Semantics, and I have to say very easy to see through. I guess this is a win/lose ‘contest’ to you rather than a sharing/understanding experience that includes an honest discussion. I say discussion because it’s not so much a debate with the seemingly ‘bait and switch’ statements you’ve used, not only to disagee with Catholics for the sake of disagreeing but also in what seems to be a fashion to inflame Catholics.

Above is your quote where you state, '…even Catholics are Christians. Below is another quote where you clearly separate Catholic and Christian.

To say Jesus started the Catholic Church to me is not true. The disciples spread Christianity though the nations not the Catholic religion.The first mention of Christianity is in Acts 11:26 - “…The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch”.
When did the disciples and Jesus become Catholic?

I tried to correct the statement when it was made and said there is no Catholic religion. Catholics are Christians. I also told you Christ started a Christian Church and the men of the Church used a language of the times and called it the Catholic Church. I even provided Greek translation of scriptures to show you the Greek terms Catholic was derived from. But you didn’t find that important enough to respond to in order to continue this charade.

The first Church was recognized as the Catholic Church, it still exists today and all Christian Churches have roots that run to it.

All Christians are part of the body of Christ, which is His Church. I pray for those who would do everything in their power to continue to divide the body of Christ, which is against what the scriptures teach.

Another important part of this discussion that no one can intelligently get around is the fact that the early Church was one. There was no acceptable variations in doctrines.

**

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,

Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.

**

 

[LaymanX]

Obviously, any Church born 1500 years later cannot qualify to be that Church because that is just 1500 years too late.

I do not know of any Church that was strictly born “1500 years later.” The idea of a “Roman Catholic Church” was born at the same time the idea of a “Reformation Church” was born. I suppose you mean a Church that ceased to see itself as strictly under the authority of the bishop of the See of Rome? The problem with this definition is that, this would include the Assyrian Church, the Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Church, and all the other denominations.

However, back to the original question. Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? I would take this to mean something like: Did Jesus start “the Church that was strictly under the authority of Peter and those who stand in his place, and which precludes the notion that Peter is primus inter pares (eng. “first among equals”)”? I would have to say that it depends on how we interpret the 3rd canon of the second Ecumenical Council. So the answer is: Maybe! I’m still working this out myself.

In Christ,

Francis

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Christ built a ‘Christian’ Church. Authoritative men of that Church named it the Catholic Church.

Here it says that Christ built a Christian Church first. Then authoritative men NAMED it the Catholic Church. It was made up of ALL Christians not Catholic because there were no Catholics then but Christians and Christians are still around, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist and so on are all Christians. We are all from the Christian Church, that have different names. Catholic, meaning universal, was the first name because Christianity is universal throughout the world and now by many different Christian denominations.

The difference is the dates that the others were founded rev kevin. You cannot change history. All Christian Churches came through the Catholic Church. For hundreds of years there was only ONE Church. Denominations are a product of MEN that separated themselves from the ONE Church.

 

[rinnie]

Body, yes. Person, no. Founded AD 30, as far as I can tell.

Hi Po18guy. Hope you are doing well and healthy, always in my prayers.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the CC. Here is why. God sent God the Son, the Eternal word who is equal to the Father in all ways except in being the Father, That’s alot to think about

Now I believe that Jesus Christ was the word that became Flesh. Now the question would be when did Jesus start the Church?

Did he start the Church before or after his death? It was before. simply because he told us he was here to build HIS CHURCH on Peter.

Now as People say is Peter the Church? NO, Jesus never said Peter is the Church Jesus said he is the Church. The word, that became flesh.

What is the Church to us? It is the word right?

Now we know that here in on ONE GOD, in 3 persons but one divinity. Now we know that the 3 persons do not share the one divinity among themselves. but we do know that each of them is GOD, whole and entire.

Jesus started the CHurch in the PERSON of Christ. But as he told Peter he would have to leave so he could send the Advocate the Holy Spirit.

Now do you know why Jesus said that?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

You are more than welcome…

I, too, have great faith in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Your statement about him changing though needs to be based on some evidence, or else it is a pious hope.

Rev Kev’s previous posts have either ignored or evaded the material presented to him. Additionally, he has come up with unique and unorthodox ideas. His comment about the church being the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is an example that was identified at least twice by Benedictus2.

In my opinion, as a general statement, openness, humility and a contrite heart are necessary for working with the Grace of God for conversion. Such characteristics are evidenced by a willingness to communicate, to confront differences directly and to identify error in one’s previous way of thinking and acting. Ignoring items and evasion of specifics do not point in the direction I was looking. Admittedly, conversion is a life-long process and not necessarily to be accomplished in the scope of this thread…

My position is there is no evidence to support your statement that exists on this thread so far specific to Rev Kev. This does not mean we can not pray for such a change of heart or that such a change will not someday happen - but, these are statements of desire for a future action and not of a historical fact.

The cup of coffee offer is still on…

God bless

Hey bud, Thanks.for being more clear. And No, I have no evidence from Rev Kev personally but I know it will come from the Holy Spirit.

I have more faith in the Holy Spirit then Rev Kev (no offense Rev Kev) What I mean by that is I believe that Rev Kev is doing the best that he can with the truth that he has. Like all of us.

But I also believe that if the Holy Spirit revealed to Rev Kev and I believe in my heart it will, that will be the moment he will come to accept the RCC.

But on the other hand, I believe in my heart he is learning thing’s (as we all can and do) and is trying.

But how I am sure of this, It is like that one post I showed you. That person told me it took alot of searching and struggling to come to the Catholic Faith. But it took time, but it happened.

And we all know that God give’s us not only Grace from the Holy Spriit he gives us free will. And it takes alot of grace and free will to accept thing’s in this world. And alot of time, remember as God told his Apostles, he will give you what you can accept in the time you can accept it.

I trust God and believe in him and believe if Rev is Sincere which I beleive he is, its going down, but I don’t know when. But pray when the day comes and it does go down, Rev kev will PM me and say. Hey guess what. I am part of the RCC!!

 

[rinnie]

Hi Po18guy. Hope you are doing well and healthy, always in my prayers.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the CC. Here is why. God sent God the Son, the Eternal word who is equal to the Father in all ways except in being the Father, That’s alot to think about

Now I believe that Jesus Christ was the word that became Flesh. Now the question would be when did Jesus start the Church?

Did he start the Church before or after his death? It was before. simply because he told us he was here to build HIS CHURCH on Peter.

Now as People say is Peter the Church? NO, Jesus never said Peter is the Church Jesus said he is the Church. The word, that became flesh.

What is the Church to us? It is the word right?

Now we know that here in on ONE GOD, in 3 persons but one divinity. Now we know that the 3 persons do not share the one divinity among themselves. but we do know that each of them is GOD, whole and entire.

Jesus started the CHurch in the PERSON of Christ. But as he told Peter he would have to leave so he could send the Advocate the Holy Spirit.

Now do you know why Jesus said that?

Sorry I was in a hurry as usual What I meant to say is we know there is ONE GOD.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

You are more than welcome…

I, too, have great faith in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Your statement about him changing though needs to be based on some evidence, or else it is a pious hope.

Rev Kev’s previous posts have either ignored or evaded the material presented to him. Additionally, he has come up with unique and unorthodox ideas. His comment about the church being the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is an example that was identified at least twice by Benedictus2.

As a general statement, openness, humility and a contrite heart are necessary for working with the Grace of God for conversion. Such characteristics are evidenced by a willingness to communicate, to confront differences directly and to identify error in one’s previous way of thinking and acting. Ignoring items and evasion of specifics do not point in the direction I was looking. Admittedly, conversion is a life-long process and not necessarily to be accomplished in the scope of this thread…

My position is there is no evidence to support your statement that exists on this thread so far specific to Rev Kev. This does not mean we can not pray for such a change of heart or that such a change will not someday happen - but, these are statements of desire for a future action and not of a historical fact.

The cup of coffee offer is still on…

God bless

Sorry bud, but now coffee is off, could we make it a cold beer instead. I need it. By the way I have to say I feel it is my fault about Rev Kev comparing The Church to the 2nd person of the Trinity which is Jesus.

The Church is Jesus Christ. we know that because he told us that. Now the question is when Jesus was here on earth was he the Church in a human body?

Now when he rose from the dead and was being persecuted by Saul did he say saul was persecuting HIM or the Church? Did Saul have to persecute him in person (human form) to persecute him. OR could Saul persecute him in another way?

Is the Church human and Divine? Is Jesus human and divine?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Prodigal Son1,

I don’t know … basically in six sentences you took down his argument - it takes me paragraphs, and it not nearly as neat! Great post:thumbsup:

In his presentation, I had the distinct feeling he just did not want to engage with relevant material. Post after post from the dictionary that did more to cloud the issue and meaning of ‘church’ than clarify is a new one on me!

Matthew 16:18 is a direct refutation to these arguments presented - so all that seems to be left are just inertia barriers of indifference and status quo. The fact that there is an unbroken succession from Peter to Benedict XVI is of both historic and moral significance to anyone willing to objectively look at evidence.

We will just have to see - but, I am quite confident that Christ founded His Church on Peter and that the Holy Spirit continues to protect it from teaching errors in Faith and Morals. As we look around at the disintegration of many Protestant groups over changes they have made to doctrinal issues - for example, the Anglicans and Lutherans - I am indeed comforted that just like the Church (and that would be the Catholic Church) taught, for example, that the Eucharist is INDEED the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ - we believe that today.

God bless

You claim the Church is a body of believers but have gone to great lengths to exclude the Catholic Church as a part of the body of believers. That’s why some take your argument as ‘anti-Catholic’.

Christ built a ‘Christian’ Church. Authoritative men of that Church named it the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots back to the Catholic Church. The term was derived from the Greek I provided examples of, in SCRIPTURES.

 

[tqualey]

Hold on there a minute, Rev Kev,

I have watched your deficient definition of ‘church’ spiral out of control and many efforts have been made to give you evidenced based facts to correct your interpretation - but, to no avail. Let me try my hand…

You are right in so far as saying that the ‘church’ is not a physical building.

You are also right in identifying the ‘church’ as composed of believers.

You are also right in identifying that Christ is the Founder of Christianity

The problem is you end it there - and, as such, your definition is inadequate.

In Matt 16 we see several things taking place - it is truly a dynamic and dramatic chapter. Here we see Christ the Apostles in an area in an area where they had not reportedly been before - and there is this massive rock formation that Christ is going to use as a backdrop for what follows. Christ now asks the question, “Who do men say that I am?” and He gets all kinds of answers - all of them wrong until God the Father inspires Peter with the Right Answer - Christ is the Son of God! Now, Christ speaks again - not only acknowledging that Peter gave the right answer BUT that God had selected Peter and given him the answer. This is not casual material. God chose Abram to father the Chosen People, God chose Moses to liberate God’s People, God chose Joshua to lead His People into the Promised Land - and God chose Peter on which to Found His Church.

What happens next is that two major developments unfold before our eyes in rapid succession - Christ gives Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (notice, there were not twelves sets of keys!) identifies that he has the authority to bind and lose - AND THEN rebukes Peter - calling him a devil! for trying to correct Christ and divert Him from His Divine Mission.

The significance is that Christ really did found His Chruch (and, that would be the Caholic Church) on Peter and that His Hand-Picked Apostle Leader is perfectly capable of screwing up big time both now and in the future (denying Christ and later being rebuked by Paul for not eating with Gentiles). The Holy Spirit will keep the Catholic Church from teaching error - but, there is no guarantee that its leaders will lead blameless lives. Actually, a brief look at the lives of some its leaders clearly will show that some gave public scandal through public sin. So much so that a lesser organization would have simply fallen. But, the Catholic Church is not a lesser organization - it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ on His chosen apostle - and the Gates of Hell and the traditions of men - will not prevail.

I invite you again to draw a line from Peter to his early successors (from about 33AD - 500AD) and look at what developments took place in the Church. Notice, the leadership is given by the Bishop of Rome. Feel free to take this line out as far as you wish. Ultimately, you will find that it alone moves straight to Benedict XVI - our Holy Father today.

God bless

Originally Posted by rev kevin
Jesus started the church and the church is a group of believers that are Christians,even Catholics are Christian. Therefore Christ started Christianity. If not then who did?

So I am right Christ built a Christian Church and not the Catholic Church. Now the Christian Church was given the name Catholic to say that Christianity is universal. Well this answers the question of “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” NO Christ build/started a Christian Church. :extrahappy::dancing:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kev,

There you go again…

Partial informaiton is just not helpful - yes, you are right that Christ did not ‘name’ His Church founded on Peter. He gave it no name. Yet, in Acts 9:1-2 these early followers of Christ apparently had a name: The Way. Obviously, Christ did not not name them … so, what happened?!

According to the New American Bible, “The Way: a name used by the early Christian community for itself (Acts 18:26; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22). The Essene community at Qumran used the same designation to describe its mode of life.”

Do you think that Saul had these people confused with Essenes who had now decided to follow this Crucified Rabbi? I don’t know - but, we are just left wondering how a name for an obvously nameless or unnamed group got started. There really were many things that Christ is not recorded as having done - and some things He did not do! For example, He did not leave them a copy of the Bible (OT & NT) before leaving - nor did He leave His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) with a policy and procedure manual. The Church was to develop under the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Please re-read Matt 16. There IS NO EVIDENCE that Christ founded multiple, competing and conflicting ‘denominations’. There is no evidence that Christ returned and took away His Calling (direct conflict with Rom 11:29) and told Luther that Christ was re-founding His Church on him, and then a short time later, to tell the same thing to Calvin, and then to Henry VIII, and … well … I think you get the idea. There is no evidence for multiple denominations coming from God. The only evidence is from human tradition…and, you know where that leads.

God bless

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Christ built a ‘Christian’ Church. Authoritative men of that Church named it the Catholic Church.

Here it says that Christ built a Christian Church first. Then authoritative men NAMED it the Catholic Church. It was made up of ALL Christians not Catholic because there were no Catholics then but Christians and Christians are still around, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist and so on are all Christians. We are all from the Christian Church, that have different names. Catholic, meaning universal, was the first name because Christianity is universal throughout the world and now by many different Christian denominations.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pitcharan,

What a beautiful and compassionate post. I noted Rev Kev’s response … but, I think you did an great job!

God bless

Dear Rev Kevin, I don’t believe you are anti-Catholic and am convinced that you belong to Christ as much as me and other Christians do. I invite you to carefully read all what is written about the church started by our Lord and see for yourself that it is in fact the CC.

I have tried to chronologically arrange the key Bible verses that bring out this truth;

This is the gate of the LORD through which the righteous may enter.
I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation.
The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;
the LORD has done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes.
This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it. (Psalm 118:22-24)

The Righteous Branch
Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture! declares the LORD. Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done, declares the LORD. I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing, declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:1-4)

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them
accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the
shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths,
and it will no longer be food for them. 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his
scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue
them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will
bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel,
in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture,
and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in
good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.
I myself will tend my sheep and make them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. I will
place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. (Ezekiel 34:10-15, 23 & 37:24)

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father— and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:9-16)

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matthew 16:18)

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

While the above verses clearly establish that the founding of our church by our Lord is foretold in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.

Now in order to discern that the church founded by Jesus is the CC, you need to wear the hat of an unbiased seeker of truth and you will clearly infer the following truths: (i) Jesus appointed Peter to head the church He founded; (ii) The CC is headed by the Pope in Rome is the only institution that can trace its origin and legacy to the church headed by Peter.

If you are still not convinced, read all the theological works of all churches, listen to all their homilies / sermons / preachings; look at the lives of saints AND IT WILL BE CRYSTAL CLEAR TO YOU, WHO PERFECTLY FIT THE OT DESCRIPTION OF SHEPHERDS AFTER GOD’S OWN HEART.