Did LDS Church contribute to restoration of Salt Lake Cathedral?

[BDawg]

Funny you should choose to mention that. You know that there are seventeen God-given commands mentioned in Exodus 1-17 (The Ten Commandments), but we know that there were only ten commandments, and since “Thou shalt not bow down” refers to a manmade image, and we know that since some manmade images were actually on the Temple or even commanded by God, the “Thou shalt not bow down” was an explanation of a commandment–not a commandment in itself. So we look for that Commandment it explains. Why it’s “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 3). I guess that brings us to how many gods Mormons claim there are (talk about pagan belief)–not anything about the chosen vehicle for our salvation (the cross).

Hi AMDGtoo,

That’s fine. I was just trying to give what I see as a bluntly honest answer to the question of why Mormons don’t use the Cross as a symbol. I understand that Catholics have various rationales for doing what they do.

 

[juliamajor]

Mormons give all kinds of reasons for not using the Cross as a visual symbol. Some of them were just made up by someone trying to think of a reason for the practice, while others have been given by Church leaders. Gordon Hinckley once said that we don’t use the Cross because we prefer to dwell on Jesus’ triumph over death, rather than his death, in our symbology, for instance.

But the problem isn’t that we don’t acknowledge a central role to Christ’s crucifixion. “And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross” (D&C 138:35).

In any case, I think many of these explanations, including Hinckley’s, are fine, but they sort of politely dodge what I see as the core issue. Lots of Christians have not just used the Cross as a symbol, but have venerated it in a way that smacks of idolatry to us. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” (Exodus 20:4-5). The Israelites didn’t interpret this to mean that they couldn’t use ANY statues or symbols, and that sort of thing. They had some in the Temple. But they didn’t bow down to those images. Contrast that with your typical Catholic entering a church and genuflecting to the Crucifix.

I know, I know–Catholics don’t see this as “worshiping” an image. I’m glad of that. But the commandment clearly says not to “bow down” to any likeness of anything. I understand that you guys don’t buy that argument, but I’m just trying to explain why I don’t think we use the Cross.

That is, you ruined if for us. JWs like to point out lots of Christian symbols (like Christmas trees and Easter bunnies) that are Christianized pagan symbols, but Mormons are usually fine with all that. Christmas would suck without Santa and all the rest, if you ask most of us. But I think we react differently to “paganized Christian symbols” like the Cross. So many hundreds of millions of people are used to genuflecting to Crucifixes, that it’s probably best to just tell them to lose the Crucifixes if they join us. Otherwise, I think there would be crosses all over Mormon buildings.

Sorry- you’re wrong- we genuflect to the "True Presence " in the Tabernacle. If the “True Presence” isn’t there we don’t have to kneel.We venerate the cross on Good Friday- and it’s called “good Friday- because Jesus’ crucifixion is our salvation.Being the vehicle of our salvation it deserves to be noticed. You cannot get to Easter without Good Friday…I recommend a book"Crucifixion” by Martin Hengel. In it Mr. Hengel brings out the historical point that the cross and Jesus’ Crucifixion were not a popular or appetizing to the pagan crowds. It basically was anathema to them. To the Romans it was such a disgrace , that even though it was rather common, a lot of details aren’t known because of the horror it was held in…It was a subject not brought up in polite Roman .If anything, initially, the cross was a detriment to conversion of Romans and Jews, because of it’s use among the worst of criminals. a Curse was supposed to those who died a tree.So why did Paul not shirk from talking about it ? Or it being used in Christian iconography?Because it was important to realize that each Christian, in this time period would be suffering for his faith and enduring the scourging and whips of his society.Now it symbolizes that we are not afraid of the world the flesh or the devil and we still believe despite what those around us may say(those who wear it with true belief , that is).And it’s also an image that should be in every Christians mind that we all have walk up Golgatha before we can rise to glory. And , yes, if Jesus did suffer on another instrument of death before He rose- i would wear it around my neck but it had to be a cross-.Peace

 

[majick275]

Hi AMDGtoo,

That’s fine. I was just trying to give what I see as a bluntly honest answer to the question of why Mormons don’t use the Cross as a symbol. I understand that Catholics have various rationales for doing what they do.

I would offer up moses brass serpent as preparatory similitude of the cross as a symbol. I think the Lord works with symbols a lot to help us understand. much of the bible is filled with symbols. i also am drawn to Paul’s words in 1 corinthians 1:18 when discussing this subject.

 

[BDawg]

I would offer up moses brass serpent as preparatory similitude of the cross as a symbol. I think the Lord works with symbols a lot to help us understand. much of the bible is filled with symbols. i also am drawn to Paul’s words in 1 corinthians 1:18 when discussing this subject.

I agree with everything you say here, but don’t see any “bowing down” going on.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons give all kinds of reasons for not using the Cross as a visual symbol. Some of them were just made up by someone trying to think of a reason for the practice, while others have been given by Church leaders. Gordon Hinckley once said that we don’t use the Cross because we prefer to dwell on Jesus’ triumph over death, rather than his death, in our symbology, for instance.

What symbology is that? If anything, Mormonism is woefully bereft of symbology.

In any case, I think many of these explanations, including Hinckley’s, are fine, but they sort of politely dodge what I see as the core issue. Lots of Christians have not just used the Cross as a symbol, but have venerated it in a way that smacks of idolatry to us. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” (Exodus 20:4-5). The Israelites didn’t interpret this to mean that they couldn’t use ANY statues or symbols, and that sort of thing. They had some in the Temple. But they didn’t bow down to those images. Contrast that with your typical Catholic entering a church and genuflecting to the Crucifix.

Hi, we genuflect to Christ, who is present in every Church (except during Holy Week).

 

[majick275]

I agree with everything you say here, but don’t see any “bowing down” going on.

hmmm… i don’t ever recall bowing down to a cross. only genuflecting at the altar when christ was present in the Eucharist. i can see opportunity for confusion since a crucifix is always present.

 

[BDawg]

hmmm… i don’t ever recall bowing down to a cross. only genuflecting at the altar when christ was present in the Eucharist. i can see opportunity for confusion since a crucifix is always present.

Hi Majick,

So, there’s no praying in front of a Crucifix, and the like? I know some Catholics do this, but I am open to the idea that they aren’t strictly supposed to . There are some pretty strange local variations in Catholicism (e.g., in Latin America and the Phillippines) that get pretty weird. Right now I’m thinking of those guys in the Phillippines that actually get crucified every year, even though the Vatican always denounces the practice.

Like I said, I have no a priori problem with using the Cross as a symbol, but whatever the official interpretation of it is, I think it is true that “bowing down” to Crucifixes and Crosses is pretty rampant among Christian individuals, and has been been for centuries. So maybe it’s necessary for us to forego its use to cure converts of that tendency.

That said, I have to say that I like the Cross as a symbol, and it makes me a little sad that we don’t use it.

 

[BDawg]

What symbology is that? If anything, Mormonism is woefully bereft of symbology.

We use sunstones, moonstones, starstones, earthstones, statues and pictures of Christ, Angel Moroni statues, beehives, symbolic rituals, spires, the circle and square in temple architecture, ritual vestments and undergarments, wedding rings, altars, 8-pointed stars, infinitely reflecting mirrors, and so on.

Oh, and some women’s giant hairdos symbolize the ascent into the heavens…or a future global shortage of Aquanet…one or the other.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We use sunstones, moonstones, starstones, earthstones, statues and pictures of Christ, Angel Moroni statues, beehives, symbolic rituals, spires, the circle and square in temple architecture, ritual vestments and undergarments, wedding rings, altars, 8-pointed stars, infinitely reflecting mirrors, and so on.

ummm, you realize that many of those are actual objects of worship by pagans, right?

Oh, and some women’s giant hairdos symbolize the ascent into the heavens…or a future global shortage of Aquanet…one or the other.

rurlds2?

 

[BDawg]

ummm, you realize that many of those are actual objects of worship by pagans, right?

Yep, and so are many Catholic symbols. Like I said, we don’t really mind “Christianized pagan symbols” so much as “paganized Christian symbols.” There is nothing wrong with using a symbol, as long as it doesn’t presently carry strongly negative connotations. For instance, the swastika is a standard Hindu symbol, but if I were one of them, I would probably stop using it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“paganized Christian symbols.”

Honestly bdawg, your view is so skewed and entrenched in invincible ignorance that I am finding it hard to continue conversing with you.

And, I am sickened by the article just posted about the girl killed by her father for converting to Christianity, so I think I’m going to have to take a break.

 

[majick275]

Hi Majick,

So, there’s no praying in front of a Crucifix, and the like? I know some Catholics do this, but I am open to the idea that they aren’t strictly supposed to . There are some pretty strange local variations in Catholicism (e.g., in Latin America and the Phillippines) that get pretty weird. Right now I’m thinking of those guys in the Phillippines that actually get crucified every year, even though the Vatican always denounces the practice.

Like I said, I have no a priori problem with using the Cross as a symbol, but whatever the official interpretation of it is, I think it is true that “bowing down” to Crucifixes and Crosses is pretty rampant among Christian individuals, and has been been for centuries. So maybe it’s necessary for us to forego its use to cure converts of that tendency.

That said, I have to say that I like the Cross as a symbol, and it makes me a little sad that we don’t use it.

geez i hate to split hairs but i have to here. i see what you are talking about now and yes catholics frequently kneel in prayer and often do so at altars and/or shrines where sacramentals and/or icons/statues/etc. of saints are present. i don’t see that as problematic as only God is worshipped. i think there are definitely some common abuses there but official dogma is that we only worship God and we don’t attach superstitious values to material objects. I think one could make some parallels with the LDs Temple ceremony but in the end i think it’s all perception. you might see people de facto worshipping a graven image of a human (joseph, mary, etc.) whereas a Catholic would see devotion to a saint using sacramentals for focus all as part of worshiping God.

i would compare statues and icons of saints as reminders of the good examples set by our most noteworthy predecessors of how to live a good Christian life with paintings and pictures in mormon churches and homes of JS, the first presidency, moroni, nephi, etc. the difference would be that even though mormons believe those people are actively working to serve the lord in the spirit world, catholics believe it’s perfectly acceptable to speak to these people and ask for their prayers just as catholics and mormons both do with living people.