Did Jesus write the Bible or build a church?

[jmcrae]

Probably after he saw the *In hoc signe vinci *(Sp). Constantine was baptized on his death bed, probably as “fire insurance” but his conversion to Christianity, from what I read, was more politically motivated than a religious experience. Don’t ask me where I read it I can’t remember.

How could he “convert to” a religion that he had yet to invent?

 

[avflf]

But we have shown you that there was a Universal Chruch recognized by Early Christians in the late 1st Centiry-well over 300 years befoe Constantine came along.

Run that one through me again. I can’t remember what you said or where the post is

 

[avflf]

How could he “convert to” a religion that he had yet to invent?

How do you get that one? The Christian faith and its adherents were known as far back as the time Luke wrote the Acts as it says in Ac.11:26 that the followers of the Christ were first known as Christians in Anthioch. But by giving his blessing to Rome as the see of power he unified the faith throughout the Empire.

 

[estesbob]

How do you get that one? The Christian faith and its adherents were known as far back as the time Luke wrote the Acts as it says in Ac.11:26 that the followers of the Christ were first known as Christians in Anthioch. But by giving his blessing to Rome as the see of power he unified the faith throughout the Empire.

But as has been shown to you repeatedly the Chrisian Faith had already been unifed throughout the empire long before Consantine came along.

 

[jmcrae]

Run that one through me again. I can’t remember what you said or where the post is

Post 100

 

[jmcrae]

How do you get that one? The Christian faith and its adherents were known as far back as the time Luke wrote the Acts as it says in Ac.11:26 that the followers of the Christ were first known as Christians in Anthioch.

Yes. ONE Church, at the time of Luke, while the Apostles were still living.

But by giving his blessing to Rome as the see of power he unified the faith throughout the Empire.

All Contstantine did was make an already-existing religion legal to practice, for his mother’s sake. His mother, by the way, was St. Helena, who was the first Christian archaeologist - she discovered the True Cross, and brought the relics of it back to Rome. She was going to Catholic Mass and praying to Catholic Saints even before Constantine was born.

 

[Man]

Exactly, and it was not till the unification of the various churches that the word/status Catholic, Gk. *katholikos *meaning Universal, came to be.

This is a complete evasion of my point, so much so that it is almost like you intended insult. It is clear that the Churches were already united and they used the council to find out exactly what was important.

Is this the time you determined it “changed” and became evil?

That is what you’re evading…

 

[avflf]

All Contstantine did was make an already-existing religion legal to practice, for his mother’s sake. His mother, by the way, was St. Helena, who was the first Christian archaeologist - she discovered the True Cross, and brought the relics of it back to Rome. .

They don’t make crosses the way they did anymore. Long lasting wood:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

They don’t make crosses the way they did anymore. Long lasting wood:thumbsup:

It was a dry climate. 240 years is really not all that long - my Dad owns a wooden clock that’s older than that, and it’s still in very good shape.

 

[reunify]

great thread topic… he built a Church!

 

[avflf]

This is a complete evasion of my point, so much so that it is almost like you intended insult. It is clear that the Churches were already united and they used the council to find out exactly what was important.

Is this the time you determined it “changed” and became evil?

That is what you’re evading…

Insult was the last thing in my mind and I find it difficult to understand why you felt this way.

I do not believe that Roman Catholicism is evil. It is a religious belief like many others. I have nothing against it and my posts are not written to uphold Protestantism or any other ism; just for the sake of discussion.

 

[Man]

Insult was the last thing in my mind and I find it difficult to understand why you felt this way.

I do not believe that Roman Catholicism is evil. It is a religious belief like many others. I have nothing against it and my posts are not written to uphold Protestantism or any other ism; just for the sake of discussion.

Perhaps I should have deleted that. I became confused somewhere I think…

My disagreement was that churches were cultivated and lead by the Apostles, who, you are right, did not attempt to destroy whatever culture was there, but cultivate Christ within it. The manner of worship was apparently largely the similar and similar to what it is today.

 

[fellowChristian]

Ok if you don’t want to believe St. Peter was the first head bishop left in charge of the church Jesus left us.

What about Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21, Anacletus,or Clement who wrote letters http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ , or the other head bishops that came long before Contstantine? The Catholic Church was in full swing long before Constantine was even born.

The List of Popes

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) – also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) – also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

And are you going to say that Jesus left Constantine the keyes? And that we have Constantine to thank for our Bible? Look at the years the Catholic Church was on their 33rd pope by that time.

 

[fellowChristian]

The church was in full swing before the pope and the bishops got together at the Council of Rome in 382ad. and put the letters together that make up the canon of the New Testament.

Constantine died in 337ad. 45 years before the Council of Rome.

 

[Teflon93]

Ok if you don’t want to believe St. Peter was the first head bishop left in charge of the church Jesus left us.

What about Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21, Anacletus,or Clement who wrote letters http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ , or the other head bishops that came long before Contstantine? The Catholic Church was in full swing long before Constantine was even born.

The List of Popes

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) – also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) – also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66)
St. Damasus I (366-83)
St. Siricius (384-99)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

And are you going to say that Jesus left Constantine the keyes? And that we have Constantine to thank for our Bible? Look at the years the Catholic Church was on their 33rd pope by that time.

The Constantine response threw me as well. What is interesting is that there was a long tradition of Roman Emperors founding new religions, typically with themselves as god, but Constantine didn’t claim to be doing that at all. I don’t know where people get the notion that he founded the Catholic Church, and when pressed when precisely he did, you never get the same answer.

Not to mention what happened to all the people who were under papal authority at the instant the Emperor allegedly founded the new church. Did they all instantly become new Catholics? Without any fuss at all?

It not only lacks documentation, but makes no sense.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Constantine legalized the Church. He did not found it. Christ founded the Church on Peter when he gave him the keys.

 

[avflf]

Ok if you don’t want to believe St. Peter was the first head bishop left in charge of the church Jesus left us.

What about Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21, Anacletus,or Clement who wrote letters http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ , or the other head bishops that came long before Contstantine? The Catholic Church was in full swing long before Constantine was even born.

The List of Popes
…

And are you going to say that Jesus left Constantine the keyes? And that we have Constantine to thank for our Bible? Look at the years the Catholic Church was on their 33rd pope by that time.

(2Ti 4:19-21) Salute **Prisca **and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
**Erastus **abode at Corinth: but **Trophimus **have I left at Miletum sick.
Do thy diligence to come before winter. **Eubulus **greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.

9 people are mentioned at the end of this Epistle. Were their names put in an ecclesiatic hat, when the list of Popes was being compiled, or was it a case of ene, mene, myne, mo, and lucky Linus was drawn first ? (under the guidance of the Spirit(s) of course)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Constantine response threw me as well…

From Catholic Bridge:

Christians were having “Catholic” Masses long before this “legalization” of Christianity. Three hundred years before Constantine, Christians believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, honoured Mary, had elaborate ceremonies, believed in Purgatory, respected the Church hierarchy, baptized babies, recognized Peter as the Rock …

Susan Fortin explains that the word Catholic was used before the end of the first century. She writes:

St. Ignatius

of Antioch, apostolic Father and bishop. He was a disciple of St. John, along with St. Polycarp. Theodoret, the Church historian says he was consecrated bishop by St. Peter, who was at first bishop of Antioch before going to Rome. Ignatius was martyred in Rome under Emperor Trajan’s rule. It was during the journey to Rome that he wrote his famous letters that contain invaluble information about the early Church. He was the first to use the term “Catholic” to describe the Church.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The situation of the early Church in Rome was not unlike modern day China. Christians were being thrown to the lions, torn limb from limb. They were under great persecution. This was inhibiting Jesus’ command to proclaim the Good News from the housetops.

Therefore whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered behind closed doors will be proclaimed from the housetops

. I tell you my friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after that can do nothing more. (Lk 12:3-4)This Scripture passage was not only a command, it was a prophesy of things to come, and it did not come to pass until Constantine made Christianity “legal.” It’s pretty hard to proclaim the Good News from a housetop if someone comes along and arrests you and kills you when you preach!

Despite any personal defects we might attribute to Constantine, he performed one of the greatest feats of any man in history. He brought the Church out from under the yoke of oppression and allowed people to preach the gospel from the housetops which is what Christ commanded and prophesied. This action by Constantine saved millions of lives and more importantly, it saved millions of souls… Many Christians… would not be Christian today if it was not this providential twist in history.

end of post

 

[Ani_Ibi]

A little more context around Constantine’s contribution to Christianity being preached from the rooftops. From The Church Before Nicaea in This Rock:

…the Roman state periodically mandated persecutions, either to curtail or wipe out Christianity… The last two great persecutions were all-out assaults, total war against the Catholic Church; they aimed to destroy Christianity, root and branch.

The first was launched by the Emperor Decius in A.D. 250, and an even greater one was unleashed by the Emperor Diocletian in 303. Both were intended to be empire-wide, and both were carried forward determinedly for the better part of a decade. Holy books were confiscated and destroyed, churches were razed, and Christians were arrested and forced to offer pagan sacrifices on pain of torture and death.

When the Diocletian persecution finally proved to be a costly failure, the stage was set for the great reversal of policy by the Emperor Constantine in 313… Constantine had a dream that convinced him he would conquer in the “heavenly sign” of Jesus Christ (“In hoc signo vinces”)… the dream of Constantine meant that the emperor had come to believe in the God worshiped by the Christians.

This new conviction was to bring about a change in the attitude of the Roman state toward the Catholic Church… In March 313, Constantine and his co-emperor Licinius issued the Edict of Milan… If the Empire could not succeed in destroying the Church, then the wisest policy was to attempt to enroll this far-flung, well-organized, and highly motivated-even if rather strange-new body as an ally…

This was the policy that Constantine and his successor Christian emperors sought to follow.