Did Luther mean to start Protestantism?

[7_Sorrows]

i am not a scholar of church history, but i feel that Luther began by honestly, yet perhaps naively, wanting to stop the corruption he saw in the Catholic Church. i doubt if he was the only one at the time who was disturbed by the corruption of the Church, but he took it upon himself to post his grievances on the church door.
as another poster stated, someone else eventually would have come along.
i believe in the 1400’s with John Hus, grievances were beginning to form.
what happened is history now. it would have happened sooner or later. Luther was a main player, but other people helped move protestantism along - including kings.

 

[Bill_Martin]

I agree with the consensus here. I think he genuinely wanted the fix the legitimate problems within the Church, and then was left with little choice when he was pushed out. I certainly don’t think he would be happy with how there are so many different branches of Christianity now with all of them teaching all kinds of different things.

 

[austenbosten]

I agree with the consensus here. I think he genuinely wanted the fix the legitimate problems within the Church, and then was left with little choice when he was pushed out. I certainly don’t think he would be happy with how there are so many different branches of Christianity now with all of them teaching all kinds of different things.

He strongly disliked his contemporaries who took a radical view.

It is an unsufferable blasphemy to reject the public ministry or to say that people can become holy without sermons and Church. This involves a destruction of the Church and rebellion against ecclesiastical order; such upheavals must be warded off and punished like all other revolts

 

[bzkoss236]

The reformation was not the result of a single individual or group, but rather the translation of the Scriptures in languages that people of God could read and then understand by the power of the gospel via the work of the Holy Spirit.

Of course with that (giving people the ability to read the word on their own) also came the distortion and intentional misuse for sordid gain spoken about and written by the apostle Paul.

Luther came across the writings of John Huss and was converted and began preaching the word of God. He was eventually excommunicated, but he did not appear to be trying to start a movement, but was far more interested in preaching the word as evidenced by his vast amount of study, preparation and preaching. The pastoral epistles command such things to be done. Calvin was the same and Huss and the Wesley brothers and a host of others.

The literacy was only part of it. The other part of the reformation was in regards to corruption (mainly addressing the selling of indulgences) and doctrine that individuals didn’t agree with, which is more of a reason for a split than the simple idea to have a bible in the local language.

Protestant Reformation - Wikipedia

 

[Stilldreamn]

My earlier remark was vague and open to misinterpretation (concerning shepards and sheep) but what I wanted to convey was a sense of the grassroots sort of ecumenism I see between Catholics and Lutherans in my own community. I hesitated because I did not want to offend anyone, but in addition to co-operating in external mission work locally, we have shared non-Eucharist services from time to time.

I know we have differences, and they are the subject of learned debate at the highest levels of our respective faiths, but here on the ground we are much closer than they think. We pray for each other, care for the community, and rejoice in the love of Christ.

And I think our Pastor has shared a few brews with the Fathers, too

 

[austenbosten]

My earlier remark was vague and open to misinterpretation (concerning shepards and sheep) but what I wanted to convey was a sense of the grassroots sort of ecumenism I see between Catholics and Lutherans in my own community. I hesitated because I did not want to offend anyone, but in addition to co-operating in external mission work locally, we have shared non-Eucharist services from time to time.

I know we have differences, and they are the subject of learned debate at the highest levels of our respective faiths, but here on the ground we are much closer than they think. We pray for each other, care for the community, and rejoice in the love of Christ.

And I think our Pastor has shared a few brews with the Fathers, too

That’s wonderful that the bonds among Christians is growing, it’s always a step closer to a full union in one Church.

 

[benjohnson]

I wanted to convey was a sense of the grassroots sort of ecumenism I see between Catholics and Lutherans in my own community.

I see that too in my own home - the godparents of my third child are Catholic and are amazing. I would not be upset if my son became Catholic, but he won’t - he’s as stuborn as me.

I also get to return the favor now and then - some of us Lutherans will be at the mostly Catholic pro-Freedom rally this October: standupforreligiousfreedom.com/locations/

I’m defiantly Lutheran, and I defiantly think we Lutherans have a better take on some aspect of worship, but I also really enjoy what my Catholic friends bring to Christ.

 

[Izdaari]

Did Luther defy the pope’s orders and get excommunicated and intentionally start protestantism? Like did he really want to break off from the Church? I was thinking about this because my aunt mentioned that Luther even asked for a priest when he was on his deathbed for Last Rites, can anyone confirm this? Thanks

I really don’t think he intended to start the whole Protestant thing. He wanted to reform the Catholic Church (which, IMO, at the time was much in need of it). But they were having none of it, and kicked him out, which forced his hand.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I’m defiantly Lutheran, and I defiantly think we Lutherans have a better take on some aspect of worship, but I also really enjoy what my Catholic friends bring to Christ.

Do you actually mean defiantly or do you mean definitely?

 

[Police42]

Let’s be honest, it wasn’t like there was not already a split with the Schism of 1054. To this day there is still Roman and Eastern Catholics and they are not fully in unison. Condemning Luther as a man who lost his faith in Christ and comparing him to Lucifer is pretty damning considering some of the Popes during his time lived lives of sin.

As for his rebellion Luther in no way condoned nor appreciated the attacks on the Church that contemporary Protestants engaged against Catholics. We should follow Pope Benedict’s actions and seek and pray for unison with the Lutherans, not carry out belligerent attacks seeking to further drive a wedge between Lutherans and Catholics.

Agree - and furthermore Christ has and will continue to build His church which has yet to be revealed. There is not one specific church that is visible that can make any claim to be the only true and visible church unless of course one believes the Bible and thus the Holy Spirit are wrong according the the epistle to the Romans written by Paul and authored by God.

I, personally, would not join any church who would claim to be the only true and visible church. Only God knows who are his own and His own hear his voice and follow Him. This true church comes from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Of course the real question for everyone is not are all Catholics Muslims or Mormons et al are “SAVED”, but rather are you a Christian? That is the most important question to ask oneself and have a definitive and hopefully a good and biblical reason for affirming oneself as such as opposed to being self deceived and hearing the Lord say “depart from Me; I never knew you”. That would be the most dreadful words a person could ever hear. *** May we all hear “well done good and faithful servant” - Amen anyone?***

 

[KathleenGee]

When we are baptized, we are incorporated into the Body of Christ, and entire households were baptized by the Apostles, including infants who did not have the faculties of reason. But they all became Christian.

However, Christianity is a life long walk of conversion, of becoming more united and one with Christ, where we die to ourselves daily and instead draw on His strength and life to bring His Spirit to the world.

We fall back, we go forward. It is all about perseverance…and only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

Christ did indeed establish one concrete, tangible Church based on His 12 witnesses the Apostles, and through their successors. They also had among their successors in each generation, teachers/theologians. To integrate the Word of God in all the countless cultures, to ensure that the true message of Christ was passed on, required those totally dedicated to Christ and His Church in the Holy Spirit.

Our faith, practice of worship, morality, prayer, creed, administration is the same now as it was at the beginnings of the Church that you find in the Epistles. It took many people and much prayer and consensus to discern which books of Scripture were meant for public revelation that would speak to the universal man in all times and places. This was essentially completed with the exception of the Book of Hebrews by around 100 AD.

That was made possible by the Church which came to life through the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the Epistles set down the criteria to discern true Gospel and true Church.
Persecution of Christianity ended at the Edict of Milan signed by Constantine who made it legal, and made Sunday a day of rest. In this time there came about serious questions about the nature of Christ.

The Council of Nicea expanded more on the Apostles Creed stating that Christ is of the same substance as the Father, True God and True Man.

The Council of Trent, who gave much thought and reflection to the Protestant removal of certain books of the Bible, reaffirmed its choice of which books going back to 100 AD.

Part of the problem people have is individualism and not being accountable to higher authority. A priest told me he thinks it is very hard for people today to accept human authority representing Christ and His will when it comes to being Catholic.

 

[KathleenGee]

Luther was dealing with both scriptural and theological issues before the Reformation. But Catholic theologians flawed in not debating with him.

He also was not in tune with prior spiritual and theological insights of those hundreds of years before him during the era when Francis and others began the mendicant orders in rebuilding the Church, who greatly attest to the love of God for us, and how it is grace in faith we are saved.

Perhaps some of it may have been due to his own personality issues.

But yes, he was indeed likewise facing the abuse of indulgences, and the rest was mixed up in political powers of different monarchies and populations wanting their own autonomy and jurisdiction…

The Protestant Reformation was the result of a ‘Perfect Storm’ of many issues.

 

[benjohnson]

Do you actually mean defiantly or do you mean definitely?

Ha! You caught me! Freudian slip!!!

 

[Porknpie]

Agree - and furthermore Christ has and will continue to build His church which has yet to be revealed.** There is not one specific church** that is visible that can make any claim to be the only true and visible church unless of course one believes the Bible and thus the Holy Spirit are wrong according the the epistle to the Romans written by Paul and authored by God.

Police 42 -

What church do you attend or do you attend a church? Your comments are neither biblical nor historical. Ignoring among other scripture (let alone tradition):

Matthew 16:18? “Peter your are rock and upon this rock I will build my church.” (Jesus established one church. It has been revealed)

Matthew 5:14? 14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. 16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. (the city on the mountain is his Catholic church).

1 Corinthians 1:10? "I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. (St. Paul says do not be divided)

From where in scripture do you get your thoughts?

 

[WingsOfEagles]

Ha! You caught me! Freudian slip!!!

Lol. I figured. The typo had me laughing so hard given the topic.

 

[austenbosten]

Agree - and furthermore Christ has and will continue to build His church which has yet to be revealed. There is not one specific church that is visible that can make any claim to be the only true and visible church unless of course one believes the Bible and thus the Holy Spirit are wrong according the the epistle to the Romans written by Paul and authored by God.

I, personally, would not join any church who would claim to be the only true and visible church. Only God knows who are his own and His own hear his voice and follow Him. This true church comes from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Of course the real question for everyone is not are all Catholics Muslims or Mormons et al are “SAVED”, but rather are you a Christian? That is the most important question to ask oneself and have a definitive and hopefully a good and biblical reason for affirming oneself as such as opposed to being self deceived and hearing the Lord say “depart from Me; I never knew you”. That would be the most dreadful words a person could ever hear. *** May we all hear “well done good and faithful servant” - Amen anyone?***

Well I don’t agree with that, I was merely referring to the strong rhetoric used. Christians should strive to unite into One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

The problem is that position is wide open and accountable to no one…being saved, being Christian.

That is why the Lord established a Church with chosen and called consecrated ministers, i spirit and truth, and a collective body that together affirms and discerns that movement whether it be of the Holy Spirit affirming the truth of Jesus Christ through His Oral tradition…or not.

We are all inclined to being deceived mostly by our own perceptions, psychology, hang up’s, and wounded spirits. We are in continual need of some form of inner healing. We do not put trust in man or in our own way of looking at things.

Being Church is being with other people and having proper authority.

 

[delco55]

There is an excellent book to read if you are interested in the arch-heretic Martin Luther. It is available on Amazon for $29.99 and it is titled, ‘Luther and Lutherdom.’ The book is 465 pages on the life and refutation of Martin Luther. There are many today who try and paint a rosy picture of the wretched, poor, sick, demented and twisted man that was Luther. As a confirmed liar, sophist, and a man who would use any means necessary to discredit the Catholic Church, there is little to admire. He put forth great efforts to pull men and women away from the religious life because quite simply, he could not hack it. He refused the grace that was offered to him in the religious life, so he wanted others to join in his cowardice and failure to live up to promises they made to God as well. In fact, he even instructed those making vows to lie about committing their lives to chastity, telling them that the vows were only conditional. The author of the book also exposes his lies and the many times he contradicted himself in various accusations he made against the Catholic Church. Whenever one argument would not hold up, he simply changed it. Luther also made erroneous claims against the great Angelic Doctor Saint Thomas Aquinas. The author easily refutes Luther’s accusations. What I find interesting is that much of what Luther rebelled against was related to his sexual immorality. His rebelliousness was built largely upon his sinful inclinations, which he over and over again tried to justify with his crippled theology.

• The above is a quote from the Catholic Champion Blog.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, MHT,

Like many of the posts, I do not think Luther set out to found his own church. Let me share my personal opinion.

Luther’s revolt was more then a religious event - it was a truly political and economic history making event.

As I see it, Luther started out with a genuine spirit of reformation mixed with industrial strength pride. His ability to effecively communicate reform to the guys who should have reformed was compromised by multiple variables. Now, to this uneasy situation, add local princes who were quite tired of seeing German gold shipped south to fund the building programs at the Vatican - and if there was a priest who was raising a theological issue - they could certainly provide him with aid and support - along with a place to hide as needed.

Things just continued to spin out of control until like the line from Macbeth, " “I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o’er.” So, while there was no turning back for Luther, he must have been truly mortified to see the unlettered peasents of the time actually doing what he claimed they and everyone else could do - give their personal interpretation of the Bible and claim it was a valid as Luther’s - even when Luther disagreed with it.

And, then there were those who so violently disagreed with Luther’s doctrines - that they founded their own church(es). And, the beginnings of what would develop into an on-going bastardazation was visible to Luther before he died.

So, while his intentions may have been otherwise, he truly committed to splitting from the Church founded by Christ fundamentally because of his lack of Faith. This lack was seen when he could not believe Christ would allow such public and political men to lead the Church.

God bless

Did Luther defy the pope’s orders and get excommunicated and intentionally start protestantism? Like did he really want to break off from the Church? I was thinking about this because my aunt mentioned that Luther even asked for a priest when he was on his deathbed for Last Rites, can anyone confirm this? Thanks

 

[IanGE]

It is no coincidence that Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door just seven months after the 5th Lateran council ended in 1517. Was that council the real trigger for the subsequent schism?