Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[benedictus2]

I am a Christian, a believer in Christ there for I am a part of his Church. No where does it say I have to be Catholic to be a part of his Church except in Catholic doctrine.

No. The Bible says it too.

In the last verse of Acts 2, we read that those of “being saved” were being added to “their number”. “Their number” refers to the group of believers (the Church). So therefore to be saved meant to be added to the Church.

Jesus entrust His sheep to Peter. So therefore those who belong to Christ are those who are being tended by Peter and His successors.

 

[rev_kevin]

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God?

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch?

Nothing could be more absurd.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that.

**Reality precedes the term.

**Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto.

**And the reality was, the Church was always Catholic and always Christian. Back then they mean one and the same thing as our Lord intended.
**
So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but **back then Christian = Catholic. **
That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics.
Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants.
He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.

Read the Gospels. You will find out that Christ said and did much, much more than that.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed.

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic. What? You can’t be serious.They were Christians/believers not Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God? That don’t mean a Christian has always been Catholic. There are Christians today that are not Catholic.

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch? Ya they were called believers and then called Christians. But they were believers first.

Nothing could be more absurd. Now, now. Lets be nice here.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that. I was not a man until I became a man. Not all Christians become Catholic.

Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto. And all Christians did not become Catholic because they were named Catholic.

So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but back then Christian = Catholic. No Christian = Christian.How can they belong to something before it was.

That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics No Acts did not refer to Christians as Catholics. They were Christians. That is what you want to believe. It never states they were Catholic. They were Christians plain and simple. Christians.

Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants. I ask you where in the Bible does Jesus say this? Where does Jesus say that its a Communion of Saints and of believing in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH?

He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.
Sure he said those things but did he say BELIEVE in them? No he said BELIEVE in me. The word here is BELIEVE.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed Believe who? Christ when he said believe in me or the Catholic Church that says you have to believe in what we say is true? I take Christ.

 

[Cinette]

How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” NO.Jesus did not come to start a Church. He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.

**
*If Jesus did not come to found a Church then what did he mean when he said to Peter “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church?”

*

 

[rev_kevin]

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God?

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch?

Nothing could be more absurd.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that.

**Reality precedes the term.

**Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto.

**And the reality was, the Church was always Catholic and always Christian. Back then they mean one and the same thing as our Lord intended.
**
So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but **back then Christian = Catholic. **
That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics.
Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants.
He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.

Read the Gospels. You will find out that Christ said and did much, much more than that.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed.

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic. What? You can’t be serious.They were Christians/believers not Catholic.

Let, me put it this way, before we called Jesus God, was Jesus not always God? Did Jesus only become God when we called Him God? That don’t mean a Christian has always been Catholic. There are Christians today that are not Catholic.

Further, does that mean that all those first Christians, were they not always Christians since there were only called Christians at Antioch? Did they only become Christians when they were referred to as such in Antioch? Ya they were called believers and then called Christians. But they were believers first.

Nothing could be more absurd. Now, now. Lets be nice here.

Or let’s take you. Until someone called you a man, were you not a man before that. I was not a man until I became a man. Not all Christians become Catholic.

Another example, before we ever discovered all those planets, they were always planets. We just have not given them the name. Pluto did not become pluto when we called it pluto. And all Christians did not become Catholic because they were named Catholic.

So you are quite wrong. They were always Catholics by the simple fact that they all belonged to the One Holy Catholic Church. Of course they were Christians from the begining too, but back then Christian = Catholic. No Christian = Christian.How can they belong to something before it was.

That maybe true. But the only Christians being referred to in Acts were Catholics. There were no protestants then. As a matter of fact, the only ones that can be called protestants back then were the heretics No Acts did not refer to Christians as Catholics. They were Christians. That is what you want to believe. It never states they were Catholic. They were Christians plain and simple. Christians.

Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants. I ask you where in the Bible does Jesus say this? Where does Jesus say that its a Communion of Saints and of believing in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH?

He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.
Sure he said those things but did he say BELIEVE in them? No he said BELIEVE in me. The word here is BELIEVE.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed Believe who? Christ when he said believe in me or the Catholic Church that says you have to believe in what we say is true? I take Christ.

 

[Cinette]

St. Ignatious of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans (Smyrna), in or about 110 AD, is the first recorded evidence/document identifying the Christian church as “The Catholic Church.” Polycarp, in or about 155 AD would also use the term “Catholic Church” in his writings.

It can not be considered/called the Catholic Church until it is named the Catholic Church.

*When I was in my Mother’s womb she decided on my name and would talk about her unborn baby by name. Most expectant Mother do not do so but when they do it does not mean that the baby only becomes a person when it is named.

“Where the bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church” - Ignatius of Antioch (I think it was about 95 AD - not sure but I know that it was before the next century)

You are nit picking and being contrary Kevin.

 

[Cinette]

Isn’t that what I posted. Originally Posted by rev kevin
It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

Your logic is astounding!:whacky::whacky::whacky:

 

[Cinette]

:tsktsk:

I am a Christian, a believer in Christ there for I am a part of his Church. No where does it say I have to be Catholic to be a part of his Church except in Catholic doctrine.

:tsktsk::tsktsk::tsktsk:

 

[Cinette]

Oh so Jesus said we are only in full communion with his church only through Apostolic Succession? I don’t recall seeing where Jesus said that.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Pitcharan]

Sorry but I have just proved you wrong in a previous post.

Reality preceeds a name. A rose is always was always a rose even before mankind called it a rose.

God was always God even before we referred to Him as God.

The Church from the time it broke out of Judaism by preaching to the gentiles, became Catholic right there and then.

In 1987, I once attended Mass in a protestant (Anglican communion) church. They also recite the Creed saying “I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church”.

 

[Cinette]

Before they were first called Christian they were always Catholic. What? You can’t be serious.They were Christians/believers not Catholic.

…

Well sorry to disabuse you of that notion. We do not believe in the same thing except for the basic tenets. There is more to being Christian than believing in the above. There is the matter of the Communion of Saints and of bellieving in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So no we are not One Christian Church. Even the Protestant Church is NOT One Christian Church. You cannot find a group more fragmented than Protestants. I ask you where in the Bible does Jesus say this? Where does Jesus say that its a Communion of Saints and of believing in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH?

He said more than that. He said He will build His Church upon Peter and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.
Sure he said those things but did he say BELIEVE in them? No he said BELIEVE in me. The word here is BELIEVE. Logic :whacky::whacky: I also wonder if English is your original language??

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed Believe who? Christ when he said believe in me or the Catholic Church that says you have to believe in what we say is true? I take Christ.I do not understand this sentence - please explain.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi, Pitcharan,

What a beautiful and compassionate post. I noted Rev Kev’s response … but, I think you did an great job!

God bless

Thank you Tom for those encouraging kind words. God bless you.

 

[Cinette]

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.
Sure he said those things but did he say BELIEVE in them? No he said BELIEVE in me. The word here is BELIEVE.:whacky::whacky::whacky:
*I refer again to your above statement.

How can you believe in Christ and not believe in what he says???

Where is it in the Bible that Christ said things in which you must not believe - only in Him?

How can this make sense to anyone, EVEN to you?

*

 

[Pitcharan]

…

He said eat my body and drink my blood.
He said Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them… whose sins your retain they are retained.
Sure he said those things but did he say BELIEVE in them? No he said BELIEVE in me. The word here is BELIEVE.

And a Christian believes ALL. Not just those that He chooses to believe. One does not pick and choose when it comes to what Christ said and willed Believe who? Christ when he said believe in me or the Catholic Church that says you have to believe in what we say is true? I take Christ.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message (John 17:20)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No our beliefs are the same as according to what Christ told us to believe. Christ never told us to believe that his mother stayed a virgin, Christ never told us to believe in the Canon or the dogma’s. He said BLIEVE IN ME.

Christ never told us there would be many denominations of believers, all with slight to great differences in doctrines.

Christ never taught the people to go start a new Church if you didn’t agree people in the Church He started.

Christ never told us to interpret scriptures for ourselves.

Christ never told us what books would be in the New Testament.

Christ never told anyone to write more scriptures to be added to the Old Testament, nor did He write anything Himself.

Christ never told us that the scriptures would be the final authoritative word and if it wasn’t written down, it was not to be believed.

Christ never told us to continually attack His believers if they believed something you didn’t personally agree with.

**

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

We can see the terms the word was derived from in scriptures themselves. We can read writings by St. Ignatius from 107AD, approximately the same time John authored Revelation, and see he used the termed. From that writing, we see Ignatius used the term and did not explain it’s meaning as if he was introducing the term.

What we can see is exactly when terms like ‘Baptist Church’, ‘Methodist Church’, ‘Presbyterian Church’, ‘Non-denominational Church’, etc. etc. etc. were introduced and used. Scriptures didn’t mention any of them, period.

Luther never denied the existence of the Catholic Church or it’s founding. That came much later, by people bent on dividing the body of Christ and keeping it divided.

 

[JustaServant]

Isn’t that what I posted. Originally Posted by rev kevin
It can not be called Catholic until it was named Catholic. The church was a Christian Church not a Catholic Church. You can not call something Catholic before it was named Catholic. Period.

Could you please enlighten us as to when the Catholic Church started?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Joe370,

What an excellent statement!

I am sure many of us will wait in vain for an answer (other than Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church on Peter) to be provided.

God bless

Tom

Well, just as the founder of every protestant church can be identified, surely the founder of the CC, in union with Rome, if in fact it is not Jesus, can be identified. In the case of each and every PC, it can be proven that Jesus was not the founder, and if the same is true about the CC, all that is left for a protestant to do, is to accurately identify the name of the man or men that founded the CC in union with Rome. That would certainly answer the question: Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

Any suggestions my non-Catholic brothers and sisters?

 

[GaryTaylor]

You are not in full communion with His Church though. His Church is validated by virtue of Apostolic Succession.

And they are guided by the Holy Spirit. And when you place all the Bishops together its impossible they could be wrong, because then at that point, the Holy Spirit is among them guiding them.

And what Christ stated which was “What you bind on Earth, will be bound in Heaven” And through history that brings us right here to this day. And all those Doctrines which are inspired by the Holy Spirit that so many in denominations chose to think of as insignificant, then become a fatal error in judgement to them.

The Bible ended in Revelation. Christs church didn’t end nor did Christ in real time. He lives and rules His kingdom on earth through the church and through Apostolic Succession, and the Holy Spirit guides the church in a very real profound way.

 

[At_Trent]

And they are guided by the Holy Spirit. And when you place all the Bishops together its impossible they could be wrong, because then at that point, the Holy Spirit is among them guiding them.

And what Christ stated which was “What you bind on Earth, will be bound in Heaven” And through history that brings us right here to this day. And all those Doctrines which are inspired by the Holy Spirit that so many in denominations chose to think of as insignificant, then become a fatal error in judgement to them.

The Bible ended in Revelation. Christs church didn’t end nor did Christ in real time. He lives and rules His kingdom on earth through the church and through Apostolic Succession, and the Holy Spirit guides the church in a very real profound way.

Well stated, much better than I could have.

 

[At_Trent]

No, Christ did not start a Church called the “Catholic Church”. No matter how it became known as Catholic, the Catholic Church of the time of St Polycarp is the same Catholic Church of today.

If you were to say Church of Christ, you would be speaking of the Catholic Church. The Denomination, Church of Christ, is not a member of the Church Christ started. The Catholic Church is that Church.

St Polycarp didn’t start a new Church and call it Catholic.

It was not called Church of Christ. It was called Church.

No one on this thread has argued the label was used in the early Church. You are just trying to use descriptive terms to argue the Catholic Church is not the Church Christ started. That’s incorrect.

Also,
I would say, imo, that those who initially left the Church, the Lutherans and the rest, in fact broke the Commandment “Honor your father and your mother”. By their will, those parents raised their children Catholic with the intention they be Catholic. Those children of those who left the Church are not part of that, for they were raised Protestant. The Church may not agree with that, and if I’m wrong, I would certainly retract my opinion.