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valient_Lucy
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Getting answers to questions is overrated. Try staring at the wall. Much more effective.Zerinus:
Sorry for asking so many questions. I find getting answers to my questions is the best way to learn the truth.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Zer:
Here is my concern; please tell me whether you think it is a valid one: The book of 3 Nephi teaches me a valuable lesson in these words:
And it came to pass that from this time forth there began to be lyings sent forth among the people, by Satan, to harden their hearts, to the intent that they might not believe in those signs and wonders which they had seen; but notwithstanding these lyings and deceivings the more part of the people did believe, and were converted unto the Lord. *(3 Nephi 1:22)*and
And it came to pass that thus passed away the *ninety and fifth year also, and the people began to forget those signs and wonders which they had heard, and began to be less and less astonished at a sign or a wonder from heaven, insomuch that they began to be hard in their hearts, and blind in their minds, and began to disbelieve all which they had heard and seenā Imagining up some vain thing in their hearts, that it was wrought by men and by the power of the devil, to lead away and deceive the hearts of the people; and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing. (3 Nephi 2:1-2)
My concern is the answer i believe i will receive when i ask myself and God (and you too!) this: Does a person who is deceived know he is deceived or think that he believes the truth?
Please tell me, what is your answer to my question, my friend Zer?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Iāve heard it said that a person is what she thinks. All in all are you just another brick in the wall?Getting answers to questions is overrated. Try staring at the wall. Much more effective.
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zerinus
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What evidence do you have for the death and resurrection of Christ? I donāt think you have any. You only have the account that is given in the New Testament. How do you know that that account is true? How do you know that it is not a fabrication? The Jews believed (and still believe) that it is a fabrication. How to you know that they are not right?
Those scriptures all came from the Jews; and the Jews interpret all those scriptures differently! They are interpreted in such a way that they are not seen as a fulfillment of the death and resurrection of Christ. How do you know that they are not right?
Such evidences can only serve to strengthen oneās faith once one has acquired the initial testimony of the truth of Christās Atonement by the Holy Ghost; but they by themselves are not sufficient to generate faith in someone.
Miracles are not given to increase our faithāalthough they can have that effect after we have already acquired faith. In fact Jesus has made it clear that miracles happen because of oneās faith, not in order to increase oneās faith. In the New Testament we find the following:
Matthew 13:
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenterās son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Jesus always healed people or performed miracles for them if and when they believed in Him. When they had no faith, or did not believe, He could do no miracles among them. And he performed miracles to bless the lives of people, not to increase other peoplesā faiths. In fact He often told those whom He healed not to tell anybody; but the didnāt take any notice, and went and spread it around anyway. In modern scripture also the Lord has confirmed that to us:
D&C 63:
7 And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation.
8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
12 Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory.
MIracles are performed āfor the good of man, and to Godās glory,ā not to increase someoneās faith.
Faith is not āevidenceā based; otherwise it would not be called faith. Faith is in some measure a leap into the dark! That is why it is called āfaith,ā rather than āknowledgeā. But it is not a complete āleap into the darkā. It is based on a spiritual witness that one receives, not a physical one.
zerinus
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zerinus
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To understand what it means, you need to read it in its context:
Romans 10:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent i.e. by divine authority form God]? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I believe it means that when the word of God is preached by those who have been sent from God (as Paul was), and therefore have proper authority from God to preach His gospel to mankind, that gospel message is accompanied by the power or witness of the Holy Ghost; and that is what generates faith in the hearts of those who hear.
2 Nephi 33:
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
zerinus
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zerinus
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I have just been responding to your messages, and my messages seem to be disappearing! Strange! I will try again.Fair enough, Zer. If it is too personal a thing to ask i will not pry, for that would be rude and rude love is not.
zerinus
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zerinus
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The Book of Mormon tells you how to put it to the test:
Moroni 10:
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
zerinus
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zerinus
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The person who is deceived very often does not know that he is deceived; but the person who has received the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, knows that he has the truth, and is not deceived; because that is how the Spirit of God operates on the mind of man. In LDS scripture the Lord has given us this insight:Zer:
Here is my concern; please tell me whether you think it is a valid one: The book of 3 Nephi teaches me a valuable lesson in these words:
My concern is the answer i believe i will receive when i ask myself and God (and you too!) this: Does a person who is deceived know he is deceived or think that he believes the truth?
Please tell me, what is your answer to my question, my friend Zer?
D&C 46:
7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.
8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;
9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.
The āgiftsā referred to here are the gifts of the Spirit, as taught both in the New Testament as well as in modern LDS scripture. Those who know the truth by the power of the Spirit of God know that they are not deceived.
If one could not trust God that He is capable of revealing the truth to us so that we may not be deceived, how can one trust God in anything? Who is stronger, God or the devil? If you prayed to God, and wasnāt sure you would get your answer from God or from the devil, how can you pray to God in faith for anything? What does that say about your faith in God?
What about all those promises that God made, that He would impart to us of His Spirit, and which would lead us to all truth, and teach us all things (see my earlier posts)? Do you think that God was not truthful when He told us those things? Or do you just think that God is not powerful enough to protect us from the devil when we put our trust in His promises and obey His words?
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zerinus
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Hi Soc,Fair enough, Zer. If it is too personal a thing to ask i will not pry, for that would be rude and rude love is not.
My posts it seems keep disappearing. Are you seeing my messages? Please contact me by PM if you are.
zerinus
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zerinus
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Don_Hepler
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Hi" please forgive me for jumping in like this, but I find this blog, more interesting than what the Catholicās are discussing at this time, and I have read some of your so called learned challenges to your faith. I find your understanding of the scriptures interesting and also those who seem to think they know and do not. You have invited Rebecca to give her (name removed by moderator)ut. May Iā¦We must know that the light of Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world. But to find the truth one must first what to really know, enough to sacrifice all, to know the truth. One must align one self by living to receive light of that knowledge, most people or so called believers do not have any witness that the Bible is true, though they profess it to be so. Nor do they know the anointed one, whom they worship. For they are only caught up in their own learning. But if, one wants to know the truth, he must ponder in his heart the words, and they will enlighten you, quicken ones understanding, and cause the soul to swell. Truth will bear record to the soul. Do I need to see Jesus to know that he lives? And how do you know that he does? Just because you have a bible that someone gave to you, written by the Jews for the Jews, does that give you people claim on a record that 2000 years old. You believe it, because someone told you it was, others were impressed by the stories of a man called Jesus. And you accepted it. What made it truth to you. logic? feeling? impressed? wishing it could be? Or did you see angels coming down from heaven with blowing horns, claiming it to be so. Or was it a still small voice? What do you want to happen, to know the truth of anything that comes from God. The way you want it, is not how it will come. The reason why one does not want the truth, is because they choose what is truth, and if it doesnāt fit into their religious thinking, then that truth will never be made known to them. IF YOU ARE PRAYING TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT ANYTHING, AND YOU DO NOT GET A ANSWER, IT IS, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PRAY OR YOU ARE PRAYING TO A FALSE GOD. Which I am sure that millions are doing. They know not the God whom they worship!!!Thank you, Rebecca, and welcome to the discussion!
Zer and i are trying to determine how one knows what is truth. Would you care to give us your opinion?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Zer:
You have missed so much! It will be my privilege to point out the evidence the Holy Ghost has shown to me despite my past rebellion against Him. There are hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament that have been fulfilled, many of them about Jesus Christ.
Isaiah, for example, wrote about Him. The oldest ancient copy we have of Isaiah is one of the Dead Sea scrolls and was penned around 125 B.C. (more than 125 years prior to Jesusā birth). In chapter 53, it says this:
1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORDās will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,and he will divide the spoils with the strong,because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.(Isaiah 53)
biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=53&version=9
Notice all the predictions about the life, death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus. Verse 5 is the most astonishing to me:
**But he was pierced for our transgressions, ****he was crushed for our iniquities; ****the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, ****and by his wounds we are healed. **Please tell me, Zer, who was pierced for your sins and mine?
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zerinus
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Then you have completely misunderstood what I had said. I never claimed that there were no fulfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT, or that prophecy was not important, or anything of that kind. All I said was that those fulfilled prophecies by themselves were not sufficient to convince someone of the truth of religion. If you donāt believe me, ask the Jews on this board how they interpret those prophecies, and will see.
zerinus
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Socrates4Jesus
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Zer:
I hope you will accept my apology for misunderstanding you. Please tell me why you think fulfilled prophecies are important.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Zer:
You ask some good questions! Iāll try to be brief in my answers. Itās clear there are only two possibilities:
*]Jesus did rise from the dead according to the predictions about Him in the Torah (i.e., the Old Testament).
*]Jesus did not die and rise from the dead, and the predictions in the Torah are not about Him.
This means that if (1) is true, you and i are deceived, and if (2) is true, those who do not believe as you and i do are either deceived, or unconvinced, or refuse to believe. This brings you and i back to the question i asked about 3 Nephi 1-2, which you have not explored with me yet: How can someone know when he is deceived?
However, i do not want to avoid answering your question, where you ask me what evidence i have that the New Testament is not a lie. The Socratic way to answer your question is to ask you a question related to the answer iād give:
Why would anyone die for what he knows is a lie?
Please answer this question and i will explain what i mean.
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zerinus
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Fulfilled prophecy is important because it is an affirmation to us that that which we had hoped for and believed has come to pass. For example Paul said to the Jews on two separate occasions:
Acts 23:
6 But . . . Paul . . . cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 28:
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
āHope of Israelā and āhope and resurrection of the deadā all refer to the coming of Christ, and His triumphant resurrection, signaling His triumph over deathāsomething that Israel (or those of them that believed) had been hoping for and looking forward to with anxious expectation.
zerinus
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zerinus
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You have ignored a third option. The third option is the Jewish oneāthat He died as a malefactor, and that His resurrection was a fabrication.
I have answered all your question; you are just not very good at recognizing my answers. The answer to that question is the same that I gave before: the only way that someone can avoid being deceived is to acquire the Spirit of God; then he will know that he is not deceived. If he is already deceived, acquiring the Spirit of God will enable him to become undeceived. Therefore the only way that a deceived person can know that he is deceived is to acquire the Spirit of God, at which point he will no longer be deceived.
First of all, how do you know that He died? Moslems are firmly persuaded that He did not die at all! How are you going to prove to them that He did? Secondly, just because someone has died for something, that does not mean that they have died for the truth. There are many people who have died and continue to die for a lie. Al-Qaeda are killing themselves everyday for a lie.
zerinus
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, but as Paul wrote, āWho hopes for what he already has?ā I believe you are speaking of prophecy that has yet to come true. Iām speaking of something different: Prophecy that has already come true:
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
(Acts 2:24)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
(Acts 3:15)
ā¦ then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
(Acts 4:10)
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the deadāwhom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.
(Acts 5:30)
The apostles always appealed to the evidence of the resurrection as the reason why people should put their trust in Jesus to save them. The resurrection of Jesus is the best documented event in all ancient history, Zer.
So, yes, i have the hope that i will be resurrected from the dead. I have this hope because i know, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, that Jesus Himself rose from the dead.
Iām not saying that someone cannot have a faith in Christ based on subjective experience without considering the objective evidence. Iām just saying that for some people, like myself, the path to trusting Jesus began with looking at the external proof and the internal witness came after i believed by reason of the evidence i found.
Do you see how my own experience is different from your own, but is a valid way to draw near to God and learn to trust Him?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Iām guilty as charged! Please forgive me for missing your reply. The question iād ask in response is this: You or i might believe we have acquired the Spirit of God, but how do we know we are not deceived about this?
Iām asking not to try to trip you up in some way but to think the matter through with you, for iām not sure i know the answer myself. My hope is that two heads (or perhaps three, if we can rely on the Spirit of God to assist us) will be better than one.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Iām not asking about those who blow themselves up thinking that this will bring them straight to Paradise. Iām not asking about believing a lie to be the truth. Iām asking about those who know that what they are telling people is a lie.
I believe you and i will have the answers to your questions if you first answer mine: Please tell me, my friend Zer, would anyone in his right mind die for what he knows is a lie?
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