Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

[why_me]

From LDS articles of faith:
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

In practice, from what I experienced, the BoM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price are emphasized more than the Bible. While growing up, I was encouraged to read the BoM more than the Bible.

This is not exactly true. The lds church stresses all the major works of its faith and this includes the bible. The entire last year was dedicated to the New Testament Now this year will be the book of mormon. However, the book of mormon is also encouraged reading since it is another testament of Jesus.

 

[why_me]

i find apostate to be much worse but certainly calling the creeds abomination would be the worst. some of the facts ARE cruel and malicious.

If we put the comment made through JS by God into an historical perspective, we can see that there could be some claim of truth in the abomination term. First the christian religions at that time were involved in the destruction of the Native American. The religious faiths and their followers thought of the indian as a savage, to be killed or slaughtered. That is an abomination. Second, the christians in Europe were an unfriendly group of people toward people of a different christian faith. Thus, certain christians left their homeland and came to the USA. Lack of christian brotherhood and sisterhood would differently be an abomination in the sight of god. Third, judgementalism was rife in the christian world and punishment for unconformity was harsh. Consider the burnings at the stake. Plus the the crimes committed during the reformation and the bloodshed. All abominations in the site of god.

I am sure that I can go on if I take some time about the abominations in Europe and in the ‘christian’ colonies under occupation from a christian europe.

 

[why_me]

Some points to note here. I have never called a Catholic person an “apostate” just for being a “Catholic”. When I have applied that term to specific individuals, or set of individuals, I have used it in a very limited and narrow sense. By “apostate” I mean someone who leaves his church or religion, and then hates it, turns against it, wages war against it, and calls it all kinds of evil and hateful names. Religion is a matter of personal choice. If somebody finds that Mormonism, or Catholicism, or Islam, or any other religion does not turn him on, and wishes to leave it and join another religion, that is fine; I have nothing against anyone doing that. Everyone should be free to choose whatever religion the wish to have. But when they afterwards turn against their former religion, declare war against it, and call it all kinds of evil and abusive names, that is a sign that they have something else up their sleeve. I have as much contempt for a Catholic person who leaves the Catholic Church and acts in this way (as many of them do, who become Protestants or Evangelicals, for example), as I have for a Mormon who leaves Mormonism, and then does the same. I am pleased to note that I have never come across a former Catholic turned Mormon that has acted in this way. There may be a few (if there are, they are certainly misguided); but I am glad that I have never come across one yet. Many of them have appeared on this board from time to time; but you can’t show me one that has acted in this way.

zerinus

I can agree with zerinus in his statement. He has never called a catholic an apostate nor as he called me an apostate even though I am attending Mass and finding much benefit in the catholic faith. His term is reserved for the former lds, now catholics who rant and rave against the lds church.

 

[majick275]

If we put the comment made through JS by God into an historical perspective, we can see that there could be some claim of truth in the abomination term. First the christian religions at that time were involved in the destruction of the Native American. The religious faiths and their followers thought of the indian as a savage, to be killed or slaughtered. That is an abomination. Second, the christians in Europe were an unfriendly group of people toward people of a different christian faith. Thus, certain christians left their homeland and came to the USA. Lack of christian brotherhood and sisterhood would differently be an abomination in the sight of god. Third, judgementalism was rife in the christian world and punishment for unconformity was harsh. Consider the burnings at the stake. Plus the the crimes committed during the reformation and the bloodshed. All abominations in the site of god.

I am sure that I can go on if I take some time about the abominations in Europe and in the ‘christian’ colonies under occupation from a christian europe.

his statement was specific to the CREEDS! how are they an abomination? we still profess the same ones at mass.

 

[majick275]

I can agree with zerinus in his statement. He has never called a catholic an apostate nor as he called me an apostate even though I am attending Mass and finding much benefit in the catholic faith. His term is reserved for the former lds, now catholics who rant and rave against the lds church.

actually he has in numerous posts referred to all Christian churches as apostate Christianity, the LDS church BEGINS with the great apostasy and he has always been quick to denounce catholic teachings as apostate in that regard.

define rant and rave. obviously you think any criticism of the LDS church on any level is anti-mormon. ( convenient label to “wave off” the truth of any criticism as irrelevant) then the former LDs who know the truth are marginalized as “apostates” so that either someone is non-LDS and thus “can’t know” the truth or “apostate” and can’t be trusted to speak the truth. nice tight circular reasoning there. of course he hasn’t called you an apostate you are preaching his churches message here.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Not quite. I am not saying that your passion for the Bible is not genuine. What I am saying is that when you gain the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true, you will find that at the same time it will give you an added conviction of the truth of the Bible that you did not have before. You will discover that for yourself one of these days.

zerinus

Yes, that is why i asked. I did not think you actually meant that a person who has never read the Book of Mormon cannot have an interest and appreciation for the Bible.

Yet, i have to ask for clarification one more time: Are you saying that

(1) i do not have as strong a conviction as you that the Bible is true?

or

(2) there are some truths of the Bible in which you trust but in which i am yet unconvinced?
If you are saying (1) please explain why. If you are saying (2) please point out a passage of the Bible that has a truth i do not know and trust and explain what that truth is.

 

[RAR]

Zerinus,

I’ve spent the past several hours (including last night) catching up on this thread… and trust me, it’s taken some time. A quick background on me before I ask my question… I’m an orthodox Catholic living in Utah County. I’ve been impressed by many of my LDS neighbors and enjoy sharing many common values. In honesty though, I also feel a responsibility as I see them as sincerely “misguided.”

I am not so interested in discrediting the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith as I am in beginning a discussion on the early Christian church. My main concern is the Great Apostasy… and the necessary Restoration.

I admire your vigor, but I believe it to be misplaced. I understand your dogged urging that we read prayerfully the Book of Mormon and ask for God’s guidance and I respect your excitement you’ve taken from it and that has spread to the Bible… but, I don’t think our prayerful consideration of the written word is the only measuring stick…

I also think it is important to look at a church’s beginnings. In order for the LDS church to have a valid claim to authority, the Great Apostasy would have had to truly occur and a restoration been necessary…

I believe this to be impossible.

That is a strong word, but I mean it sincerely. For the Great Apostasy to have happened, it would have had to be “total” and “complete.” This could simply not be the case. The only explanations I’ve heard for the Great Apostasy are references to a few Bible verses (Thessalonians for example) that seem minor in comparison to Christ’s words in Matthew: You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. At least on the surface it seems the LDS church gives more credence to verses, whose interpretations are less than clear, than it does to Christ’s own very literal words. In fact, to believe that Christ meant anything else, does disservice to the scriptures and to the Apostles who heard His words.

I think just as crucial to my point, is that Christ also promised he would not leave us, that he would always be with us. If Christ is God incarnate and he established his church on Peter, his rock (as He said), it would seem almost silly to me to believe that He would let His church fall into apostasy. Interestingly, the same manner in which the LDS church confers it’s priesthood, namely the laying on of hands, was also used (and still is today) in the early church to do the same. This is partly why the Church could not have fallen away. The others are the Church magisterium and Apostolic succession, but that is for another discussion.

Again, I understand and appreciate your urging for us to prayerfully approach the Book of Mormon, but I also urge you to prayerfully consider the early Christian church… you might start with reading the early church fathers where you’ll see that the church was still very much intact and is mirrored to this day.

Sincerely,
RAR

 

[RAR]

By the way Socrates4Jesus… I too, learn mainly through discussion and the asking of questions. I have had many a night of long philosophizing on such worth topics, but we must also recognize the danger in philosophizing ourselves right out of ever adopting a stance.

 

[truthsilence]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Church (and so has the LDS Church). I have never spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church, nor have any other Mormons that have posted here. Okay, we believe that Christianity went into apostasy 2,000 years ago (and you probably believe something worse about us); but that does not mean that we believe the Christian religion or the Catholic Church that exists today (or has existed in the past) is an “evil thing”. The LDS Church respects the Catholic Church, and cooperates with it on humanitarian and other issues.

Some points to note here. I have never called a Catholic person an “apostate” just for being a “Catholic”. When I have applied that term to specific individuals, or set of individuals, I have used it in a very limited and narrow sense. By “apostate” I mean someone who leaves his church or religion, and then hates it, turns against it, wages war against it, and calls it all kinds of evil and hateful names. Religion is a matter of personal choice. If somebody finds that Mormonism, or Catholicism, or Islam, or any other religion does not turn him on, and wishes to leave it and join another religion, that is fine; I have nothing against anyone doing that. Everyone should be free to choose whatever religion the wish to have. But when they afterwards turn against their former religion, declare war against it, and call it all kinds of evil and abusive names, that is a sign that they have something else up their sleeve. I have as much contempt for a Catholic person who leaves the Catholic Church and acts in this way (as many of them do, who become Protestants or Evangelicals, for example), as I have for a Mormon who leaves Mormonism, and then does the same. I am pleased to note that I have never come across a former Catholic turned Mormon that has acted in this way. There may be a few (if there are, they are certainly misguided); but I am glad that I have never come across one yet. Many of them have appeared on this board from time to time; but you can’t show me one that has acted in this way.

Most of the people on this board whose actions you have disapproved of are in fact Mormon “apostates,” according to the definition that I have just given above; and I do not hide the fact that I have nothing but contempt for such people. I think that apostates are the most contemptible and despicable people on the planet—no matter what religion they came from—whether they be Mormon apostates, or Catholic apostates, or any other. They are equally contemptible in my sight. Now if they think that that is uncharitable, then so be it. I am an uncharitable person towards apostates.

zerinus

“I have never spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church”,*

You certainly have a selective memory, Zerinus. You have indeed spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church, over and over again. See for yourself.

forums.catholic-questions.org/search.php?searchid=1230082

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

By the way Socrates4Jesus… I too, learn mainly through discussion and the asking of questions. I have had many a night of long philosophizing on such worth topics, but we must also recognize the danger in philosophizing ourselves right out of ever adopting a stance.

I’m seeking wisdom, RAR, for a true philosopher is one who loves wisdom, and a lover of wisdom is what the word philosopher means. Wisdom is a kind or category of truth, so i’m also seeking truth. My search so far has convinced me that Jesus was telling the truth when He said He is the truth. My goal now is to find the answer to the question, “Who is Jesus and how can i know him better?”

Zer appears to be telling me the path to know Jesus better is the Book of Mormon. So, i’m asking him questions to see if this truth stands up to reasonable and rational objections. I’m not only putting his ideas to the test, i’m also testing my own ideas. My goal is to:

Quench not the Spirit.Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. *(1 Thesolonians 5:21)*or as the Catholic New American Bible puts the same verse:

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.

 

[RAR]

Well, Soc… all I can say is Right On! I’ve had a few friends though that would philosophize to the point of frustration while staring into their beer glasses and taking long thoughtful drags on their smokes… I think they rather admired fancying themselves philosphers than they cared to actually get anywhere. My point is that we DO have to be careful not to frustrate a point… and I read previously your etymology of the word “philosopher,” I hadn’t known that, but it makes sense when you break it down. And I agree that we all need to continually seek truth and re-think what we think we know… but, it also has to be done from a foundation for earnest comparison. (not to imply you don’t have a foundation, it is only a statement)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, Soc… all I can say is Right On! I’ve had a few friends though that would philosophize to the point of frustration while staring into their beer glasses and taking long thoughtful drags on their smokes… I think they rather admired fancying themselves philosphers than they cared to actually get anywhere. My point is that we DO have to be careful not to frustrate a point… and I read previously your etymology of the word “philosopher,” I hadn’t known that, but it makes sense when you break it down. And I agree that we all need to continually seek truth and re-think what we think we know… but, it also has to be done from a foundation for earnest comparison. (not to imply you don’t have a foundation, it is only a statement)

Wise, I may not call them, for that name is too great and belongs to God alone. “Lovers of wisdom,” or philosophers, would be a more harmonious and befitting title.
– Socrates (Phaedrus, 278)

…although if we had found the truth ourselves, do you think that we would care much about the opinions of men?
–Socrates (Phaedrus, 274)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

For Socrates, seeking the truth of wisdom was that same as drawing near to the God above all the pagan gods, whom he longed to meet upon his death.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

When i think about it, Socrates paved the way for the Gospel of Jesus for the ancient Greeks in a different way that John the Baptist paved the way for the Gospel of Jesus for the ancient Jewish people.

 

[truthsilence]

Zerinus, here are a few specific quotes to refresh your memory:

“Your church is apostate. It has no priesthood authority to baptize anybody”.

*“Mormonism is the only form of true Christianity. What you believe in is an apostate, false, and dead religion, and the antithesis of true Christianity”

“Historical Christianity is apostate. It apostatized centuries ago, as prophesied in the Bible. It has no legitimate priesthood. It has corrupted and perverted the true doctrines and practices of Christianity, as taught in the Bible and in the early Christian church. It is a corrupt and dead religion, without any form of ecclesiastical legitimacy in the sight of God”

“The Catholic Church has many laws which are illogical, unreasonable, unjustifiable, unscriptural, and wrong. That is nothing new”*

*That only serves to explain why Catholic doctrine is in shambles—and apostate. A sacrament is something that requires divine authority. Without divine authority a valid sacrament cannot be performed—emergency or not.
*

These are your words, Z, and there’s much more of the same where these came from. Care to change your story about never having spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church? Somehow, I doubt you will. You don’t seem to be able to see what’s sitting right in front of you.

 

[why_me]

Zerinus, here are a few specific quotes to refresh your memory:

These are your words, Z, and there’s much more of the same where these came from. Care to change your story about never having spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church? Somehow, I doubt you will. You don’t seem to be able to see what’s sitting right in front of you.

I think that he was referring to calling catholics apostates. This is why he made a distinction between former mormon now catholics railing against the lds and never mormon catholics railing against the church. The former mormon now catholics are apostates since they are waging war against their former faith.

 

[why_me]

And if I see that happening, I’ll say something to him as well. But just because Zerinus may act uncharitably at times does not give everyone else free license to act uncharitably as well. We’re supposed to be better than that, according to Christ. I’m the first to admit that I’ve had my uncharitable moments on this board, but it’s something I’m struggling to correct.

And we must also admit that it is not very easy to see one’s faith trashed as it has been trashed on this section of the forum. Zernius is doing a good job in keeping his call even though the attacks on mormonism never stop.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Zerinus, here are a few specific quotes to refresh your memory:

These are your words, Z, and there’s much more of the same where these came from. Care to change your story about never having spoken disrespectfully of the Catholic Church? Somehow, I doubt you will. You don’t seem to be able to see what’s sitting right in front of you.

TS:

I find no sin in a person saying what he sincerely believes to be the truth. If Zer believes the Catholic church is apostate, and if he believes that all Protestant churches are also apostate, perhaps the most sinful thing he might do is to not point this out, when appropriate.

I do not doubt Zer’s sincerity, i’m just not convinced as to whether or not he is sincere, yet sincerely wrong. If he is right, the Spirit of God will make this clear enough. If he is wrong, the Spirit of God will reveal this. I have nothing to fear from the Truth.

 

[why_me]

his statement was specific to the CREEDS! how are they an abomination? we still profess the same ones at mass.

I suppose that it all depends just who is behind the creeds.For example, have such creeds been man made as many of the protestant creeds were at the time of JS?

And I would think that the catholics would agree with this: that the protestant creeds at that time were man made with resemblances of truth but not the complete truth, right?

And then of course, this brings us to the catholic church which I will not comment on at this time.

 

[why_me]

TS:

I find no sin in a person saying what he sincerely believes to be the truth. If Zer believes the Catholic church is apostate, and if he believes that all Protestant churches are also apostate, perhaps the most sinful thing he might do is to not point this out, when appropriate.

I do not doubt Zer’s sincerity, i’m just not convinced as to whether or not he is sincere, yet sincerely wrong. If he is right, the Spirit of God will make this clear enough. If he is wrong, the Spirit of God will reveal this. I have nothing to fear from the Truth.

If you find peace and comfort in the catholic church, then the catholic church is for you. Likewise for myself. As I have said, I have found more joy in the catholic faith at this moment. The nuns and priests are very nice and supportive and going to Mass takes me back to my boyhood.

And so, if I find more peace and joy in catholicism than in mormonism, I will keep attending mass and also the mormon church to be with my daughters.

Be where god calls you to be.