Did Mary die or not?/Assumption

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  1. In like manner St. Francis of Sales, after asserting that it is wrong to doubt that Jesus Christ has himself observed, in the most perfect way, the divine commandment by which children are ordered to honor their parents, asks this question: “What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death if he could?”[38] And St. Alphonsus writes that “Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death, since it would have redounded to his own dishonor to have her virginal flesh, from which he himself had assumed flesh, reduced to dust.”
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  1. … Finally it is our hope that belief in Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven will make our belief in our own resurrection stronger and render it more effective.
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A “statement of purpose” for the dogmatic declaration.
 
Irishgal49 said:
OFF TOPIC FOR A SECOND:
I hear comments on the Byzantine Church…I have one nearby. The icons are totally breathtaking and I loved visiting there. It is truly a beautiful church. I often wondered if a Roman rite Catholic could get married in a Byzantine Church. It’s just so beautiful. Our churches around here all look like big gymnasiums with a couple statues tossed in.
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Sure, if you marry a Byzantine Catholic. You could follow old custom and be married within the octave of a Marian feast, including the Dormition. 😃
 
Irishgal49 said:
Ok for the 25th time …
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… the Catholic Church teaches, magisterially yet non-infallibly, that Mary died, also upheld in Sacred Tradition.

Her body was raised on the third day, not subject to corruption, and ahead of all the just, she was glorified in heaven body and soul before the Final Judgment.

It is the latter part of this teaching that was affirmed dogmatically. We believe that Mary was resurrected before any one us, now dogmatically affirmed.
 
RileyG said:
I know that her body and soul was assumed into heaven, but did she die first and then assumed or shortly after the ascension of our lord was her body and soul assumed into heaven while she was still (physically) living? What did the early Christians believe about the assumption btw? Just wondering.

Thanks

God Bless!
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Yes,

Mary died just like her son Jesus. And then was Assumed body and soul into heaven, similar to her son- Ascended into heaven.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Ok for the 25th time Jesus had a REASON to suffer death. He certainly did not have to …but chose to do so. He said himself, “No man takes my life but I lay it down willingly” He had a purpose, a reason to die. Surely He loved His own Mother enough to spare a sinless woman from death. Remember there was no death until sin entered the picture. She did not have the stain of original sin and she never sinned, so therefore, her own Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity would have saved her from death.

If Elijah and Enoch (and possibly Moses) merited being saved from death, how much more the Mother of God.
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Mary and all of humanity has already been saved from death by Jesus dying on the cross. No need to extend the special treatment given to Enoch and Elijah because Enoch and Elijah would have been at the clutches of death. All those who died after Good Friday 33AD are not bound by death. The special treatment Mary received is that her body was not allowed to be physically corrupt, therefore she was resurrected and then assumed into heaven.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Sure, if you marry a Byzantine Catholic. You could follow old custom and be married within the octave of a Marian feast, including the Dormition. 😃
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Awesome! Guess I better ‘shop’ there. Whoever keeps saying I have to agree with them or I’m sinning can stop it. I understand we all are passionate about what we believe but this is not part of the required teaching and we all know it. I am too tired from a long day at work to scroll back in these posts to find the author. It’s not true and you know better. There has to be SOME valid reason the Church would allow for people to believe that the Blessed Mother did not die. Priest #2 tonight at the service I attended, “Mary fell into a sleep like state and was taken to heaven.” I know what it is, it’s a Michigan belief. I swear I can’t find anyone who says she died in either parish I attend. I am asking lots of people because I want to see how strongly these different beliefs are held.

I do not believe she died but I am curious why the Church has two groups on this topic. And whoever you are (no disrespect intended, I’m just tired) I AM allowed to believe she didn’t die (at least for now).
 
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ByzCathCantor:
Elijah didn’t die, Moses didn’t die, Enoch didn’t die
At the Transfiguration who appears with Jesus?
Elijah and Moses, because they had bodies
also Elijah had to return in order to proclaim the Messiah had come. Jews still set a place for Elijah today knowing he will come and declare the Messiah is here.
I often thought that the Transfiguration included those who hadn’t tasted death because they were still in bodily form and hadn’t tasted death.
Many see the Blessed Mother in apparitions. I see it the same way. The best way to preserve her from corruption is to never have her taste death. She was the new Eve, before the fall. Before the fall there was no death. She returned to that before fall state in two ways; no original sin, and never sinning herself. Therefore she did not die. It’s obvious to me.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Elijah didn’t die, Moses didn’t die, Enoch didn’t die
At the Transfiguration who appears with Jesus?
Elijah and Moses, because they had bodies
also Elijah had to return in order to proclaim the Messiah had come. Jews still set a place for Elijah today knowing he will come and declare the Messiah is here.
I often thought that the Transfiguration included those who hadn’t tasted death because they were still in bodily form and hadn’t tasted death.
Many see the Blessed Mother in apparitions. I see it the same way. The best way to preserve her from corruption is to never have her taste death. She was the new Eve, before the fall. Before the fall there was no death. She returned to that before fall state in two ways; no original sin, and never sinning herself. Therefore she did not die. It’s obvious to me.
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Moses didn’t die??
Deuteronomy 34
5So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said;
6and he was buried in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; to this day no one knows the place of his burial.
7Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were undimmed and his vigor unabated.

_
 
Irishgal49 said:
Elijah didn’t die, Moses didn’t die, Enoch didn’t die
At the Transfiguration who appears with Jesus?
Elijah and Moses, because they had bodies
also Elijah had to return in order to proclaim the Messiah had come. Jews still set a place for Elijah today knowing he will come and declare the Messiah is here.
I often thought that the Transfiguration included those who hadn’t tasted death because they were still in bodily form and hadn’t tasted death.
Many see the Blessed Mother in apparitions. I see it the same way. The best way to preserve her from corruption is to never have her taste death. She was the new Eve, before the fall. Before the fall there was no death. She returned to that before fall state in two ways; no original sin, and never sinning herself. Therefore she did not die. It’s obvious to me.
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You are taking things for granted that just aren’t true.

Moses, Elijah, and Enoch ALL DIED.

NONE of them were assumed into heaven.

JESUS Himself said this. Look through the previous posts if you don’t remember for the quote.

Remember Samuel was conjured up by the witch of Endor? Maybe he was assumed too?

What about St. John the Baptist? Jesus says HE was the GREATEST of ALL the prophets, and yet he was beheaded. How do you reconcile that?

EVERYONE had to wait for the Redemption before the Gates of Heaven were opened. My goodness, this is basic catechism stuff.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
How are you so certain that Elijah and Enoch did not die?

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Why would the mother not suffer death when the Son, surely greater, did in fact suffer it? That would make no sense.

And BTW - we are still bound to accept non-infallible magisterial teachings, albeit via loyal submission of will and intellect.

If not, then our faith would be reduced to believe in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption alone.
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And Pastor Aeternus plus the decrees of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
You are taking things for granted that just aren’t true.

Moses, Elijah, and Enoch ALL DIED.

NONE of them were assumed into heaven.

JESUS Himself said this. Look through the previous posts if you don’t remember for the quote.

Remember Samuel was conjured up by the witch of Endor? Maybe he was assumed too?

What about St. John the Baptist? Jesus says HE was the GREATEST of ALL the prophets, and yet he was beheaded. How do you reconcile that?

EVERYONE had to wait for the Redemption before the Gates of Heaven were opened. My goodness, this is basic catechism stuff.
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Incorrect, Enoch did not die (Hebrews 11:5). Moses is questionable. The story of Elijah says it all. He was taken in a fiery chariot very much alive and Elisha witnessed it (II Kings 2:11). I’ll concede on Moses–though his body was never found.

And I am not embarassed as ALL basic Christianity teaches that Enoch and Elijah were alive. In fact, when I asked my priest this morning, he laughed out loud and said, “It seems like someone else needs a repeat of their catechism. You are correct, it is Christian teaching that Elijah and Enoch did not die.” He said Moses was debatable and the Blessed Mother is debatable.
 
OK - one more time, lest we doubt the words of the Word, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:13[/BIBLEDRB]

“Heaven” and “heavens” have sundry meanings in the Old Testament world.

We speak of the “third heaven”, as it is known in this conceptualization.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 12:2[/BIBLEDRB]

St. Paul, being a very learned scholar of Judaism, in keenly aware of this construct and the distinctions.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
OK - one more time, lest we doubt the words of the Word, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:13[/BIBLEDRB]

“Heaven” and “heavens” have sundry meanings in the Old Testament world.

We speak of the “third heaven”, as it is known in this conceptualization.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 12:2[/BIBLEDRB]
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St. Paul, being a very learned scholar of Judaism, in keenly aware of this construct and the distinctions.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Incorrect, Enoch did not die (Hebrews 11:5). Moses is questionable. The story of Elijah says it all. He was taken in a fiery chariot very much alive and Elisha witnessed it (II Kings 2:11). I’ll concede on Moses–though his body was never found.

And I am not embarassed as ALL basic Christianity teaches that Enoch and Elijah were alive. In fact, when I asked my priest this morning, he laughed out loud and said, “It seems like someone else needs a repeat of their catechism. You are correct, it is Christian teaching that Elijah and Enoch did not die.” He said Moses was debatable and the Blessed Mother is debatable.
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There are many problems with what your priest is supposedly saying. But it is apparent why you believe the way you do. 😦

You (and your priest) had better review the Catechism of the Catholic Church on its fundamental doctrine on Original Sin, (#413-421 summary) There are NO EXCEPTIONS save one: The Immaculate Conception.

This INFALLIBLE Doctrine of the Catholic Church in no way contradicts the passages you have quoted, yet you ignore the Gospel of John 3:13. Your interpretation of the passages you quoted is reading into them what is not there, but imposing a Fundamentalist Christian (not Catholic) view upon them.

Saying Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and whoever else you might think of, all avoided death and were assumed directly into heaven, DOES VIOLENCE to Catholic Church doctrine on Original Sin, and the Redemption of Jesus Christ. These are ALL infallible doctrines that REQUIRE faith of Catholics. It also DOES VIOLENCE to the extraordinary significance of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of our Blessed Mother.

Even the Eastern Church doctrine holds to our “fallen nature” after the fall of Adam and Eve, and therefore required Redemption by Jesus Christ the Messiah BEFORE anyone could enter Heaven.

Here’s a great link for you and your priest: Enoch, Elijah and Moses -Not a Catholic website, but still has very good answers for you BASED ON SCRIPTURE
 
thistle said:
There is an existing thread running on this and nobody is giving me a straight answer there.

The question should be:

Is the death of Mary a Church doctrine that binds Catholics upon pain of mortal sin?
Are Catholics who do not believe Mary died before being assumed committing a sin of grave matter?
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I was listening to Fr. Dave Dwyer on the Busted Halo radio Show on sirius and he said that it is not a required belief and that we do not know either way.
 
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