Did Mary ever sin?

[TOP]

In “The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God: A Commmemoration of the 150th Anniversary of the Proclamation of the Dogma” wrote for Dec. 8, 2004 by Rev. Frederick L. Miller it states on page 14, "The eternal “concept’ God has of Mary was realized in the act of her physical conception. The Holy Spirit intervened in a unique manner in that conception. He intervened silently and secretly as Mary’s parents expressed their love for each other in the act of marital love. He intervened not only by creating Mary’s soul “out of nothing” as He does in the conception of every human person, but also by simultaneously filling her with His sanctifying presence, therby preserving her from inheriting the sin of Adam.” Tim

An earlier post.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thank you Top and VociMike. I think I understand it better. I still dont believe she was sinless. I do believe she was filled with the Holy Spirit as I am, which means she was saved but that doesnt prove she was sinless. I am still full of sin unfortunately but I know Im saved(Dont go down this road we all now there are many threads on this topic:thumbsup

Anyway I think I have had enough of this thread. Thanks again for educating me.

 

[TOP]

Through intervention, I have been saved twice.

 

[jim1130]

"ALLFORHIM:

Of course I was also shocked when I found out the CC teaches Mary was sinless and a virgin her whole life But Im glad to hear the other is not true. PHEW. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

But we’re not the only ones who believe that.

My thanks to San Juan Catholic Seminars for publishing this in their Beginning Apologetics # 5 booklet.

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

Martin Luther: “ It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin… Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” ( Works of Luther, Vol. 11, pages 319-320; Vol. 6, page 510.)

John Calvin: “ There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matthew 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company… And beside this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second.” (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25. Published in 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli: “I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel, as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” ( Zwingli Opera, Vol. 1, page 424.)

I think the most important post was by Church Militant (#100 on this thread) that shows the Reformers’ position on Mary. It is the Modernists that have veered away and decided their interpretation of Mary is accurate.

 

[whosebob]

On another note, I can’t believe this thread has gone for 114 posts and not once has the word Kecharitomone been used or explained. Interesting.

JMJ + OBT​

I addressed that issue in post #21 in this thread. Take a look and let me know what you think.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[NotWorthy]

I do believe she was filled with the Holy Spirit as I am, which means she was saved but that doesnt prove she was sinless. I am still full of sin unfortunately but I know Im saved)

Catholics teach that the Grace we are filled with is the Holy Spirit dwelling within our soul. If we sin, we reject the Holy Spirit, basically booting Him out of our soul. That’s why Catholics have so much reverence for the Sacraments, which restore us to a state of Grace, where yet again, the Holy Spirit dwells with us.

Since Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit, with the past perfect participle that Whosebob explained so well in post 21 (that whole “Kecharitomone” thing), she could not have sinned, or else whe would no longer be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Also, if you look at Mary as the fulfillment of the prophecy that God gave in Genesis 3:15 (“I will put enmity between you and the serpent”), the only way that Mary could have enmity with Satan is if she were not a slave to sin (as you and I were before baptism). This could only happen if she were sinless.

 

[NotWorthy]

JMJ + OBT​

I addressed that issue in post #21 in this thread. Take a look and let me know what you think.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

Yes, you explained it quite well, Thank you.

I’ve found that it helps to spell *Kecharitomone *correctly if I wish to search the thread for it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Catholics teach that the Grace we are filled with is the Holy Spirit dwelling within our soul. If we sin, we reject the Holy Spirit, basically booting Him out of our soul. That’s why Catholics have so much reverence for the Sacraments, which restore us to a state of Grace, where yet again, the Holy Spirit dwells with us.

Since Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit, with the past perfect participle that Whosebob explained so well in post 21 (that whole “Kecharitomone” thing), she could not have sinned, or else whe would no longer be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Also, if you look at Mary as the fulfillment of the prophecy that God gave in Genesis 3:15 (“I will put enmity between you and the serpent”), the only way that Mary could have enmity with Satan is if she were not a slave to sin (as you and I were before baptism). This could only happen if she were sinless.

Hi,
Well, if you look at Ephesians 1: 11-14. It says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption(paraphrasing). When we sin we do not actually lose the Holy Spirit. He is still in us but we can grieve the Holy Spirit and He will convict us of our sin until we repent.

Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary being sinless.The part where Christ is called the woman’s seed may be a suggestion of Christs virgin birth. The verse predicts the perpetual hostilitybetween Satan and the woman(representing all of mankind)This verse has nothing to do with Mary and everything to do with the first prophecy of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,
Well, if you look at Ephesians 1: 11-14. It says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption(paraphrasing). When we sin we do not actually lose the Holy Spirit. He is still in us but we can grieve the Holy Spirit and He will convict us of our sin until we repent.

Ephesians 13-14 - In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory. It says, “we are sealed…”, but it doesn’t say this seal lasts through to our redemption. How can there be a sin which is deadly while the Holy Spirit exists in us. How can the Holy Spirit exist in us, while at the same time some have turned back to sin?

Rather, this “Sealed with the Holy Spirit” refers to our Baptism (and Confirmation).

Genesis 3:15 has nothing to do with Mary being sinless.The part where Christ is called the woman’s seed may be a suggestion of Christs virgin birth. The verse predicts the perpetual hostilitybetween Satan and the woman(representing all of mankind)This verse has nothing to do with Mary and everything to do with the first prophecy of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

Christ is not Eve’s seed. He is Adam’s seed. Christ is also Mary’s seed. That’s shy Catholics teach that Gen. 3:15 points to Christ AND Mary.

Again, look at the phrase, “I will put enmity between you and the serpent”. **GOD **put the enmity there. God put the Grace in Mary. This can not refer to all of mankind, for man has proven time and time again not to be the enemy of Satan. Rather, man has all too often found himself a slave to sin, not an enemy of it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

QUOTE=NotWorthy;1696073]Ephesians 13-14 - In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory. It says, “we are sealed…”, but it doesn’t say this seal lasts through to our redemption. How can there be a sin which is deadly while the Holy Spirit exists in us. How can the Holy Spirit exist in us, while at the same time some have turned back to sin?

Rather, this “Sealed with the Holy Spirit” refers to our Baptism (and Confirmation).

Well that is the opinion of the CC anyway. I do not agree with this.

Again, look at the phrase, “I will put enmity between you and the serpent”. **GOD **put the enmity there. God put the Grace in Mary. This can not refer to all of mankind, for man has proven time and time again not to be the enemy of Satan. Rather, man has all too often found himself a slave to sin, not an enemy of it.

enmity between you and the woman: This is not just about snakes; it is about the enemy of our souls, Satan. your seed and her Seed: The language is ambiguous, but still contains the promise of a child. The term seed is exceedingly important. It may be translated as offspring as in Gen. 15:3 or descendants as in Gen. 15:5,13,18. The term may refer to an individual as in Gal. 3:16 or a group of people. This means, among other things, that Eve would live–at least for a while. The Seed of the woman is the Promised One, the coming Messiah of Israel. Seed continues to be used throughout the Bible as a messianic term (see Num. 24:7; and Is. 6:13). The meaning of the phrase your seed as it applies to the serpent is uncertain (but see John 8:37-47). The reference is ultimately to Satan.
A man who is born of the Holy Spirit is most certainly an enemy of satan. People who have Christ in them are enemies of satan and satan attacks them daily. This is just an opinion–but do you think satan attacks people who are not born again? He already has them. As soon as they start to turn to God you better believe he starts in on them.

 

[NotWorthy]

But the problem goes back to your original quote. You said

Well, if you look at Ephesians 1: 11-14. It says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption(paraphrasing). When we sin we do not actually lose the Holy Spirit. He is still in us but we can grieve the Holy Spirit and He will convict us of our sin until we repent.

I know you were paraphrasing, but no where does it say anything that implies “until the day of redemption”. It says you are sealed…" and it calls this an installment.

That means it’s not a full payment, it’s just one of many. There is much more to our redemption than just this one time sealing of the Holy Spirit. We will be infused with the Holy Spirit numerous more times in our life (if we are lucky), but that’s for another OSAS thread, eh?

 

[NotWorthy]

enmity between you and the woman: This is not just about snakes; it is about the enemy of our souls, Satan. your seed and her Seed: The language is ambiguous, but still contains the promise of a child. The term seed is exceedingly important. It may be translated as offspring as in Gen. 15:3 or descendants as in Gen. 15:5,13,18. The term may refer to an individual as in Gal. 3:16 or a group of people. This means, among other things, that Eve would live–at least for a while. The Seed of the woman is the Promised One, the coming Messiah of Israel.

I agree with what you are saying with the Seed being Jesus. That’s understood. What I disagree is that the woman is Eve. We are not considered the seed of Eve, we are all the seed of Adam. Jesus, too, is the seed of Adam. Does it say anywhere that He is the seed of Eve?

But instead, Jesus is the seed of Mary. The woman in Genesis 3:15 is Eve, as John revealed in his Gospel “Woman, what has this to do with me” and “Woman, behold your son” as well as Revelation, “and there appeared… a Woman, clothed with the Sun” (paraphrasing).

In OT history, enmity was not just enemies. It implied lifelong enemies that hated each other their entire lives. Only someone born in a state of Grace could fit this picture. Not someone who was saved by Faith during some part of their lives, for this shows that they had to throw off the shackles of their slavery.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But the problem goes back to your original quote. You said

I know you were paraphrasing, but no where does it say anything that implies “until the day of redemption”. It says you are sealed…" and it calls this an installment.

That means it’s not a full payment, it’s just one of many. There is much more to our redemption than just this one time sealing of the Holy Spirit. We will be infused with the Holy Spirit numerous more times in our life (if we are lucky), but that’s for another OSAS thread, eh?

Hi
Ephesians 1:11-14 Check out the bold.NIV version1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
1:12
in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
1:13
**And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
1:14
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory. **
**Douey Rheimes version(Im sure I mispelled that )**1:11
In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will.
1:12
That we may be unto the praise of his glory: we who before hoped in Christ:
1:13
In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation), in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise.
1:14
Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

**The Revised Standard Version **

Ephesians 1 Read This Chapter
1:11
In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,
1:12
we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
1:13
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1:14
which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I dont know about you but that all say the same thing to me. The wrds are slightly different but they mean the same thing.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I agree with what you are saying with the Seed being Jesus. That’s understood. What I disagree is that the woman is Eve. We are not considered the seed of Eve, we are all the seed of Adam. Jesus, too, is the seed of Adam.

Does it say anywhere that He is the seed of Eve?

I dont know why but Im not sure if I understand your point. Maybe because it is getting late and Im getting tired.

 

[tabcom]

**Back on topic . . . .

Why Protestants call Mary a sinner . . . .

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

**

 

[NotWorthy]

**Back on topic . . . .

Why Protestants call Mary a sinner . . . .

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

**

No arguement, there. What’s your point? How does this prove Mary is a sinner?

 

[tabcom]

No arguement, there. What’s your point? How does this prove Mary is a sinner?

 

[NotWorthy]

**Back on topic . . . .

Why Protestants call Mary a sinner . . . .

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

**

An armed bandit holds two people up. He gets mad and shoots the first person. Before he can shoot the second person, a policeman arrives and kills the robber. Then he gets the first victim to the hospital and saves his life.

Didn’t the policeman save both people’s lives? One before he was shot and one after he was shot?

Can’t Jesus save Mary from sin prior to her inheriting Original Sin, while He saves us from Original Sin and our past sins?

 

[tabcom]

No arguement, there. What’s your point? How does this prove Mary is a sinner?

**What is the method to salvation? Repentence.

Lu 15:10 -
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Lu 24:47 -
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Only repentent sinners call on Jesus as their Saviour.**

 

[NotWorthy]

**What is the method to salvation? Repentence.

Lu 15:10 -
“In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Lu 24:47 -
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Only repentent sinners call on Jesus as their Saviour.**

Since Jesus wasn’t even born yet, and hadn’t preached the Truth of the Gospel yet, how could Mary have known that?

Because she had already been graced by God!!!