Did Mary get baptized? Did she even need to?

[Tis_Bearself]

I have been reading a number of the past threads on the baptisms of the Apostles, which are not recounted in Scripture but are nevertheless believed to have occurred at some point prior to Pentecost, either by Jesus performing a water baptism on one or more Apostles (who could then have baptized others) or by God operating to baptize them in some manner other than water baptism.

One of the posts or sources I read suggested that Jesus baptized his mother Mary as well. Now, we know that Mary was in the upper room with the Apostles when they received the Holy Spirit, so she was confirmed along with them. And the Church teaches that baptism is necessary before one receives confirmation. Presumably if Mary had needed baptism, Jesus would have taken care of that personally.

However, Mother Mary was unique in that she had no original sin, ever - so did she even need to be baptized? Or could she just proceed straight to confirmation (Pentecost)?

I was also taught that John the Baptist was also “baptized” (original sin removed) in utero when he leapt in his mother’s womb upon sensing the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus. However, John the Baptist died long before Pentecost, so we never need to reach the question of whether he needed an additional water baptism or not.

 

[StudentMI]

If I remember right in the book The Life and Glories of St Joseph the author speculated, based on pious sources, that St Joseph was effectively baptised in the womb. I would guess Mary was as well but it’s always possible Jesus or John did baptize her as well.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

That’s entirely possible about St. Joseph, but like St. John the Baptist, he died before Pentecost, so we don’t need to consider whether he needed a water baptism.

 

[StudentMI]

Actually I take back what I said. That would imply Mary had original sin to remove. In the womb I mean.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I honestly never thought about Mary, the Apostles or anybody else like Joseph being baptized until this whole issue came up with the “can’t be confirmed if baptism not valid” this week, and Father emphasizing on another thread that Confirmation in the Catholic Church is a confirmation of the grace received at baptism rather than a person becoming an adult member of the Church (the latter is what was emphasized when I received the sacrament, because it was the 1970s, sigh).

I just realized that I never heard much of anything ever about this entire baptism of Mary/ Apostles subject. It is an odd gap.

 

[dscath]

However, Mother Mary was unique in that she had no original sin, ever - so did she even need to be baptized? Or could she just proceed straight to confirmation (Pentecost)?

I was also taught that John the Baptist was also “baptized” (original sin removed) in utero when he leapt in his mother’s womb upon sensing the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus. However, John the Baptist died long before Pentecost, so we never need to reach the question of whether he needed an additional water baptism or not.

Good points, but does not take into account the fact that while Mary and John did not “need” baptism, neither did Jesus, but he was baptized to “fulfill all righteousness”…so it makes sense, even though not recorded in scripture that Mary, the Baptizer, and the Apostles were baptized.

 

[annad347]

God wants us to be like Jesus. He didnt need to be baptized but was. Also Jesus said to baptize everyone in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We know Mary, is obedient to God so wouldnt she have wanted to be baptized, even if it wasn’t necessary? As well as all the Apostles?

I wish that was one part specifically mentioned in Scripture.

 

[Dovekin]

This kind of speculation is a good reason for giving all the sacraments of initiation at the same time. The unbaptized but confirmed is an oddball category that ordinarily not exist, but has happened. There is no good way to resolve all the issues.

Personally I prefer the God is not bound by the sacraments for understanding Mary. She is an example of being saved without baptism. (she could not have been baptized before she was saved by Christ when she was conceived)

the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded,

“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”

He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.Then they invited him to stay for a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Jesus’ own baptism by John the Baptist was a little different, in that John’s baptisms were for the removal of sins in the Jewish ritual tradition. They were not the sacrament of Baptism as the gateway sacrament to Confirmation. Someone baptized by John would have needed to be baptized again by Jesus or an already baptized Christian. (Or to have God provide for the Christian baptism in another manner.)

 

[Limoncello4021]

Since she shared vicariously in Jesus’ suffering, and since He Himself referred to His baptism as a baptism into His passion and death, I would think she was also baptized. It is something to meditate on! I’ve never considered it.
I’ve been meditating a lot on the piercing of Mary’s heart at the crucifixion, as Jesus’ heart was pierced, and it is a very fruitful meditation on how she experienced His sufferings in a different way but so meritorious for us.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Since she shared vicariously in Jesus’ suffering, and since He Himself referred to His baptism as a baptism into His passion and death, I would think she was also baptized. It is something to meditate on! I’ve never considered it.

This is a great point and makes me wonder all the more why we don’t hear more about this.

 

[dscath]

Jesus’ own baptism by John was a little different

But Jesus’ baptism, by church teaching was the institution of the sacrament, so all after him would have been expected to be baptized, even if in the form of the trinity and not simply a baptism of repentance as administered by John…So, I would still say, “to fulfill all righteousness” Mary, the Baptizer and the Apostles received sacramental baptism.

While the advent of the Holy Spirit can be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Western Church, Confirmation follows Baptism. And, at the ascension, Christ commanded that all be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…and since that happened after his passion, I assume that Mary and the apostles were baptized in the trinitarian format.

John poses a different dilemma, in that he was martyred much earlier…but there is no clear scriptural reference that he received Sacramental Baptism…I would like to think he did.

 

[fide]

I was also taught that John the Baptist was also “baptized” (original sin removed) in utero when he leapt in his mother’s womb upon sensing the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus. However, John the Baptist died long before Pentecost, so we never need to reach the question of whether he needed an additional water baptism or not.

My conclusion is that this passage:

Mat 11:11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

which was spoken before the Baptist’s martyrdom, teaches that John the Baptist was not “begotten from above” when the Spirit moved in his mother’s womb. That is, he was not baptized, not given sanctifying grace in the womb, was not (yet) “in the kingdom of heaven.”.

What happened in Elizabeth’s womb? I would say the Spirit gave a very strong charism of prophesy to him, a grace of the Holy Spirit that is not salvific. I quote below from Fr. Jordan Aumann’s book Spiritual Theology, p. 422-423. (He is passing on, here, the teachings of St. John of the Cross on the characteristics of charisms.)

5.2. In the event that God does grant a grace gratis datae, it is not a proof that a person is in the state of grace; much less can the gratuitous grace be taken as a sign that the individual is holy.
5.3. The graces gratis datae do not sanctify those who receive them. And if anyone in mortal sin were to receive one of these graces, he or she could possibly remain in a sinful state even after the gratuitous gift of charism had been received.
5.4. These graces are not given primarily for the benefit of the individual who receives them but for the good of others and for the edification of the Church.
5.5. Since the graces gratis datae are something independent of sanctity, it is not necessary that all the saints should have received them. St. Augustine gives the reason for this when he says that they were not given to all the saints lest weak souls should be deceived into thinking that such extraordinary gifts were more important than the good works that are meritorious of eternal life.

The passage from Jesus cited above seems to assert definitely that John the Baptist was not, at that time, a “born-again” member of the Kingdom, not able (yet) to see or to enter the kingdom of heaven. He was rather, still, one who was (only) “born of woman” and not “born of the Spirit”. The mother of Jesus, on the other hand, was at that moment one who was “born from above” as well as “born of a woman”, having the life of God abiding in her, and thus was “in the kingdom of heaven.”

I’m open to correction on any of these points, by one in the teaching authority of the Church, of course. I don’t think I contradict any Church teachings here.

 

[Phemie]

This kind of speculation is a good reason for giving all the sacraments of initiation at the same time. The unbaptized but confirmed is an oddball category that ordinarily not exist, but has happened. There is no good way to resolve all the issues.

Personally I prefer the God is not bound by the sacraments for understanding Mary. She is an example of being saved without baptism. (she could not have been baptized before she was saved by Christ when she was conceived)

the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded,

“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”

He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.Then they invited him to stay for a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

So they received the Holy Spirit THEN they were baptized.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But Jesus’ baptism, by church teaching was the institution of the sacrament,

I don’t think that’s right. The Church did not institute any sacraments prior to Pentecost. The Church didn’t even exist prior to Pentecost.

Catechism:

Baptism in the Church

[1226] From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

[1227] According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.29

Can a priest please clarify this? When exactly was the sacrament of Baptism “instituted”? Thanks.

@edward_george1 @InThePew

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, I would presume that neither John the Baptist nor Joseph were in heaven before Jesus died and opened the gates of heaven to the righteous. John the Baptist and Joseph would have been down in the Limbo of the Fathers waiting to be admitted to Heaven with all the other righteous people.

Also, I don’t think there’s any question that Mary was living continuously in the will of God/ kingdom of heaven. Which suggests even more strongly to me that she didn’t need baptism.

 

[dscath]

I don’t think that’s right. The Church did not institute any sacraments prior to Pentecost. The Church didn’t even exist prior to Pentecost.

Actually, its unsettled and undefinable by scripture alone. Some Church Fathers trace it to Jesus merely entering the waters with John, and others claim it was the command to go forth and baptize.

 

[Vico]

…
However, Mother Mary was unique in that she had no original sin, ever - so did she even need to be baptized? Or could she just proceed straight to confirmation (Pentecost)?
…

Catholic Encyclopedia: “Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam.”

Baptism removes that privation of sanctifying grace. The Council of Trent excluded the Blessed Virgin Mary in the dogma on Original Sin. The defining of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was given later in 1854 Ineffabilis Deus.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I wish that was one part specifically mentioned in Scripture.

It would certainly make things much easier if it was.

 

[Lucy_1]

As far as I know according to the laws in the Torah, Mary would have been “baptized” before Jesus was even born. The practice of tevilah , immersion of the entire body in water for the purpose of removing ritual impurity was part of the Levitical law. More than washing for ritual impurity, it was also considered a transformational experience for conversion. This, is far as I know, is actually what John the Baptist was doing. So even though Mary was without sin, being a Jew, she would have abided by all of the laws of Judaism.