Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

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Actually, He did not.
My apologies for not being clear, Zer. I was saying i agreed with you about Peter.

:o

I’m not discounting this internal, unspoken witness. After all, Jesus said:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.I’m just asking if Peter and the other followers of Jesus appealed to skeptics on other grounds, in addition to this eternal witness.
 
He based his conviction on the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus
True; i’m not denying that. I’m suggesting that when Peter preached the gospel, he recognized the importance of the internal witness of the Holy Ghost, but you must admit that he also appealed to external witness of the events of history:12When Peter saw this, he said to them: "Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.*(Acts 3)*Is he not telling the crowd that they should base their belief, at least in part, on the objective evidence of the historical fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

I agree with you. I’m asking if you agree with me too. It’s not just a subjective, but strong feeling of conviction the Holy Ghost gives you or i. It’s not just the strength of objective evidence that a dead guy really got up and walked. It’s both.

This seems to be the case in 3 Nephi as well:

12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord aall that day; and behold, the bvoice of the Lord came unto him, saying: 13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the asign be given, and on the bmorrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be cspoken by the mouth of my holy prophets. 14 Behold, I acome unto my own, to bfulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the cfoundation of the world, and to do the dwill, eboth fof the Father and of the Son—of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given. 15 And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled, according as they had been spoken; for behold, at the going down of the asun there was bno darkness; and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came. 16 And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who afell to the earth and became as if they were dead, for they knew that the great bplan of destruction which they had laid for those who believed in the words of the prophets had been frustrated; for the sign which had been given was already at hand. 17 And they began to know that the Son of God must shortly appear; yea, in fine, all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the awest to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished that they fell to the earth. 18 For they knew that the prophets had testified of these things for many years, and that the sign which had been given was already at hand; and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief. (3 Nephi 1) They might have had the internal witness of the Holy Ghost but they also had the external witness of the miracle. Both worked in tandem to bring about their conviction of the truth. See what i mean?
 
Sorry, it looks like I had missed this post!

Possibly. The chronology of the Gospels is a little confusing, and things may not have been narrated in the order in which they occurred. …
Zer:

No problem! and please do not feel as though you must answer every reply. I carefully considered your suggestin that the chronology might be out of order, but have now rejected this idea for two reasons:
    • The Precedent of the Old Testament. Matthew was a Jewish person recording the historical events of God’s visit to earth, and the Jewish people had a long written tradition of making sure the chronology of their historical books was in order. Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, 1 Kings and other books of the Old Testament are all in chronological order.
    • The Gospel of Mark. This Gospel also places the same events in the same chronological order:
    • Mark 5:1-20. Gadarene demon says Jesus is the Son of God.
    • Mark 6:45-52. The disciples say Jesus is the Son of God after He walks on water and calms a storm
    • Mark 8:27-30. Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.
    It appears that for Peter, first there was the external witness of the testimony of other that Jesus was the Son of God, and *after *there was the internal witness of the Holy Ghost the Jesus was the Son of God.

    It’s not either-or, it’s both-and. Don’t you think?
 
😛
Zer:

Please try to understand that i’m a follower of Jesus first, and a follower of Socrates second. Socrates was put to death for his religious belief in a God greater than all the Greek gods and goddesses whom he taught was the source of all wisdom and truth. He was put to death for his search for the truth and wisdom of this God he adored, yet admitted he hardly knew.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). Socratic philosophy is a search for truth. Jesus says He was the truth. Hence, i’m seeking to know him. Isn’t this what Latter Day Saints seek as well?

🤷
I have nothing against you being an admirer of Socrates—provided that you can keep everything else in proper perspective. We believe that:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. … We believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation” (“Statement of the First Presidency regarding God’s Love for All Mankind,” 15 February 1978).

Our church leaders in the past have expressed sentiments to that effect in various sermons they have preached, of which the following is a typical example:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e6a3fc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

But at the same time you must bear in mind that no man can “by searching find out God” (Job 11:7). God can only be known by personal revelation. There is no other way.

zerinus
 
… But at the same time you must bear in mind that no man can “by searching find out God” (Job 11:7). God can only be known by personal revelation. There is no other way.

zerinus
Zer:

Please forgive my ignorance, but i seem to have much to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. I have two requests, which i hope you will grant me:

  1. *]Please describe this personal revelation as best you can (not from the Holy Ghost’s point of view, but from your own personal perspective). Tell me how you know for certain you have had such a revelation. Perhaps i have had such a personal experience myself.
    *]Please answer this question: If external evidence such as fulfilled prophecy is not necessary, then why did Peter, Paul and the prophets of Nephi’s time appeal to it with the result that many put their faith in Christ?
 
There are things that are easily proven as false. The BoM is one of those things. I mean the way in which it came to exist. It is all BS. Does the BoM contain truths? If it does, it contains truths in the same way that a magazine or a newspaper does. Truths, gathered from here and there, matched to a preconceived POV of a group of men. Many mormons continue to do this today. Gathering a certain version of truths, things that match their POV, and often twisting truths from here and there in order to make them fit into their version of truth. To me, this is not the sort of truth I am looking for. I can make that sort of truth out of anything.

Thank you, Rebecca. Your entire post reflects my intention in pointing out anti-Mormon passages in the BOM. The internal contradictions are overwhelming. The internal contradictions in the Bible, written over a long time span can be understood as a maturing of human thought, culminating in the teachings of Jesus, and refined through the traditions of the Catholic Church. .

For me, the Bible and it’s teaching about Christ are completely opposite of mormonism. Rather than being born of power, greed, and control, and a twisting of everything to make it resemble truth, it is one of giving, sacrifice, love and a perfection that is hard to describe as anything but the ultimate truth.

So true.

I see the OT is a relating of human sinfulness, a sort of confession of failure almost. With God constantly guiding, correcting, patiently leading. Showing the way out of sinfulness and human failings.

The NT is the culmination of God’s Love. His Word in the midst of human sinfulness and failure. The ultimate truth.

Human agendas tend to lean towards those things behind the BoM, and found in the stories of the OT. Greed, hunger for power, sinful desires.

Yes, it is very negative, but just like the newspaper, but much more poorly written, much can be learned from it. Just so long as you don’t depend on the LDS interpretation of it. There is a fear of reading it among non-Mormons. So long as one understands its human origins, and that the basic story is true, taken from native legends of the Viking invasion, it will not convert you. The primary lesson I learned from it is the sinful measure of man exemplified in the abuse of religion.

The NT shows us the human failure of the Apostles, the Jewish leaders of the time, the Roman government, and every day people. In contrast, Jesus shows us the perfect truth of God’s Love. That is where Paul found his faith, his belief. And that too is where I look.
 
I am sure Sidney Rigdon was horrified at what he helped create. And I can imagine his absolute horror seeing what it has become today. I am sure he inserted those passages knowing exactly what he was doing. He was a prophet among wolves. 😃
 
So long as one understands its human origins, and that the basic story is true, taken from native legends of the Viking invasion, it will not convert you.
God love you Jerusha, but I don’t buy into your Viking theory. 🙂

The story is plagiarized from at least three sources: the KJV Bible, “View of the Hebrews” by Ethan Smith and the Spaulding Manuscript.
 
:hug1: You know what, Rebecca, that doesn’t matter. So long as you know that an angel didn’t delivered it written on golden plates to Joseph Smith, that is OK. :cool:

But for others, especially those who have been harrassed by Mormons without relief, it may be necessary. If no less authorities than the Smithsonian and Simon Southerton thought the possibility worthy of mentioning in passing, it ought to be explored. Natives of many tribes know the stories have parallels.

" At least three stories"
 
I am sure Sidney Rigdon was horrified at what he helped create. And I can imagine his absolute horror seeing what it has become today. I am sure he inserted those passages knowing exactly what he was doing. He was a prophet among wolves. 😃
Here is an interesting tidbit about Sidney Rigdon:

Conversion of Sidney Rigdon

© 1999 by H. Michael Marquardt. All Rights Reserved.
At Manchester, Ontario County, New York, four missionaries from the Church of Christ departed westward to locate the site to build a temple in the New Jerusalem. They were Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, Jr., Ziba Peterson and Parley P. Pratt. They were elders of the newly established Church of Christ. They departed Manchester about 17 October 1830 with copies of the first edition of the Book of Mormon.

The missionaries arrived in Kirtland, Ohio near Mentor on Friday, 29 October according to a letter written by Oliver Cowdery. They first went to see Rev. Sidney Rigdon at his home and Parley P. Pratt gave him a copy of the Book of Mormon. Pratt was a former minister and friend of Sidney Rigdon. Rigdon was a thirty-seven years old Reformed Baptist pastor with a congregation in Mentor. An early account mentions that the missionaries asked the “brethren of the reformation” "to receive their mission and book as from Heaven, which they said chiefly concerned the western Indians, as being an account of their origin, and a prophecy of their final conversion to [C]hristianity, and made them a white and delightsome people, and be reinstated in the possessing of their lands of which they have been despoiled by the whites."1

Rigdon commenced reading the Book of Mormon but had a hard time becoming convinced of its authenticity. Parley Pratt recalled, "it was with much persuasion and argument, that he [Rigdon] was prevailed on to read it, and after he had read it, he had a great struggle of mind, before he fully believed and embraced it."2

Meetings were held at the Isaac Morley’s farm where there lived those who believed "it was necessary that there should be a community of goods among the brethren."3 A few days later the four missionaries returned to Morley’s farm and performed the first baptisms of their mission. Late on the night of Friday, 5 November, seventeen individuals received the rite of baptism. Cowdery wrote that they “held a meeting with these brethren, and seventeen went immediately forward and were baptized, between eleven and twelve at night” (see below for text).4

Josiah Jones recalled that the missionaries preached in the Methodist meeting house and "exhorted the people to repent of their pride and priestcraft and all other sins, and be baptized by them for the remission of them, for they said that if they had been baptized it was of no avail, for there was no legal administer, neither had been for fourteen hundred years, until God had called them to the office, and had sent them into the world to publish it to this generation."5

The Painesville Telegraph of 15 February 1831 reported that after “seventeen persons were immersed by them in one night” that Rigdon “seemed much displeased” but shortly after “was convinced that Mormonism was true and divine.” On Sunday morning, 7 November Rigdon “had an appointment to preach in the Methodist chapel at Kirtland. He arose to address the congregation apparently much affected and deeply impressed. He seemed exceedingly humble, confessed the sins of his former life, his great pride, ambition, vainglory, &c. &c.” That day twenty-eight baptisms were performed.

Elder Pratt wrote, "At length Mr. Rigdon and many others became convinced that they had no authority to minister in the ordinances of God; and that they had not been legally baptized and ordained. They, therefore, came forward and were baptized by us, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and prayer in the name of Jesus Christ."6

Ten days after the missionaries arrival Rigdon received baptized. The early accounts agree that Sidney Rigdon was baptized on a Monday. The baptism was performed by Oliver Cowdery and the date would have been 8 November 1830. Phebe, Sidney’s wife was also baptized by Cowdery. The Telegraph reported, "The Monday following he was baptized."7 Josiah Jones also mentions, "On Monday Elder Rigdon was rebaptized."8

As early as 1831 it has been published that Sidney Rigdon had some pre-1830 connection with Joseph Smith, Jr. and the production of the text of the Book of Mormon. It appears that these accounts are not reliable. Parley P. Pratt recalled the visit to Rigdon in the fall of 1830, "We called on Elder S. Rigdon, and then for the first time, his eyes beheld the ‘Book of Mormon;’ I, myself, had the happiness to present it to him in person."9
 
Zer:

Please forgive my ignorance, but i seem to have much to learn about the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. I have two requests, which i hope you will grant me:

Please describe this personal revelation as best you can (not from the Holy Ghost’s point of view, but from your own personal perspective). Tell me how you know for certain you have had such a revelation. Perhaps i have had such a personal experience myself.
I have already answered that question for you in posts #22, #24, and #43. My experiences are personal to me. Spiritual experiences are personal and cannot always be conveyed, transmitted, or described to someone else. If you want to know whether that promise of the Lord made in the Book of Mormon is true or not, you simply have to put it to the test. When the Lord has spoken to you, you will know that He has spoken to you, and you will not have any doubts.
Please answer this question: If external evidence such as fulfilled prophecy is not necessary, then why did Peter, Paul and the prophets of Nephi’s time appeal to it with the result that many put their faith in Christ?
I am not saying that they are not necessary. Fulfillment of prophecy, miracles, and other such like evidences can help to confirm or strengthen our faith. But they are never able alone to bring us to a knowledge, realization, or conviction of God. Pharaoh and his entourage saw all those miracles that Moses Performed; yet they did not believe. The Jews saw all the miracles that Jesus performed, but still did not believe. To the doubting Thomas the Lord said: “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). Paul wrote: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). In modern scripture the Lord has said: “Faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe” (D&C 63:9).

zerinus
 
What to do about Sidney?? He must have been a great actor to fake surprise and conversion!! :rolleyes:
 
Ever hear of lies by those who have an interest in presenting it as “delivered written on golden…dum de dum dum”:rotfl: You believe that and I will deliver Quakers on the moon and Kolob to boot!!
 
What to do about Sidney?? He must have been a great actor to fake surprise and conversion!! :rolleyes:
scn.org/~bp760/saunders.htm

just one:

Statement #4: made by Saunders to the Justice of the Peace (citation #31)
"Statement of Lorenzo Saunders. SS: "Hillsdale County, State of Michigan.
"Lorenzo Saunders being duly sworn deposes and says: "That I reside in Reading, Hillsdale County, State of Michigan; that I was born in the town of Palmyra, Wayne County, State of New York, on June 7, A.D. 1811, and am now seventy-six years of age. That I lived in said town of Palmyra until I was forty-three of age. That I lived within one mile of Joseph Smith at the time said Joseph Smith claimed that he found the ‘tablets’ on which the ‘Book of Mormon’ was revealed. . . . That in March of 1827, on or about the 15th of said month I went to the home of Joseph Smith for the purpose of getting some maple sugar to eat, that when I arrived at the house of said Joseph Smith, I was met at the door by Harrison Smith, Jo’s brother. That at a distance of ten or twelve rods from the house there were five men that were engaged in talking, four of whom I knew, the fifth one was better dressed than the rest of those whom I was acquainted with. I inquired of Harrison Smith who the stranger was? He informed me his name was Sidney Rigdon with whom I afterwards became acquainted with and found to be Sidney Rigdon. This was in March, A.D. 1827, the second spring after the death of my father. I was frequently at the house of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830. . . . That in the summer of 1830, I heard Sidney Rigdon preach a sermon on Mormonism. This was after the ‘Book of Mormon’ had been published, which took about three years from the time Joseph Smith claimed to have had his revelation. Lorenzo Saunders, “Subscribed and sworn to before me this 21st day of July, A.D. 1887. Linus S. Parmelee. Justice of the Peace of Reading, Michigan”
 
I don’t think he ever did. In fact many of his “teachings” contradicted the book he supposedly wrote.
 
I have already answered that question for you in posts #22, #24, and #43. My experiences are personal to me. Spiritual experiences are personal and cannot always be conveyed, transmitted, or described to someone else. If you want to know whether that promise of the Lord made in the Book of Mormon is true or not, you simply have to put it to the test. When the Lord has spoken to you, you will know that He has spoken to you, and you will not have any doubts. …
Fair enough, Zer. If it is too personal a thing to ask i will not pry, for that would be rude and rude love is not.

🙂
 
… I am not saying that they are not necessary. Fulfillment of prophecy, miracles, and other such like evidences can help to confirm or strengthen our faith. But they are never able alone to bring us to a knowledge, realization, or conviction of God. Pharaoh and his entourage saw all those miracles that Moses Performed; yet they did not believe. The Jews saw all the miracles that Jesus performed, but still did not believe. …
Thanks for all the patient answers, Zer! Yes, i agree that even though a person cannot unsee the truth, he might certainly reject it. We are in one accord on this.

I think you are not so far from believing that there is also some role for the evidence of fulfilled miracles to play in developing your faith and mine. For example, i find, after doing much research, that the evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a great reason to believe that what He said about himself is true. The fact that His manor of death and his resurrection was predicted by prophets like Isaiah many hundreds of years before Jesus’ birth is also a great boost to my faith. The resurrection is the most well documented event in human history. I would be surprised if these are not factors in strengthening your faith in Jesus, too.

My thought is that if eyewitness accounts of God’s miracles were not useful for encouraging others to believe, then God would not resort to them. The miracle of 3 Nephi, chapter 1 is an example of this. I ask myself, “Why would God do miracles at all if it were not necessary to bring about our faith?” My opinion is that this is one of the the lessons your or i should glean from 3 Nephi.

Faith, to me, is not a blind leap into a dark chasm, but a step into the light of sound evidence and reason. The personal experiences i have of God’s presence during prayer and at other moments is a boost to my faith, but not the main reason for it. See what i mean?
 
Fair enough, Zer. If it is too personal a thing to ask i will not pry, for that would be rude and rude love is not.

🙂
It is not a question of being rude. Spiritual experiences are often incommunicable. In your earlier post you had asked this question:
Perhaps i have had such a personal experience myself.
If you think that you have already received such an experience, chances are that you have, but you have not yet learned to fully recognize it. One of our Church leaders used to say, “When your heart tells you something that your mind doesn’t know, then you know that the Spirit of the Lord is communicating something to you”. Remember also the quote I gave you from Alma earlier on, where he compared faith to planning a seed. After the seed is planted, it needs to be nourished with care until it bears fruit. If you have already read the chapter of the Book of Mormon I suggested to you, and you get the impression that it might be true, the right response is to put the promise to its full test. Read the Book of Mormon, all of it, and pray in sincerity and in faith that God will open your eyes and enlighten your mind to know if it is true; and before you have finished reading the book you will know the answer to that question.

zerinus
 
… To the doubting Thomas the Lord said: “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). Paul wrote: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). In modern scripture the Lord has said: “Faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe” (D&C 63:9).

zerinus
Zer:

If you have the time, will you explain what Romans 10:17 means to you?
 
… Remember also the quote I gave you from Alma earlier on, where he compared faith to planning a seed. After the seed is planted, it needs to be nourished with care until it bears fruit. If you have already read the chapter of the Book of Mormon I suggested to you, and you get the impression that it might be true, the right response is to put the promise to its full test. Read the Book of Mormon, all of it, and pray in sincerity and in faith that God will open your eyes and enlighten your mind to know if it is true; and before you have finished reading the book you will know the answer to that question.

zerinus
Zer:

Thank you. You are asking me to put the Book of Mormon to the test, but you are not explaining to me how to test it. If you and i were to have a dispute about a sum, we might settle it by using a calculator. If we had a disagreement about the weight of something, we might use a scale. If we were to argue about the distance to a destination, an odometer would end the argument. What i’m asking is what method do i use to measure whether the Book of Mormon is true? I understand you do not have an answer for me, so i shall not pry. However, please read my next reply.
 
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