Did Mary die?

[twf]

Why do we need a “definition!!!” What is with this hang up on formal definitions that some modern Catholics seem to have…until 1215 the Real Presence wasn’t formally defined. Do you think that for the first 1200 years of Church history Catholics were free to reject it?! Of course not. Dogmatic definitions are formulated from time to time to clarify certain essential matters; Sacred Tradition, however, is far richer and deeper than that and not limited only to a handful of dogmatic definitions. As other posters have pointed out, Tradition, iconography, liturgy, the saints, the popes, etc all testify to Our Blessed Mother’s death; therefore she did die. I don’t see why anyone would question this…

 

[pnewton]

Yes, it mentions she was saved from corruption of the tomb. Her entombment in Byzantine tradition is mentioned. But the fact of her death is not defined in this document. You may get tired of hearing it, but Mary’s death is not a teaching of the Church, only her assumption is (dogma). Dormition, death or whatever, the Church has not defined this.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12MUNIF.HTM

 

[Augustine_M]

I heard a Catholic apologist say a few days ago that Mary died and was assumed into Heaven 3 days later.

He said that there is today a ‘Mary’s tomb’ in the Holy Land that pilgrims visit.

Jesus died not because he contracted original sin but because he chose to accomplish his salvific work that way. So it was up to him to choose how his Most Holy mother would share his complete union with him. Mary of course was preserved from the effects of original sin from the time of her conception because God had chosen her to be the Mother of God the Son.
Assumption means that Mary was assumed to heaven both body and soul because Jesus would not allow the body of his Most Holy mother to be corrupted. Mary did die but up to date nobody knows the whereabouts of her grave (her remains for that matter). You have read that the remains of many great saints have been claimed by many states and are venerated but no one has calimed the ramains of Mary.

And we have to note that the Church was empowered by Our Lord to teach infallibly so any body who doubts Church’s teachings doubts Jesus’s teaching.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Many, however, are of the general opinion that she did die first. I personally believe this as well.

I believe this also. I remember a theology professor saying that Mary had to die, as her son Jesus did and she was not greater than her own son. Therefore…
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[SacredHeartFan]

well they found her tomb with no bones so i am guessing that she died first yes. (or was that someone else’s tomb that they found?)

 

[Tietjen]

I believe this also. I remember a theology professor saying that Mary had to die, as her son Jesus did and she was not greater than her own son. Therefore…
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

I personally believe that Mary went into dormition and was taken body and soul to Heaven, but as many have stated the Church does not specifically define whether she actually died or simply went to sleep. I lean toward the dormition side simply because Mary was without sin and death is the result of sin. If there is no sin, there would be no corruption and death. I do understand the argument that Mary chose to die in order to share in her Son’s suffering and If I make it to Heaven, I look forward to knowing the truth on the matter one way or the other.

I am however, curious as to how your professor can come to the conclusion that had Mary not died she would have been greater than Jesus. There have been others taken directly to Heaven without passing through death’s door and these have not been elevated above the Son of God. God bless.

 

[Biblioassistant]

I think she died. After all, Jesus died.

I think she gave birth naturally too. (and I will now don my asbestos suit)

 

[Canto]

According to the 1582 Rheims New Testament

The common opinion is that she lived 63 years in all. Atthe time of her death, (as St. Denys first, and after him St. Damascene de dormit. Deipara. writeth) all the Apostles then dispersed into diverse nations to preach the Gospel, were miraculously brought together (saving St. Thomas who came the third day after) to Jerusalem, to honor her divine departure and funeral, as the said St. Denys witnesseth. Who saith that himself, St. Timothy, and St. Hierotheus were present: testifying also of his own hearing, that both before her death and after for three days, not only the Apostles and other holy men present, but the Angels also and Powers of heaven did sing most melodious Hymns. They buried her sacred body in Gethsemani; but for St. Thomas sake, who desired to see and to reverence it, they opened the sepulchre the third day, and finding it void of the holy body, but exceedingly fragrant, they returned, assuredly deeming that her body was assumpted into heaven as the Church of God holdeth, being most agreeable to the singular privilege of the mother of God, and therefore celebrateth most solemnly the day of her Assumption. And that is consonant not only to the said St. Denys, and St. Damascene, but to holy Athanasias also, who avoucheth the same, Serm. in Evang. de Deipara. of which Assumption of her body, St. Bernard also wrote five notable sermons extant in his works.

 

[Spirithound]

I think she gave birth naturally too. (and I will now don my asbestos suit)

What meaneth thou by “naturally”?

 

[eelpis]

I think she died. After all, Jesus died.

I think she gave birth naturally too. (and I will now don my asbestos suit)

If you think that a virgin can give birth naturally while still remaining a virgin, you won’t need the asbestos suit…yet anyway

As Oscar Wilde said: “I can believe anything, provided that it is quite incredible.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Our very Creed says of Jesus that he was “BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY”. If God created everything that is with a single thought, what is more difficult. Creation, or “The Virgin Birth”. Don’t forget, God created nature and is not subject to its laws. Rather, nature is subject to God.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Hesychios]

What meaneth thou by “naturally”?

I guess “naturally” means a vaginal delivery.

I think so too. And I don’t think that this is a contradiction to virginity.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am quite uncomfortable with this understanding of “official.” This seems to be a very popular view of Catholic doctrine, but it ends up leading to very dangerous waters. This very approach, suggesting that only the ex cathedra pronouncements of a Pope can be seen as being “official,” is just why so many were, and are, willing to entertain the idea of ordination of women. They would maintain that 2000 years of constant witness in practice, teaching and tradition were less than “official” and thereby eligible for rejection. I cannot agree with this however, and have to believe that the constant witness of the Church, and that very witness which compelled Pope Pius XII to promulgate Munificentissimus Deus in the first place, should be enough to move us to accept that the Blessed Virgin Mary did in fact die before her assumption.

You bring up a very excellent point, and one I would agree with. I did not intend to imply otherwise nor did I intend to feed into the notion that ex cathedra statements are the only thing that is “official.” I agree that that is a silly attitude (it would mean the only things we’re really sure of is the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption!). I confess I don’t know enough of the tradition and history on this topic to really say anything beyond “It doesn’t say anything about it one way or the other in the Catechism.”

I think the popular apologetics talking point is that it’s still up for debate, but, of course, that doesn’t mean that’s accurate.

 

[pnewton]

well they found her tomb with no bones so i am guessing that she died first yes. (or was that someone else’s tomb that they found?)

Are you referring to the house of Mary in Ephesus?

 

[Spirithound]

I guess “naturally” means a vaginal delivery.

I think so too. And I don’t think that this is a contradiction to virginity.

I’m trying to ascertain whether the poster was implying that Joseph had more to do with Jesus’s birth than he really did…

 

[Extempore]

I guess “naturally” means a vaginal delivery.

I think so too. And I don’t think that this is a contradiction to virginity.

I think the issue is whether she did so “painlessly” or not since that was a curse brought about by original sin. My understanding is that the Protestants tend to think that Mary suffered giving birth to Christ while Catholics believe that she did not.

 

[Hesychios]

I think the issue is whether she did so “painlessly” or not since that was a curse brought about by original sin. My understanding is that the Protestants tend to think that Mary suffered giving birth to Christ while Catholics believe that she did not.

Well, according to the accounts she knew the birth was imminent, that means to me she had the onset of labor. She felt the baby pushing or she felt contractions, something was signaling the change to her. To go through that and then have the baby pop bloodlessly out of her hip doesn’t make any sense.

I think that she was a real mother in every important way, not exempted.

 

[Hesychios]

Are you referring to the house of Mary in Ephesus?

That would be the tomb in Jerusalem.

 

[pnewton]

That would be the tomb in Jerusalem.

Interesting. Then we have two conflicting locations.

Personally, I am inclined to go with the Orthodox teaching on this and believe it is both apt and a greater tradition that she died.

 

[wynd]

Could you point me to the paragraph number(s) you are referring to?

The passage I was quoting was from paragraph 44 of Munificentissimus Deus. It simply states:

“that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory” (emphasis added).

This could mean death, but not necessarily so.

I wrote this in a similar thread a few days ago. I will just copy and paste:

In the beginning of the document:

1. …] Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”

More:20. …] [The church fathers] offered more profound explanations of its meaning and nature, bringing out into sharper light the fact that this feast shows, not only that the dead body of the Blessed Virgin Mary remained incorrupt, but that she gained a triumph out of death, her heavenly glorification after the example of her only begotten Son, Jesus Christ – truths that the liturgical books had frequently touched upon concisely and briefly.

Just search for “death” in the text of the document.