How exactly do you reconcile that with the fact that death occurred all over the earth, before any humans existed on earth ?
Good grief it says in the Bible itself that Enoch did not die. I totally give up on people where something is as obvious as the air I breathe.There are many problems with what your priest is supposedly saying. But it is apparent why you believe the way you do.
You (and your priest) had better review the Catechism of the Catholic Church on its fundamental doctrine on Original Sin, (#413-421 summary) There are NO EXCEPTIONS save one: The Immaculate Conception.
This INFALLIBLE Doctrine of the Catholic Church in no way contradicts the passages you have quoted, yet you ignore the Gospel of John 3:13. Your interpretation of the passages you quoted is reading into them what is not there, but imposing a Fundamentalist Christian (not Catholic) view upon them.
Saying Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and whoever else you might think of, all avoided death and were assumed directly into heaven, DOES VIOLENCE to Catholic Church doctrine on Original Sin, and the Redemption of Jesus Christ. These are ALL infallible doctrines that REQUIRE faith of Catholics. It also DOES VIOLENCE to the extraordinary significance of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of our Blessed Mother.
Even the Eastern Church doctrine holds to our “fallen nature” after the fall of Adam and Eve, and therefore required Redemption by Jesus Christ the Messiah BEFORE anyone could enter Heaven.
Here’s a great link for you and your priest: Enoch, Elijah and Moses -Not a Catholic website, but still has very good answers for you BASED ON SCRIPTURE
IrishGal
) is therefore empirically clear to me.Tim I think it all comes down to how people use the word “punishment.”
I guess you are too busy to read the link I posted that proves the Bible says they DID DIE. You should know that your position on Old Testament figures being assumed into heaven is an Evangelical, fundamentalist Protestant position, not a Catholic one. Jesus Himself says you are wrong in John 3:13.
Well put, AmbroseSJ. This really does sum up the challenge quite nicely.
I’m unaware of any tradition or liturgical celebration in which Mary’s freedom from death is commemorated in Christendom.
Neither Elijah nor Moses exist in heaven body and soul together with Jesus and Mary. Meanwhile the prophet and the law giver still await the redemption of their bodies on the last day (having been conceived sinners) when they will be glorified - now that Christ has been raised from the dead.
True, Mary wasn’t subject to death, but neither was she subject to suffering. But she certainly did suffer internally when she stood at the foot of the cross despite her freedom from the stain of original sin. What she was necessarily spared by virtue of her divine maternity was that terrible effect of original sin: concupiscence.
But Elijah and Moses must have sinned, although we believe they were spared physical death. We musn’t assume the obvious, that Mary was exempted from experiencing death by strict necessity. Thus Mary had the freedom to decide whether she should die as did her sinless divine Son. According to the private revelations granted to saints and mystics, she chose death in union with Him.
Well if it’s a “Protestant” opinion you tell me why 3 cradle Catholic who became priests are preaching it???
IG I don’t understand the excessive veneration of the education of individual Catholic priests
. Ordination does not confer infallibility. Cradle Catholicism does not confer infallibility either (I am such and at 55 with 7 years worth of Catholic Theology qualifications behind me I am still learning fine points on this Forum I was not aware of before). I do understand that priests are worthy of great respect, especially in this day and age. But they are also human so at times they need others (both emotionally and intellectually) as no one gets it right all the time, no one is strong all the time.The conclusion was arrived at via a literal read, sola scriptura, of these accounts, absent thorough analysis.
If Mary hadn’t aged naturally and experienced pain like the rest of us, I’m sure everyone, including the apostles, would have noticed this extraordinary phenomena. By being human, Mary was implicated in the sin of Adam, and so God intervened by sanctifying her soul at the first instance of her conception and preserving her free from the stain of original sin, which according to Catholic teaching is a privation of the original state of holiness and justice. We are restored to this state when we are baptized in the regenerating water of the sacrament, but the effects of original sin (concupiscence, suffering, and death) which we have inherited from Adam by progeneration still remain. Our baptism does not free us from the effects of original sin, but does open the door to the graces we need to overcome these effects by coping with them in our lives and exploiting them as an instrumental means of redemption. Because Mary was predestined to be the Mother of God, it was fitting that she be preserved free from experiencing concupiscence of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life, which the rest of us still experience notwithstanding our baptism and formal reconciliation with God. However, since Mary had an essential role to play in the divine plan of salvation, she too was called to suffer and die along with her Son. By God’s grace suffering and death have redemptive value, and so they are an instrumental means ( a formal means by Christ alone who has initially merited the grace of justification for us) for making satisfaction to God and restoring the equity of justice between God and humankind on a personal and temporal level by right of friendship. When Mary stood at the foot of the cross, she made personal satisfaction for the human race through her interior sorrow. Without experiencing all the sorrows she felt on account of her divine Son, Mary couldn’t be invoked as our co-Redemptress. And if she hadn’t been spared the sinful inclinations of our wounded human nature, she couldn’t have represented us all on a universal and personal level in association with her Son who alone made eternal satisfaction to the Father for our sins in strict justice. Thus Mary was exempted from experiencing the effects of original sin insofar her co-redemptive role would allow. If she hadn’t suffered and died, she couldn’t be associated with her Son in the redemption. As the new Eve, Mary was spared the pain of giving birth to Jesus. Eve’s curse couldn’t be cast on her in light of her person.
It would completely undermine the Patristic teaching of death as the passing into a new life, as a participation in the paschal mystery. The Theotokos was not exempt from death, even if one were to affirm the Immaculate Conception, as Good Fella pointed out.
IG
The curse of suffering from birth pangs doesn’t apply to Adam, but only to Eve. Mary is her anti-type, so this peculiar curse can’t apply to her. It wasn’t until Adam had sinned and “the eyes of both of them were opened” that suffering and death came into the world. Eve didn’t face eternal banishment (death of the body and the soul) just by partaking of the forbidden fruit, but also for having helped deceive Adam through the machinations of the serpent which the devil entered. If Adam had refused to listen to Eve, the fall of mankind (Adam) would not have occurred, and consequently suffering and death would not have entered human existence, if we are to take Genesis literally. God told Abraham that he would spare Sodom and Gomorrah through his mediation if there were at least ten righteous people living there. So Adam and Eve’s expulsion from paradise could not have occurred if at least Adam had remained righteous. Perhaps Eve could have remained in paradise free from any curse and stay immortal by making some form of restitution by her husband’s merits relying on his authority. But unfortunately, as St. Paul puts it, death came into the world through one man. And all have sinned, both men and women in general.
Is it God’s decision how one’s life ends? Is God the author of suicide or the act of murder at the hands of another? God could very well have decreed infallibly that the mother of our Lord be absolutely spared physical death as Elijah and Moses had been, although sinners. If the prophet and the law giver could be an exception to the rule, then why not Mary? For the sake of a greater good God must have honoured Mary’s choice, which I believe was made under the compelling influence of divine grace. Like I said, Mary’s co-redemptive role could not be if she hadn’t united her suffering and death with her Son’s passion. There comes a time when God does honour what we will as long as it’s in accord with his plans for us and prompted by divine grace. Luther and Calvin denied any human freedom in the divine work of salvation, since they believed human free will ceased to exist after the fall of Adam.
The Church where one can find this?
