Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rev_kevin]

No Christ did not build a Christian Church. He simply built a Church. And then the followers began to be called Christian after Him. It was not till the foundation in Antioch that his followers were called Christians.

It was firstly Catholic, i.e. there were already different foundations made in several other cities and all belonged to the one Church.
No the authoritative men, called it what it always was.

It would be like someone starting an international company and having branches in New York, New Delhi, Helsinki, Manila, Hongkong, Johannesburg.
This company was always called ABC. But then later on, they decided that they would call it ABC International. It has always been international but now they have it next to their name as well.
The only Christians back then were Catholics. There were no Methodists, or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Baptists. They simply all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
But back in Acts there was no such thing a Methodists or Baptists only Catholics.
No we don’t. We do not form one Christian Church. If that were so, we would have the same set of beliefs. Did you not say that a church is a group of people with the same beliefs? Since we do not believe in the same things (bar a few doctrines depending on which Church you talk about), then no we are not one Christian Church.
No. Catholic meaning univervisal was the only name because there was only One Catholic Church. Then the other churches stared one thousand five hundred years later. And they are different churches because they have different beliefs.

Below is who originally made the statement in reguards to you first statements you wrote above. But nothing was said to him
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
You claim the Church is a body of believers but have gone to great lengths to exclude the Catholic Church as a part of the body of believers. That’s why some take your argument as ‘anti-Catholic’.

Christ built a ‘Christian’ Church. Authoritative men of that Church named it the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots back to the Catholic Church. The term was derived from the Greek I provided examples of, in SCRIPTURES.

No it wasn’t. You can’t be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. Sorry but they were first called Christians.

Sorry back in Acts they were called Christians not Catholic.

Yes I did say Did you not say that a church is a group of people with the same beliefs? We believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. We believe in the trinity, that Jesus was born of Virgin Mary, was curcified, died and rose from the dead and assended to heaven. All Jesus asked was to believe in him. John 5 24: I ASSURE you, those who LISTEN to MY MESSAGE and BELIEVE God who sent me have ETERNAL LIFE. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. jOHN 6:47 I ASSURE you, ANYONE who BELIEVES IN ME already has ETERNAL LIFE.

No our beliefs are the same as according to what Christ told us to believe. Christ never told us to believe that his mother stayed a virgin, Christ never told us to believe in the Canon or the dogma’s. He said BLIEVE IN ME.

 

[rev_kevin]

And when Paul wrote that letter to the Church in Ephesus, he was writing to a Church the belonged to the Catholic Church. The Church in Ephesus was one with the Church in Antioch, Corinth, Rome, etc, because they all had the same doctrine.

The Church in Ephesus did not make up it’s own set of beliefs based on the Bible because they did not even have the Bible then.

The Truth is not the Church, the Church has the Truth because she was founded by Truth Himself.

Unity will only be achieved if all the Churches like the Churches in Acts and the early Christians believe in all the same doctrines and under one shepherd.

Excellent quote. And the Church that Paul was referring to in that letter was the Catholic Church for back then, there was only One Church. The Christian denominations started only one thousand five hundred years later.

God only has one household, not several households.

No it doesn’t. When Paul wrote that, he was referring to only one Church - the Catholic Church. The Christian denominations were non existent back then.

It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

 

[Cinette]

Below is who originally made the statement in reguards to you first statements you wrote above. But nothing was said to him
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
You claim the Church is a body of believers but have gone to great lengths to exclude the Catholic Church as a part of the body of believers. That’s why some take your argument as ‘anti-Catholic’.

Christ built a ‘Christian’ Church. Authoritative men of that Church named it the Catholic Church. All Christian Churches have roots back to the Catholic Church. The term was derived from the Greek I provided examples of, in SCRIPTURES.

No it wasn’t. You can’t be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. Sorry but they were first called Christians.

Sorry back in Acts they were called Christians not Catholic.

Yes I did say Did you not say that a church is a group of people with the same beliefs? We believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. We believe in the trinity, that Jesus was born of Virgin Mary, was curcified, died and rose from the dead and assended to heaven. All Jesus asked was to believe in him. John 5 24: I ASSURE you, those who LISTEN to MY MESSAGE and BELIEVE God who sent me have ETERNAL LIFE. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. jOHN 6:47 I ASSURE you, ANYONE who BELIEVES IN ME already has ETERNAL LIFE.

No our beliefs are the same as according to what Christ told us to believe. Christ never told us to believe that his mother stayed a virgin, Christ never told us to believe in the Canon or the dogma’s. He said BLIEVE IN ME.

*One of the things Jesus said more than once but denominations do not accept is contained in John 6:41-69. Many converts to the Catholic Church (including a good number of Ministers) confided that they always skipped these verses and when they came home to the Catholic Church John 6 was one of the things that led them to the Church.

Another thing Jesus said which denominations do not accept is contained in Matthew 16. “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church…”

There are other things which Jesus said which denominations do not accept.

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin, let’s keep it simple; just as the founder of every protestant church can be identified, surely the founder of the CC, in union with Rome, if in fact it is not Jesus, can be identified as well. In the case of each and every PC, it can be proven that Jesus was not the founder, and if the same is true about the CC, all that is left for you to do, is to accurately identify the name of the man or men that founded the CC in union with Rome and when. That would certainly answer the question: Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? Your answer?

How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” NO. Jesus did not come to start a Church. He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.

 

[rev_kevin]

*One of the things Jesus said more than once but denominations do not accept is contained in John 6:41-69. Many converts to the Catholic Church (including a good number of Ministers) confided that they always skipped these verses and when they came home to the Catholic Church John 6 was one of the things that led them to the Church.

Another thing Jesus said which denominations do not accept is contained in Matthew 16. “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church…”

There are other things which Jesus said which denominations do not accept.

Ya the do, or at least I do. but they nor I see it the same way the CC see’s it.

 

[At_Trent]

It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

Problem is, in Christ’s time, his followers were called disciples and brethren. Next they became known as Christians, and not long after, all Christians were called Catholics.

All of today’s non-Catholic Christian’s ancestors were Catholic before the time of Calvin, Luther and the rest.

Is a Baptist or other denomination a Christian ? By today’s use of the word, yes. But they are separated from the Church of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. They are separated in that they are non-practicing Catholics. In cases where they openly deny the Doctrines of the Church, they are Heretics.

That is how it was explained by a Redemptorist missionary I met.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev,
After 26 pages of this thread,
Who do you think started the Catholic Church?
Please answer once and for all.

St. Ignatious of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans (Smyrna), in or about 110 AD, is the first recorded evidence/document identifying the Christian church as “The Catholic Church.” Polycarp, in or about 155 AD would also use the term “Catholic Church” in his writings.

It can not be considered/called the Catholic Church until it is named the Catholic Church.

 

[At_Trent]

Ya the do, or at least I do. but they nor I see it the same way the CC see’s it.

I mean this not as an insult or swipe, but as your affiliation indicates, you have “a” religion. Man made, not of Christ’s Church.

 

[rev_kevin]

Problem is, in Christ’s time, his followers were called disciples and brethren. Next they became known as Christians, and not long after, all Christians were called Catholics.

All of today’s non-Catholic Christian’s ancestors were Catholic before the time of Calvin, Luther and the rest.

Is a Baptist or other denomination a Christian ? By today’s use of the word, yes. But they are separated from the Church of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. They are separated in that they are non-practicing Catholics. In cases where they openly deny the Doctrines of the Church, they are Heretics.

That is how it was explained by a Redemptorist missionary I met.

Isn’t that what I posted. Originally Posted by rev kevin
It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

 

[rev_kevin]

I mean this not as an insult or swipe, but as your affiliation indicates, you have “a” religion. Man made, not of Christ’s Church.

I am a Christian, a believer in Christ there for I am a part of his Church. No where does it say I have to be Catholic to be a part of his Church except in Catholic doctrine.

 

[At_Trent]

St. Ignatious of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans (Smyrna), in or about 110 AD, is the first recorded evidence/document identifying the Christian church as “The Catholic Church.” Polycarp, in or about 155 AD would also use the term “Catholic Church” in his writings.

It can not be considered/called the Catholic Church until it is named the Catholic Church.

No, Christ did not start a Church called the “Catholic Church”. No matter how it became known as Catholic, the Catholic Church of the time of St Polycarp is the same Catholic Church of today.

If you were to say Church of Christ, you would be speaking of the Catholic Church. The Denomination, Church of Christ, is not a member of the Church Christ started. The Catholic Church is that Church.

 

[At_Trent]

I am a Christian, a believer in Christ there for I am a part of his Church. No where does it say I have to be Catholic to be a part of his Church except in Catholic doctrine.

You are not in full communion with His Church though. His Church is validated by virtue of Apostolic Succession.

 

[At_Trent]

St Polycarp didn’t start a new Church and call it Catholic.

 

[rev_kevin]

No, Christ did not start a Church called the “Catholic Church”. No matter how it became known as Catholic, the Catholic Church of the time of St Polycarp is the same Catholic Church of today.

If you were to say Church of Christ, you would be speaking of the Catholic Church. The Denomination, Church of Christ, is not a member of the Church Christ started. The Catholic Church is that Church.

It was not called Church of Christ. It was called Church.

 

[rev_kevin]

You are not in full communion with His Church though. His Church is validated by virtue of Apostolic Succession.

Oh so Jesus said we are only in full communion with his church only through Apostolic Succession? I don’t recall seeing where Jesus said that.

 

[rev_kevin]

St Polycarp didn’t start a new Church and call it Catholic.

Where did I say he started a new chuch?

 

[benedictus2]

No it wasn’t. You can’t be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. Sorry but they were first called Christians.

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God?

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch?

Nothing could be more absurd.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that.

**Reality precedes the term.

**Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto.

**And the reality was, the Church was always Catholic and always Christian. Back then they mean one and the same thing as our Lord intended.
**
So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but **back then Christian = Catholic. **

Sorry back in Acts they were called Christians not Catholic.

That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics.

Yes I did say Did you not say that a church is a group of people with the same beliefs? We believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. We believe in the trinity, that Jesus was born of Virgin Mary, was curcified, died and rose from the dead and assended to heaven. All Jesus asked was to believe in him. John 5 24: I ASSURE you, those who LISTEN to MY MESSAGE and BELIEVE God who sent me have ETERNAL LIFE. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that EVERYONE who BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. jOHN 6:47 I ASSURE you, ANYONE who BELIEVES IN ME already has ETERNAL LIFE.

Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants.

No our beliefs are the same as according to what Christ told us to believe. Christ never told us to believe that his mother stayed a virgin, Christ never told us to believe in the Canon or the dogma’s. He said BLIEVE IN ME.

He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.

Read the Gospels. You will find out that Christ said and did much, much more than that.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed.

 

[benedictus2]

It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

Sorry but I have just proved you wrong in a previous post.

Reality preceeds a name. A rose is always was always a rose even before mankind called it a rose.

God was always God even before we referred to Him as God.

The Church from the time it broke out of Judaism by preaching to the gentiles, became Catholic right there and then.

 

[benedictus2]

How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” **NO. Jesus did not come to start a Church. **He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.

The Bible proves you wrong. Matthew 16:18. As a matter of fact, you’ve already agreed a few posts back that Jesus did start a Church. So it is nonsensical to say the contrary this late in the piece.

 

[JVSantos]

Sorry but I have just proved you wrong in a previous post.

Reality preceeds a name. A rose is always was always a rose even before mankind called it a rose.

God was always God even before we referred to Him as God.

The Church from the time it broke out of Judaism by preaching to the gentiles, became Catholic right there and then.

Bingo!