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Walking_Home
Guest
Being that Christ himself spoke these words, do you not think that Christ knew at this time what Judas outcome was going to be.
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doomhammer
Guest
dhgray said:
“The “rehabilitation” of Judas could help the Pope’s drive to improve Christian-Jewish relations, which he has made a priority of his pontificate.
Some Bible experts say Judas was “a victim of a theological libel which helped to create anti Semitism” by forming an image of him as a “sinister villain” prepared to betray for money.
In many medieval plays and paintings Judas is portrayed with a hooked nose and exaggerated Semitic features. In Dante’s Inferno, Judas is relegated to the lowest pits of Hell, where he is devoured by a three-headed demon.”
gimme a break, man.
we do not need jewish propaganda here.
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VociMike
Guest
Yes, but nonetheless He may not have been speaking of the future but of the present. After all, we Catholics believe that God shows the greatest respect for our free will, and refuses to violate it. Speaking of Judas’ eternal damnation while there was still time for Judas to repent and be forgiven would go against this respect, IMHO.
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doomhammer
Guest
That is why APOSTASY is the worst sin: because blocks any opportunity to regret.
(Let this clear: Judas’ sin was APOSTASY, the worst mortal sin. Also HOMICIDE is a mortal sin (probably the second worst mortal sin), but at least here remains the chance of regret. It is not the case of Judas, the son of perdition, who did not seek Jesus’ forgiveness).
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doomhammer
Guest
apply your reasoning to all the words Jesus spoke and catholic faith collapses.
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TobyLue
Guest
This is my understanding regarding Judas. I asked my priest a while back regarding the fate of Judas as to why the Church does not declare Judas in hell just as the Church will declare many as Saints in Heaven. He said that the Church will never make that declaration, however, will let the bible say it.
Judas had a free will. God did not cause him to betray Jesus.
Code:
Judas could have been forgiven but my understanding is that he may have had remorse but he didn’t believe that Jesus could forgive him. In the priestly prayer of Christ in John 17 *While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled*.
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VociMike
Guest
When did I ever suggest that my reasoning applied to all the words Jesus spoke? I am talking about the fate of one man, who’s fate was not sealed at the time Jesus spoke the words He spoke, if we believe that Judas had free will until the point of his death.
I don’t know if Judas is in hell or not, and neither does any person on earth. So we’ll just have to wait and find out.
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jimmy
Guest
You need no more than one split second to accept the Truth. Judas certainly could have been given the chance to repent. Your list mizing sinners with saints is meaningless, all are sinners. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Ignatius, St. John, St. Peter, St. James, St. Andrew, and all the other saints were sinners. They recieved salvation, who is to say that Nero did not repent of his sins?
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Who is to say that those saints did not turn away from the truth at the last second?
No one, except the Church. It’s not very likely that they would have, but no one *really * knows what was going through their minds in their last seconds of earthly life. Likewise, it’s not very likely that Nero or Judas would have turned to God all of a sudden when they rejected Him for so long. It goes against their nature.
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doomhammer
Guest
I was only trying to point out your way of reasoning.
Judas’ fate was sealed since the time he became an apostate.
You are right: it is not a “person”, it was the Christ who knew where Judas, freely, ended:
John 17, 12: “When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
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gelsbern
Guest
I thought his was the sin against hope, i.e. despair.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello dhgray,
We know that the Church has great power in knowing who is in heaven and who is in hell. Both cannonization of saints and anathamatizing souls give us a vision from the Church as to who is in heaven and who is in hell.
Anathema is the Church using the “keys to the kingdom” to call upon Jesus to bind a person to sin in heaven which, if not absolved, damns a soul to hell. In Anathema the Church uses Judas, as well as Satan, as the example of the company damned souls will be with.
Anathema
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
We know that the Church has great power in knowing who is in heaven and who is in hell. Both cannonization of saints and anathamatizing souls give us a vision from the Church as to who is in heaven and who is in hell.
Anathema is the Church using the “keys to the kingdom” to call upon Jesus to bind a person to sin in heaven which, if not absolved, damns a soul to hell. In Anathema the Church uses Judas, as well as Satan, as the example of the company damned souls will be with.
Anathema
He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Steven Merten:
Just to let everyone know, that was from the Fourth Council of Toledo against those who were guilty of the crime of high treason.
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doomhammer
Guest
Proverbs 5, 22: “By his own iniquities the wicked man will be caught, in the meshes of his own sin he will be held fast”
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stella95
Guest
Shouldn’t we hope the best for Judas? Would it be blaphemous to acknowledge our own sins and say a few prayers for Judas now and then?
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JSmitty2005
Guest
No. It would be stupid since the Church has spoken. No. Once again, it would not be blasphemous, but it would be dumb.
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