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why_me
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What does this mean?well there you have it…
why me tells you you can’t believe anyone…so the BoM is true.
I have no idea about your meaning in this sentence.
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I have no idea about your meaning in this sentence.
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why_me
Guest
Everything is irrelevant in this postmodern secular world. For such a philosophy the relevance is only found in today. And for the secular postmodernist the catholic church is irrelevant unless of course it takes regressive stances on abortion, gay rights and other idenity causes.
Never get too comfortable with feeling relevant. You may find that actually most people in this world just may think that the catholic church is irrelevant too.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
who you preaching to whyme? I spent decades as an atheist. my relativism was fine tuned.Everything is irrelevant in this postmodern secular world. For such a philosophy the relevance is only found in today. And for the secular postmodernist the catholic church is irrelevant unless of course it takes regressive stances on abortion, gay rights and other idenity causes.
Never get too comfortable with feeling relevant. You may find that actually most people in this world just may think that the catholic church is irrelevant too.
when i decided to “find God”, that relativism was still in tact. But whyme, the more I learn about Christ and His teaching, the more I am not a relativist.
So yeah, I agree with you. Religion is becoming more irrelevant for more and more people. Personally, I’m headed the other direction.
But that wasn’t my point. This is called a red herring.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
And yours a brilliant mix of logical fallacies.
This is why people tell mormons that you don’t answer the question.
Learn how to present an argument, or stop wasting our time.
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holdencaulfield
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why_me
Guest
You made a statement: Mormonism is irrelevant. I tried to point out that for many so called catholics and other people not catholics, catholicism is also irrelevant. What we should be doing is making faith relevant and not beating each other help with judgemental posts.
Relevancy is in the eye of the beholder.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thank you. This will help me better apprehend, and perhaps even comprehend, from where you are coming. I should amend the statement of the premises you hold thus:
(A2) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who experiences the Holy Ghost.(B2) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who knows the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, knows that he knows the truth, and is not deceived.(D2) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who can only know that the writers of the NT are credible witnesses by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.(E2) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who also believes that there are prophecies in the Old Testament about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament, and that these predictions are important to him and even strengthen his faith in Jesus. The knowledge of the reality of both can only come to one by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.I believe, then, that i have something i can use to increase my knowledge of the truth. I appreciate this. Now, i hope you will please help me think this through, my friend Zer (i hope it is OK to call you this and that you know it is OK to call me Soc).
One thing seems certain: If (A2), (B2), (D2) and (E2) are true, then the opposite of these will certainly be false. These premises, then, are untrue (or lies, or deceptions, if you will):
(A3) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who does not experience the Holy Ghost.(B3) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who knows the truth by some means other than the power of the Holy Ghost, knows that he knows the truth, and is not deceived.(D3) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who can know that the writers of the NT are credible witnesses by some means other than the testimony of the Holy Ghost.(E3) A person who has actual, real and genuine faith in Jesus is one who also believes that there are prophecies in the Old Testament about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that were fulfilled in the New Testament, and that these predictions are important to him and even strengthen his faith in Jesus. The knowledge of the reality of both can come to one by some means other than the testimony of the Holy Ghost.Do you agree, Zer, that since (A2), (B2), (D2) and (E2) are always true, then (A3), (B3), (D3) and (E3) must always be false? This appears to me to be the truth that is gleaned from what you are saying to me. Does this sound reasonable to you, Zer?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, Holden, but the question is how do you know gravity exists?
Perhaps explaining how you know this truth will help Zer and myself understand how we might know other truths, such as the truths about the Book of Mormon or the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Then it would be good for me to learn all i can from you, my friend Zer, for if what i believe is a lie, then i might become better off for having met you.
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ibkc
Guest
Catholicism and the Catholic Church are inextricably entwined with the social and political history of much of the world for the past 2,000 years or so. Catholicism has had an effect on everyone living right now, either directly or indirectly. We are who we are now largely because of the efforts of the Catholic Church. To say that Catholicism is irrelevant is to state a position of ignorance, to put it bluntly.
The same cannot be said of Mormonism.
Great - so when are you going to start?
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why_me
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I have started already but perhaps not enough on this forum. Most of my posts counter the anitmormonism on this section of the forum. My message: start from commonality and not difference.
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why_me
Guest
Not really. To say that catholicm is irrelevant to many cradle catholics is very relevant since that it is true. It is also true that catholicm has been around for a very long time. And yes, it has done good work in this world of ours. No, problem from me on that one. But as the pope knows all too well, secularism is very popular in Europe. The battle is not with mormons and the lds church but with a philosophy that delegates life to its natural desires: eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die! type of approach.
And so, yes, in Scandinavia, catholicism is irrelevant as it is in many parts of germany, estonia, russia, greece and a host of other non-catholic european countries. And in many catholic countries such as Ireland, the church is becoming more irrelevant. Now that should be a concern for catholics. But it seems that we do have catholics on this forum that persistantly seem occupied with the lds church while ‘rome’ (not the vatican) burns.
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zerinus
Guest
Methinks, my good friend Soc, that you are too much obsessed with the Platonic dialog, and you are trying to win a “Socratic” argument against me! I regret to have to inform you, my dear friend Soc, that I am not interested in that at all! The only thing that I would “agree with” is that I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost, beyond the possibility of doubt or deception, that the Book of Mormon is true, is a volume of sacred scripture, and is the word of God; and that you may know the same if you would seek it in sincerity, and in the prayer of faith. Beyond that I have nothing further to say to you.
I sincerely hope that you have been better off for having met me. I think I have been better off for having met you.Then it would be good for me to learn all i can from you, my friend Zer, for if what i believe is a lie, then i might become better off for having met you.
I am not sure what you mean by “what I believe is a lie”. We think all religions have some element of truth in them, mixed with error. You can keep all the good principles and correct doctrines that you have already obtained, and come to us and get more.
The most important thing that you can “learn from me” is the abiding testimony I have that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and the Savior and Redeemer of the world; that He has restored His true Church on earth in the last days through Joseph Smith, a great prophet of the Lord; and that the Book of Mormon is true.
zerinus
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RebeccaJ
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My statements weren’t regarding what the world thinks of either mormonism or catholicism. It is the relationship between the two faiths. You chose to address something I never brought up.
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RebeccaJ
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Not really whyme. Mormonism is just as much a threat to Christianity as secularism. If not more so.
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ibkc
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You are completely missing my point. The number of active Catholics in the world right now does not change the fact that the Catholic Church was and remains one of the most important forces in the ongoing history of the world, especially in Europe. The Catholic Church is not “irrelevant.” To argue otherwise is to argue a position of ignorance, to repeat myself.
In contrast, the LDS church has exerted a small bit of influence on the development of the US, mainly because of the settlement of Utah. Outside of Utah, Mormons are considered to be weird and irrelevant and rightly so.
I saw some young missionary men walking along the side of a busy road near here this morning. It makes me so sad to see such faith and enthusiasm wasted on a false and irrelevant pseudo-religion.
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Rbt_Southwell
Guest
And what is the BASIC commonality, whyme?I have started already but perhaps not enough on this forum. Most of my posts counter the anitmormonism on this section of the forum. My message: start from commonality and not difference.
Christians hold that the Scripture known as ‘the Bible’ is the FINAL compilation of God speaking to His people (Abram on up) and God incarnated to end the line of Prophets.
Do Mormons believe this? No.
That’s the problem, whyme, mormons suffer from a “fundamental perceptual handicap.”
Robert
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Rbt_Southwell
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Rbt_Southwell
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Maybe a better question for our mormon trolls would be:
“Does anyone, other than a mormon, quote from the Book of Mormon?”
Robert
“Does anyone, other than a mormon, quote from the Book of Mormon?”
Robert
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Me thinks, dear Zer, that i am saddened to find that you have slandered me, and the one i admire, without just cause. For Socrates’ goal i life was never to win arguments but to win (or acquire) wisdom and truth about himself and the God he sought to know. It was Socrates who said:
To be curious about what is not my concern, while I am ignorant of my own self, would be ridiculous.
and
…the unexamined life is not worth living… .
and
…if we had found the truth ourselves, do you think that we would care much about the opinions of men?
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Wise, I may not call them; for that name is too great and belongs to God alone – “lovers of wisdom,” or philosophers, would be a more harmonious and befitting title.
For the first time, that i recall, you choose to call me your good friend, yet your actions show you to be more an enemy. The devil is the accuser of the brethren, who i wish to be, and you have accused me unjustly. Do you not think this sin grieves the Holy Ghost, as it certainly grieves me?
Regarding prayer, my friend Zer (for i would like to become your friend), i have been praying each day that the Holy Ghost would reveal the truth to me about the Book of Mormon through my dialog with you. Perhaps by your refusing to answer my questions i have the answer to my prayer?
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