Did Judas Iscariot have a choice?

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traillius

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Judas is described as having left " to go the way he was meant to go " meaning betray Jesus, and then in horror and grief commit suicide. So did Judas have a choice, or had God pre-ordained him to be the betrayer. Could God have come up with another way to have Jesus arrested?
 
traillius said:
Judas is described as having left " to go the way he was meant to go " meaning betray Jesus, and then in horror and grief commit suicide. So did Judas have a choice, or had God pre-ordained him to be the betrayer. Could God have come up with another way to have Jesus arrested?
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Judas had a choice and exercised his free will in choosing to betray Jesus.
 
traillius said:
Judas is described as having left " to go the way he was meant to go " meaning betray Jesus, and then in horror and grief commit suicide. So did Judas have a choice, or had God pre-ordained him to be the betrayer. Could God have come up with another way to have Jesus arrested?
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I don’t think so. From a purely technical standpoint yes God could have done something different… H’e God. But the way Judas did it (IMO anyway) doesn’t just set it up for Jesus to be crucified for us but also serves as a metaphor for all who betray God and the grief such betrayal can cause.

Just my $0.02
 
traillius said:
Judas is described as having left " to go the way he was meant to go " meaning betray Jesus, and then in horror and grief commit suicide. So did Judas have a choice, or had God pre-ordained him to be the betrayer. Could God have come up with another way to have Jesus arrested?
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God is all knowing, so while it was not pre-ordained, God just knows what people will do and knew Judas would do it.

Could God come up with another way? Sure, he is all powerful he can do whatever he sees fit.
 
Judas had a choice and God knew which choice Judas would make from before the very beginning of time.
 
Rascalking said:
I don’t understand. So he didn’t really have a choice if God knew what he was going to do anyway?
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That is not correct.

Lets try an example:

If I knew you were going to go eat at McDonalds before you actually went and eat there, would that mean you didn’t actually choose to eat there?

You would have still been the one making the decision, my knowing in advance what decision you were going to make does not change the fact that you are the one making the decision.

Likewise with Judas, he still made the decision himself, he still choose to do what he did, God knowing what Judas would do and letting him do so does not change that.
 
There was no pre-ordination. Judas acted of his own free will.
When he thought about what he had done, he dispaired of being
forgiven by an all merciful God, which was the greater sin.
 
mdrummer5 said:
I don’t think so. From a purely technical standpoint yes God could have done something different… H’e God. But the way Judas did it (IMO anyway) doesn’t just set it up for Jesus to be crucified for us but also serves as a metaphor for all who betray God and the grief such betrayal can cause.

Just my $0.02
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Does not this line of reasoning also tend to state that Mary also had no choice but to bear Jesus? Would not this state of being have then rendered her statements to Gabriel essentially meaningless? Is it not true that every being with a rational soul also possess free will, which is guided by the conscience contained within that soul? Is not the state of possessing free will one of risk?

I think perhaps the problem in these instances is that God had absolute foreknowledge and transmitted that to man - clouding for us the pure and freely made nature of each decision. Both Judas and Mary made a conscious choice, explicitly or implicitly accepting or disregarding the personal and eternal consequences of their decision. Was either of them a simple automaton, pre-programmed to act as a celestially controlled marionette?

There is no evidence that God, the Giver of free will, has ever violated His gift to mankind.
 
interesting question:It appears and is taught by the Church that Judas was a thief and deceiver from the start.Christ chose him but not for that reason but just like he chose any of hHis apostles.He never loved Jesus like the other apostles.Judas didn’t want Jesus to be the kind of king that He was but preferred an earthly king.Satan entered but Judas was a comfortable place for him.He was already in bad sin.He had a choice.But like any of us he had to deny himsefl or continue in his selfish ways.I heard Fr.Groeschel say that very few believe he did it for the money since it was just about a months pay.I believe he said it was because Jesus didn’t act like he wanted Him to act.He wanted Jesus to be something different.maybe Judas didn’t care about some heavenly kingdom but was concerned with this life.This could have been the reason in my understanding.
 
Brendan_McCabe said:
That is not correct.

Lets try an example:

If I knew you were going to go eat at McDonalds before you actually went and eat there, would that mean you didn’t actually choose to eat there?

You would have still been the one making the decision, my knowing in advance what decision you were going to make does not change the fact that you are the one making the decision.

Likewise with Judas, He still made the decision himself, he still choose to do what he did, God knowing what Judas would do and letting him do so does not change that.
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I never said it WAS correct. I said in opening that I didn’t understand.

It’s a bit clearer now, I guess.
 
Rascalking said:
I never said it WAS correct. I said in opening that I didn’t understand.

It’s a bit clearer now, I guess.
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I didn’t say you thought you were correct my friend, I was merely pointing out that what you said was not so that you would know that.
 
valentino said:
interesting question:

It appears and is taught by the Church that Judas was a thief and deceiver from the start.

He never loved Jesus like the other apostles.

Judas didn’t want Jesus to be the kind of king that He was but preferred an earthly king.

Satan entered but Judas was a comfortable place for him.

He was already in bad sin.

He had a choice. But like any of us he had to deny himself or continue in his selfish ways.

I heard Fr.Groeschel say that very few believe he did it for the money since it was just about a months pay.I believe he said it was because Jesus didn’t act like he wanted Him to act.He wanted Jesus to be something different.maybe Judas didn’t care about some heavenly kingdom but was concerned with this life.This could have been the reason in my understanding.
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Thank you for your post - Judas was, with other words, politically motivated. Due to his worldly expectation of the Kingdom of God, Satan found no resistance to deceive him.

IMO Judas had a choice and chose to prefer a radical political solution in his short sightedness and failure to grasp the teachings of our Lord.
 
Matthew 18: 7 - Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come.

Betrayal was inevitable, but Judas chose to be the betrayer.
 
Brendan_McCabe said:
That is not correct.

Lets try an example:

If I **knew **you were going to go eat at McDonalds before you actually went and eat there, would that mean you didn’t actually choose to eat there?

You would have still been the one making the decision, my knowing in advance what decision you were going to make does not change the fact that you are the one making the decision.

Likewise with Judas, he still made the decision himself, he still choose to do what he did, God knowing what Judas would do and letting him do so does not change that.
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How is “knew” being used here?
Is it like an educated guess built of background knowledge? Is it a probability analysis or just the statement of a fact that is yet to be realized?
 
Birdpreacher said:
How is “knew” being used here?
Is it like an educated guess built of background knowledge? Is it a probability analysis or just the statement of a fact that is yet to be realized?
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The trouble is that no human is omnipotent, so he can’t “know your choice” before you are making it as a human. But for God, He isn’t bound by time - He was, is, and always will be. I can only think to compare it to he Oracle in the Matrix trilogy. She isn’t a fortune teller, and she doesn’t reveal one’s destiny, but she knows what choices a person will make and advises them accordingly.

I guess I can try to describe it like this. You are in a laboratory, and you are certain that a hungry rat will follow a certain path through the maze because at that fork, he can smell cheese in one direction but not the other. You see what paths lie ahead, and you know the creature, so you know how it will act. But the rat doesn’t know until it reaches that point, and then it makes a decision. But the rat would decide based on its own accord - it doesn’t matter that someone else ‘knows’ what they will do.

In the same sense, God knows all of our destinies - He knows where we will fall, where He will give us grace, and whether we achieve salvation or condemn ourselves to Hell. But the choice is still yours - you still have those actions to make which determine your fate.
 
Birdpreacher said:
How is “knew” being used here?
Is it like an educated guess built of background knowledge? Is it a probability analysis or just the statement of a fact that is yet to be realized?
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It does not matter regarding the point I am trying to make, foreknowledge does not take away a persons freedom to choose their own actions.
 
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