Did Mahatma Gandhi going to heaven?

[GaryTaylor]

I think you need to start thinking about what your saying now. Because now your really on some abstract Christology.

It doesn’t matter, Ghandi “DID” have knowledge of Jesus Christ and Scripture. Did he decide to become a Christain anywhere in History that your aware of? Death bed confession to God? It would be no different that you or I reading the Bible and saying “Oh that Jesus Christ is a cool dude” but I’m going with this thinking over here because Mohammad is cool also? He moved a mountain. Thats called “denial”.

You want to “assume” there is a grey area here, and theres not. You either believe this or you don’t. Its not a half truth.

There is no stated fact of Ghandi accepting Jesus Christ as Savior which is where you would seem to want to drift with this now, into the grey area. Very much to the contrary as a matter of fact. You have a link where Ghandi accepts Jesus Christ as His savior?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now we are repeating, if you do not accept Christ as savior you are automatically rejecting him. You don’t want to accept this but its the truth.

Ghandi did no accept Christ as Savior, show me the link if you believe he did?

 

[TMC]

Here it is again. By this definition of ‘yours’ which I assure you its yours. Than all who are good people are bound for Heaven regardless of there disbelief in Jesus Christ. So good Muslims are bound for Heaven?

As far as we don’t know who is in Heaven? That doesn’t matter and is an excuse that leads to damnation. We know what the church teachs and what the Bible states and what the mystic have said. And thats what does matter.

The Church teaches that a good Muslim may be saved. See Lumen Gentium 16.

We cannot limit God’s mercy, and we should not have the hubris to assume that God judges as man does. Christ said that he came to save all, and the Church teaces that all can be saved and that we should hope and pray for the salvation of all. Beyond that, it is not for us to say that this one or that one is saved or damned, that judgment is for God alone.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gandhi was born a Hindu and practised Hinduism all his life. As a common Hindu, he believed all religions to be equal, and rejected all efforts to convert him to a different faith. He was an avid theologian and read extensively about all major religions. He had the following to say about Hinduism:

Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being…When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, I turn to the Bhagavad Gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow. My life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, I owe it to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita.

Thers Ghandi’s religion beliefs. Was he he a great man? Of course that no the point of debate.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Church teaches that a good Muslim may be saved. See Lumen Gentium 16.

We cannot limit God’s mercy, and we should not have the hubris to assume that God judges as man does. Christ said that he came to save all, and the Church teaces that all can be saved and that we should hope and pray for the salvation of all. Beyond that, it is not for us to say that this one or that one is saved or damned, that judgment is for God alone.

Wheres the teaching with a Catholic link?

Those who don’t follow the path of Chirst we are taught to pray for. We are not taught their destination is identical to ours?

Of couse no-one knows the will of God, I been though all that already.

 

[TMC]

Wheres the teaching with a Catholic link?

Those who don’t follow the path of Chirst we are taught to pray for. We are not taught their destination is identical to ours?

Of couse no-one knows the will of God, I been though all that already.

Here is Lumen Gentium:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The point is that we don’t know if their destination is the same as ours or not, and we are not taught that it will necessarily be different.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here is Lumen Gentium:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The point is that we don’t know if their destination is the same as ours or not, and we are not taught that it will necessarily be different.

I read this many times, where in here do you get that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior and have knowledge of him reach salvation?

All that is being said is we “Know where the church is, we do not know here it is not”.

So anything contrary to understanding the Catholic Faith, we do not know where that leaves you or if that is a road to salvation. Where do you get that?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Catechism
II. HEAVEN

1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face: 598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature. 599

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,” 600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. 601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom. 602

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.” 603

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends. 604

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him “they shall reign for ever and ever.” 605

JP-II

 

[TMC]

I read this many times, where in here do you get that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior and have knowledge of him reach salvation?

All that is being said is we “Know where the church is, we do not know here it is not”.

So anything contrary to understanding the Catholic Faith, we do not know where that leaves you or if that is a road to salvation. Where do you get that?

From Lumen Gentium 16:

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.

I am not sure I understand the content of your post, but if you are saying we do not know if non-Catholics are saved or not, I agree. We do not know if Catholics are saved or not, either. The status of others souls is not ours to judge, and their fate is not ours to know.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am not sure I understand the content of your post, but if you are saying we do not know if non-Catholics are saved or not, I agree. We do not know if Catholics are saved or not, either. The status of others souls is not ours to judge, and their fate is not ours to know.

1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,” 600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. 601.

How does your church teach, you reach Heaven? Does it teach Muslims are going to Heaven? Jews? What is the path to heaven?

 

[TMC]

1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live “in Christ,” 600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. 601.

How does your church teach, you reach Heaven? Does it teach Muslims are going to Heaven? Jews? What is the path to heaven?

I am not sure what your question is. My Church is the Catholic Church, and her teachings have been much discussed in this thread. All that are saved are saved by the Grace of God. That God offers His Grace to all (and the Church’s teaching on that topic) has already been discussed.

 

[GaryTaylor]

All that are saved are saved by the Grace of God. That God offers His Grace to all (and the Church’s teaching on that topic) has already been discussed.

Well God “is” Jesus Christ your Catholic Church teachs that right?

So since Islam doesn’t believe Jesus Christ is God or savior what do they say then?

You can follow the path of Islam and be saved? Is that the thinking? Lets put it out here and let the Truth be told. Is that what you believe?

Or you don’t know what to believe? You had no problem chirpping up before about salvation? Don’t bite your tongue now.

So if thats the case why wouldn’t followers leave the CC to a softer easier place where salvation is possible? Why not just stay home and accept Jesus Christ? Why follow Christainity at all if the God of Abraham is all thats required?

Why do you follow the Catholic Church?

And no we didn’t talk about this before sorry, nice try.

 

[TMC]

Well God “is” Jesus Christ your Catholic Church teachs that right?

So since Islam doesn’t believe Jesus Christ is God or savior what do they say then?

You can follow the path of Islam and be saved? Is that the thinking? Lets put it out here and let the Truth be told. Is that what you believe?

Or you don’t know what to believe? You had no problem chirpping up before about salvation? Don’t bite your tongue now.

So if thats the case why wouldn’t followers leave the CC to a softer easier place where salvation is possible? Why not just stay home and accept Jesus Christ? Why follow Christainity at all if the God of Abraham is all thats required?

Why do you follow the Catholic Church?

And no we didn’t talk about this before sorry, nice try.

I am not sure why you are adopting this attacking tone, accusing me of biting my tongue or suggesting that I don’t know what I believe. I am being very open about what I believe about salvation - I believe what the Church teaches. I am also not sure what you mean by “my” Catholic Church - aren’t you also Catholic? Are you implying that I belong to a different kind of Catholic Church than you?

The Church teaches that God offers his saving Grace to all, and “all” means “all.” Muslims, Jews and those of other religions can be saved. When/if they are saved, it is because of a mysterious extension of Grace has made them part of the Church, even if they never formally joined the Church on earth. The Church does not pretend to understand exactly how all of this happens, and I do not pretend to understand it either - as God is beyond full human understanding. We can only believe and understand that it is possible for all men to be saved, just as Jesus said that he came to save all, and just as Paul explained that Christ’s sacrifice was made to redeem all, and just as the Church teaches that it is possible that all may be saved. That is not to say that Islam or Judaism or any other non-Catholic religion is the equal to Catholicism. It is also not to say that any of those religions are a sure path to salvation - or any kind of path to salvation. But the Church teaches that God’s mercy is infinite, that all men can be saved, and that it is not for us to judge whether one man is saved or another is damned.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am not sure why you are adopting this attacking tone, accusing me of biting my tongue or suggesting that I don’t know what I believe. I am being very open about what I believe about salvation - I believe what the Church teaches. I am also not sure what you mean by “my” Catholic Church - aren’t you also Catholic? Are you implying that I belong to a different kind of Catholic Church than you?

The Church teaches that God offers his saving Grace to all, and “all” means “all.” Muslims, Jews and those of other religions can be saved. When/if they are saved, it is because of a mysterious extension of Grace has made them part of the Church, even if they never formally joined the Church on earth. The Church does not pretend to understand exactly how all of this happens, and I do not pretend to understand it either - as God is beyond full human understanding. We can only believe and understand that it is possible for all men to be saved, just as Jesus said that he came to save all, and just as Paul explained that Christ’s sacrifice was made to redeem all, and just as the Church teaches that it is possible that all may be saved. That is not to say that Islam or Judaism or any other non-Catholic religion is the equal to Catholicism. It is also not to say that any of those religions are a sure path to salvation - or any kind of path to salvation. But the Church teaches that God’s mercy is infinite, that all men can be saved, and that it is not for us to judge whether one man is saved or another is damned.

Well why does anyone need to follow the Catholic Church then? “God offers Grace to ALL” muslims, jews everyone. Why be Catholic or Christian then?

 

[TMC]

Well why does anyone need to follow the Catholic Church then? “God offers Grace to ALL” muslims, jews everyone. Why be Catholic or Christian then?

First, because being Catholic is the right thing to do. Catholicism is not an investment program where you put in devotion now only because you have a contract to receive salvation in return. We do what we do to please God because that is the right and proper way to live, not because we fear Hell or desire Heaven (nothing wrong with fearing Hell and desiring Heaven - but that should not be the reason one loves and honors God).

Second, even for those motivated only by future “pay-offs,” we believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation and no other faith does. So being a good Catholic and Christian should give one a better chance of living a good life and being saved.

But (like the parable of the workers in the vineyard) Catholics should not begrudge the salvation of others out of some misplaced idea that Catholics are more “entitled” to salvation than others. Salvation cannot be earned, and earning salvation is not the only (or even main, IMO) reason to be a good Catholic. Besides, it is not for us to say how God distributes his Grace, and including more in salvation does not in any way diminish it for us. The Church teaches that the salvation of all is possible (not that all WILL be saved, but that it is possible), and we should hope and pray for the salvation of all.

 

[GaryTaylor]

First, because being Catholic is the right thing to do. Catholicism is not an investment program where you put in devotion now only because you have a contract to receive salvation in return. We do what we do to please God because that is the right and proper way to live, not because we fear Hell or desire Heaven (nothing wrong with fearing Hell and desiring Heaven - but that should not be the reason one loves and honors God)…

Why is it the right thing to do? You already stated anyway can get you to Heaven. Because that is the Right and proper thing to do. why?

Second, even for those motivated only by future “pay-offs,” we believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation and no other faith does. So being a good Catholic and Christian should give one a better chance of living a good life and being saved.

What is the Fullness or revelation matter if any path leads to Heaven? So being Catholic?Christian give’s you a “better chance” to get to Heaven now? How so does it do that? What does it matter if you believe anyone can go to Heaven and there are many paths?

But (like the parable of the workers in the vineyard) Catholics should not begrudge the salvation of others out of some misplaced idea that Catholics are more “entitled” to salvation than others. Salvation cannot be earned, and earning salvation is not the only (or even main, IMO) reason to be a good Catholic. Besides, it is not for us to say how God distributes his Grace, and including more in salvation does not in any way diminish it for us. The Church teaches that the salvation of all is possible (not that all WILL be saved, but that it is possible), and we should hope and pray for the salvation of all.

I’m not begrudge the salvation of others out of some misplaced idea that Catholics are more “entitled” to salvation than others. And I assure you my church isn’t teaching this MOF I’m gonna bring the Homily here for you to read from a few weeks ago.
Besides, it is not for us to say how God distributes his Grace? The Bible states how God distributes His Grace as does the catechism above and Church. You hanging you hat on Lumin Gentium and 841 and throwing 2000 years of CC teaching out the window, Those are Pius statments 50-years old already. And the Bible and Church clearly states the path to Heaven. NO-One goes to the Father except through the Son. I am the Way the Light and the Truth?

What about John 11:40? What does Christ say about the Vine in John 15; 5-8? John 5:22-23? What does John 5:41-43 state? John 8:28-29 John 8:31? John 8:54-56? John 12:26? John 14:15? Matthew 7:21-25? How about John 8:19?

I already mentioned in posts ago we are to pray for the salvation of all. Thats not the point here. The point is the Bible and Church teach “one” path to God and thats Jesus Christ, And no-where does the church say anything which contridicts scripture. Otherwise it would be in heresy.

Its a very pius thought to believe all good men could go to to heaven through the grace of God because in truth we are all children of God. But CHRISTIANITY and Christology are called exactly that for a reason. Because the New Testament defined the path for Gods followers. Christ is God and He is the path to salvation. And when you don’t believe “exactly” that, Its called Christain heresy. And the CC teachs the Gospel “weekly”.

 

[TMC]

Why is it the right thing to do? You already stated anyway can get you to Heaven. Because that is the Right and proper thing to do. why?

What is the Fullness or revelation matter if any path leads to Heaven? So being Catholic?Christian give’s you a “better chance” to get to Heaven now? How so does it do that? What does it matter if you believe anyone can go to Heaven and there are many paths?

I’m not begrudge the salvation of others out of some misplaced idea that Catholics are more “entitled” to salvation than others. And I assure you my church isn’t teaching this MOF I’m gonna bring the Homily here for you to read from a few weeks ago.
Besides, it is not for us to say how God distributes his Grace? The Bible states how God distributes His Grace as does the catechism above and Church. You hanging you hat on Lumin Gentium and 841 and throwing 2000 years of CC teaching out the window, Those are Pius statments 50-years old already. And the Bible and Church clearly states the path to Heaven. NO-One goes to the Father except through the Son. I am the Way the Light and the Truth?

What about John 11:40? What does Christ say about the Vine in John 15; 5-8? John 5:22-23? What does John 5:41-43 state? John 8:28-29 John 8:31? John 8:54-56? John 12:26? John 14:15? Matthew 7:21-25? How about John 8:19?

I already mentioned in posts ago we are to pray for the salvation of all. Thats not the point here. The point is the Bible and Church teach “one” path to God and thats Jesus Christ, And no-where does the church say anything which contridicts scripture. Otherwise it would be in heresy.

Its hard for me to believe that a Catholic and a Christian would not see any value in loving and serving God, unless those actions were compensated with a better afterlife. Catholicism is not about upgrading one’s afterlife - its about living this life properly and well, serving God and serving others. Do you really think that people should only do good if they get some commensurately larger pay-back from God in exchange?

Hanging my hat on the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church and the Catechism is not throwing the teaching of the Church out the window - it is the teaching of the Church – I am relying on the Dogmatic Constitution and the Catechism. You keep referring to the teaching of your Church as if it were not the teaching of the Catholic Church, and you even end your post by suggesting the Church is teaching heresy - I don’t understand if you are disagreeing with the Church, disagreeing with my explanation of the Church’s teaching, or what.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Its hard for me to believe that a Catholic and a Christian would not see any value in loving and serving God, unless those actions were compensated with a better afterlife. Catholicism is not about upgrading one’s afterlife - its about living this life properly and well, serving God and serving others. Do you really think that people should only do good if they get some commensurately larger pay-back from God in exchange?

Hanging my hat on the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church and the Catechism is not throwing the teaching of the Church out the window - it is the teaching of the Church – I am relying on the Dogmatic Constitution and the Catechism. You keep referring to the teaching of your Church as if it were not the teaching of the Catholic Church, and you even end your post by suggesting the Church is teaching heresy - I don’t understand if you are disagreeing with the Church, disagreeing with my explanation of the Church’s teaching, or what.

Its one paragraph out of 100, as is 841 which is highly controversal. You seem to think think the entire Catholic Church teaching revolves around those two paragraphs. And I’m here to tell its not so. I attend three different churchs in this area. All three have a different teaching. So no they all are not on the same page. The church I belong is the oldest and from the east, and its not a many paths to heaven concept. I’m going their tonight. They just did a Homily on this many paths to Heaven theory. I’m gonna as for a copy from the priest to post. And see if its OKK to post it here.

I’m shocked your church teachs there are many paths to Heaven?

Why do you keep referring to payback from God? Where does that come from? What does that have to do with anything? I follow Christ because I felt a calling to the Cross as a Child, period. I’m postive Christ is the way and the truth and the life. And I’m convinced that Cross is the salvation.

 

[TMC]

Its one paragraph out of 100, as is 841 which is highly controversal. You seem to think think the entire Catholic Church teaching revolves around those two paragraphs. And I’m here to tell its not so. I attend three different churchs in this area. All three have a different teaching. So no they all are not on the same page. The church I belong is the oldest and from the east, and its not a many paths to heaven concept. I’m going their tonight. They just did a Homily on this many paths to Heaven theory. I’m gonna as for a copy from the priest to post. And see if its OKK to post it here.

I’m shocked your church teachs there are many paths to Heaven?

Why do you keep referring to payback from God? Where does that come from? What does that have to do with anything? I follow Christ because I felt a calling to the Cross as a Child, period. I’m postive Christ is the way and the truth and the life. And I’m convinced that Cross is the salvation.

The payback comment was in response to your comments questioning why anyone would bother being Christian if one could get to heaven without being Christian. You seem to think that if it is not impossible for non-Christians to go to heaven being Christian is not worthwhile. That is not my view, and I don’t think that viewpoint is consistent with the Church’s teaching.

My Church does not teach that there are many paths to heaven. My Church - the Catholic Church - teaches that Christ is the only path to heaven. But the Church also teaches that Christ may extend his saving Grace to those that are not Catholic. He saves who He deems is to be saved - not who we deem should be saved. That teaching is not inconsistent with any of the references you posted.

Why do you keep referring to “your” Church and “my” Church as if it they were not the same Church? The teaching I am referring to is the teaching of the Catholic Church - what teaching are you referring to?

 

[meltzerboy]

First, because being Catholic is the right thing to do. Catholicism is not an investment program where you put in devotion now only because you have a contract to receive salvation in return. We do what we do to please God because that is the right and proper way to live, not because we fear Hell or desire Heaven (nothing wrong with fearing Hell and desiring Heaven - but that should not be the reason one loves and honors God).

Second, even for those motivated only by future “pay-offs,” we believe that the Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation and no other faith does. So being a good Catholic and Christian should give one a better chance of living a good life and being saved.

But (like the parable of the workers in the vineyard) Catholics should not begrudge the salvation of others out of some misplaced idea that Catholics are more “entitled” to salvation than others. Salvation cannot be earned, and earning salvation is not the only (or even main, IMO) reason to be a good Catholic. Besides, it is not for us to say how God distributes his Grace, and including more in salvation does not in any way diminish it for us. The Church teaches that the salvation of all is possible (not that all WILL be saved, but that it is possible), and we should hope and pray for the salvation of all.

Except for the somewhat different connection between good works and faith and the notion of Hell as “separation from G-d” rather than also a physical punishment, everything you say is EXACTLY the position held in Judaism about salvation. I agree with you that being a good Catholic (or a good Jew) is not or should not be for the main purpose of earning reward points for salvation. In Judaism, the focus of life is not on salvation but on the here and now, and we are forbidden to speculate regarding who may be saved and who may not. We leave this to G-d and try to lead the best lives we can for G-d and our fellow men, including kindness to animals. Faith in G-d is certainly a component here, but the best way to show one’s faith is through compassion and generosity to others. Your discussant may argue why be Catholic then, and some of my faith may say the same thing in reverse. Well, as you know, there are some very essential differences as to Whom exactly we believe is bestowing Grace on us and what exactly it means to be faithful. Nonetheless, I think we both believe that the decision regarding salvation rests with G-d, not with man, since we do not FULLY understand the mysteries of G-d’s mercy and justice.