did Mary have fallen human nature?

[expectthebest]

So why is that a problem? The Church puts more thought and care into the explication of her teachings and her interpretations of Scripture than any individual possibly can on his own. Often definitions are postponed for centuries while ripening. The Church has the promise of indefectibility from Our Lord. The Church never makes rash interpretations, and allows liberty in all things save those that can hurt people.

So why is it a problem that there are a handful of Scripture verse that Catholics must interpret in a specific way?

Never said there was a problem. I simply stated a fact. There is not room to use our own reasoning. There is the Churches reasoning and that’s it. Where did I say was a problem? I think most Catholics do not want to accept how little thought we as Cathlics are really allowed to have. I find that when it is put to people straight, they become defensive and assume I am attacking, much like you have.

Now we do use our own thought in using the rules in individual situations. This can become quite dangerous though as it is common for people to rationalize why something may or may not be a serious sin in any given situtation. This is why we must go to confession often and take direction from our Priest. But, then again, I have been left confused by different Priests giving different direction. So, if the leaders of the Church can’t stay on target, how can we common people expect too? Just my rambling thoughts…

I do, however, find it odd that it would take a long time for the Church to take a decision on an issue. Do the leaders of the Church think for themselves or is the HS guiding their thinking? Obviously, we believe the HS is guiding their thinking. Does it take centuries for the HS to take a decision. No. So one could come to the conclusion that either our Church leaders resist the HS until they just can’t resist anymore. Or they are taking decisions without the guidance of the HS and this is why it takes so long. Or, one could just believe that the HS wants it to take a long time for these decisions to be made as part of God’s plan. I guess the latter is what we need to believe to be a faithful Catholic but it doesn’t seem to make sense.

 

[expectthebest]

Is your faith based upon what Dr Strong says?

God has revealed to us in His written word that Adam & Eve were created sinless and then they sinned and so became sinners, see Gen 1-3. God has revealed in His written word that sin has been passed down to all humans from Adam, see Rom 5:12. God has revealed in His written word that the Lord Jesus was sinless, see 1Peter 2:21-22.

Now God hasn’t revealed in His written word that Mary was sinless but the Catholic Church tradition teaching says that she was sinless.

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary didn’t die(not in the Bible)

.

You have made this point. But please respond to the assersion that the meaining of the word “all” doesn’t mean what you are defining it to mean in the bit of Scripture.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Dr Strong and his cohorts were somewhat experts in the Greek. Dr Strong only emphasized what the Catholic Church had known for 2000 years. Other honest Protestant Greek Scholars will attest also to the word PAS and how it is used.

And the Bible does say Mary was sinless. It is stated in Luke 1:28. The Archangel Gabriel said **Chaire, kecharitomene **

Here is a fare dissection of the word kecharitomene by an amatuer:

geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

This person also discovered what the Church has known for 2000 years.

Hail, Full of Grace. Mary was given Grace in full measure, there was no room for sin to exist.

Kecharitomene will not be anywhere else in the Bible. Luke was a keen and sly fellow. He knew what he was writing, you do not.

The Roman Catholic Church has existed from the Day of Pentecoste. Who are you to argue with a Church that prevailed against the Gates of Hell for 2000 years?

 

[rinnie]

Blessed = sinless ???

.

blessed means Holy. Also at the risk of sounding like a protestant where does it say in the bible that Peter is Blessed, and where in the bible does it say Peter has found favor with God. Just asking. also how about this Quote God has formed the Soul and Body of the Virgin full of the Holy Spirit so that she is without all sins. Also how about full of Grace.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

I also find it intriguing that the Roman Empire fell in 476 and there were 7 years of persecution following and immediately after that Jesus ruled with an Iron rod thru the Instrumentality of his Holy Roman Church for 1000 years and Satan was let loose for a time at the end of 1007 years in the year 1483 Martin Luther was born and in my opinion fully possessed by Satan. This can be gleamed from the irrefutable fact that Martin Luther heard voices that tormented him for most of his life. God does not torment man, only Satan and his demons do.

EmeraldIsle, Not one single Christian prior to Satan manifesting himself in Martin Luther believed an iota of what you believe today.

Take it for what it is worth.

 

[brycelaliberte]

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary didn’t die(not in the Bible)

.

The Catholic Church also doesn’t teach sola scripture (because it’s not in the Bible) which leads to having both the Bible and Sacred Tradition to guide one’s way along doctrines and interpretation of the Bible.

“And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:19-21

I can tell you that the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in the Protestant church on interpretation, because I’m sure the Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict itself doctrinally.

So, to correct you, it would be;

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless (Tradition), which leads to the teaching that Mary was assumed into Heaven (Tradition).

 

[emeraldisle]

You have made this point. But please respond to the assersion that the meaining of the word “all” doesn’t mean what you are defining it to mean in the bit of Scripture.

“all” is set in the context of sin and death. Now all humans die, unless as in the case of Enoch and Elijah God takes them without dying and we know this because it’s revealed in Gods written word.

Now just as all humans die so they all have sin, which is why they die. Now I know people say what about Jesus didn’t He die and He was sinless, well again the answer is in Gods written word. Jesus laid down His life, remember He is God.
*
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18*

The bottom line is that God has revealed in His written word that only the Lord Jesus was completely and always sinless.

.

 

[expectthebest]

I also find it intriguing that the Roman Empire fell in 476 and there were 7 years of persecution following and immediately after that Jesus ruled with an Iron rod thru the Instrumentality of his Holy Roman Church for 1000 years and Satan was let loose for a time at the end of 1007 years in the year 1483 Martin Luther was born and in my opinion fully possessed by Satan. This can be gleamed from the irrefutable fact that Martin Luther heard voices that tormented him for most of his life. God does not torment man, only Satan and his demons do.

EmeraldIsle, Not one single Christian prior to Satan manifesting himself in Martin Luther believed an iota of what you believe today.

Take it for what it is worth.

There are connonized saints who were tormented by satan. Most of us are tormented by satan in some shape or form. Your argument does not hold up.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

“all” is set in the context of sin and death. Now all humans die, unless as in the case of Enoch and Elijah God takes them without dying and we know this because it’s revealed in Gods written word…

The English is poor intimation of the Real Deal, that being the Greek. The context is not sin and death. The context of PAS is “some of all types”

Lets push the Envelope a bit since you opened the door.

What happens to those babies that get aborted. Since all have sinned, they must go straight to Hell.

What happens to the Mentally Disabled. They never sinned at all because they are not capable of sinning or do they just sin because of their existence?

Children do not sin until they reach some undetermined age of accountability and reason that is unique to the individual.

The Greek has 3 words that render the word “All” in English. And those as reported earlier are

Pas
Hapas
Holos

Only Hapas means “All without exception” and it is used very rarely in scripture and for good reason.

Like I said, you have in your hands nothing but a poor imitation of the real deal or the real mccoy.

My Motto: If it aint the Greek, It aint the Bible.

P.S. I am a student of the Greek Language and have been for 10 years now.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

There are connonized saints who were tormented by satan. Most of us are tormented by satan in some shape or form. Your argument does not hold up.

Of course it does hold up. Martin Luther is not a Saint nor will he ever be one. And those saints that were tormented by voices were probably evaluated on a case by case basis. Martin Luther can not even hold a candle up to our Saints.

 

[expectthebest]

Of course it does hold up. Martin Luther is not a Saint nor will he ever be one. And those saints that were tormented by voices were probably evaluated on a case by case basis. Martin Luther can not even hold a candle up to our Saints.

Didn’t say he would every be a saint. Didn’t say I thought he should be one. I simply said that being tormented by Satan is something we all encounter. It’s called temptation! Some are tempted more than others. Some Saints were tempted more than others and the fact that they perseveered is probalby why they did become Saints. All I mean is one cannot judge a person based on the amount of torment God allows to come upon that person. So, in that sense, your argument does not hold.

By the way, aren’t all connonized Saints evaluated on a case by case basis?

 

[expectthebest]

What happens to those babies that get aborted. Since all have sinned, they must go straight to Hell.

Hasn’t the Church taught from very early times that the unbaptized go to hell? This is hard to believe but isn’t it what the Church has taught throughout the centurys? The Church today does not take such a definate stance but it has for most of its history, if I’m not mistaken. Without sin, one couldn’t be damned. Therefore, the unbaptized aborted babies would have some guilt, would they not? I’m still studying this so I could be way off base. Maybe this was never an infallible teaching. Not sure.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Didn’t say he would every be a saint. Didn’t say I thought he should be one. .

Good for you. I simply said that being tormented by Satan is something we all encounter. It’s called temptation!

Having Satan or demonic voices speak to you audibly is not the same as simple temptation which is covert. What Martin Luther experienced was Overt.

Some are tempted more than others.

Agreed, but the difference occurs drastically when it is covert vs overt.

So, in that sense, your argument does not hold

True in that sense.

Martin Luther was a false prophet and his fruit was evident of this Just as the fruit of Saints evidenced their confrimation to saint status.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Hasn’t the Church taught from very early times that the unbaptized go to hell? This is hard to believe but isn’t it what the Church has taught throughout the centurys? The Church today does not take such a definate stance but it has for most of its history, if I’m not mistaken. Without sin, one couldn’t be damned. Therefore, the unbaptized aborted babies would have some guilt, would they not? I’m still studying this so I could be way off base. Maybe this was never an infallible teaching. Not sure.

The question if for EmeraldIsle. So please let her answer the question. I trying to prove a point by asking this, so he has to answer the question from an “EXPLICITLY IN THE BIBLE” perspective. Please read the bloody posts before your comment.

 

[expectthebest]

Having Satan or demonic voices speak to you audibly is not the same as simple temptation which is covert. What Martin Luther experienced was Overt.
Agreed, but the difference occurs drastically when it is covert vs overt.
True in that sense.

Martin Luther was a false prophet and his fruit was evident of this Just as the fruit of Saints evidenced their confrimation to saint status.

I would agree and disagree. Everything he did was not good. Some things he did were good and the Church has recognized that he brought about some needed reforms. I seems like I read that out current Pope doesn’t even think that he should have been excommunicated.

As for fruits, I think many could argue there have been some pretty damaging fruits that have come from the Church now and again. After all, wasn’t this what spurred the reformation in the first place? Lutherans would argue that Luther brought the Church back to the Truth. Not saying I agree but some make a pretty good argument.

 

[expectthebest]

The question if for EmeraldIsle. So please let her answer the question. I trying to prove a point by asking this, so he has to answer the question from an “EXPLICITLY IN THE BIBLE” perspective. Please read the bloody posts before your comment.

Please share your rules of posting with us all us so these kinds of mistakes won’t happen in the future. In fact, how about we all ok our posts through “Peter da Rock” via private message prior to posting anything. This may help to prevent Peter from becoming tiresome of us mere commoners making posts that get in the middle of his conversations. A thousand sorrys. I’ll try to make sure my ignorance doesn’t get in your way from now on.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Please share your rules of posting with us all us so these kinds of mistakes won’t happen in the future. In fact, how about we all ok our posts through “Peter da Rock” via private message prior to posting anything. This may help to prevent Peter from becoming tiresome of us mere commoners making posts that get in the middle of his conversations. A thousand sorrys. I’ll try to make sure my ignorance doesn’t get in your way from now on.

A thousand forgivens.

 

[rinnie]

Here is something to think about, When you were talking back a few posts about retarded Children, would they really be sinless, Let me say this, Ok we are born into sin, then we are baptised. Now they get baptised, now they cant sin because they are not capable of it, they cant cheat, lie, steal, kill, not for evil purposes. Only can they do these things, in fear , they are inocent. One day Father had a sermon on them i will never forget, and he said they are the Perfect child but like Christ was perfect he was not accepted, they also are perfect and they are not accepted. think about it. now this is not the RCC thats has this opinion, just my personal one, but something to think about. To have no sin, is to not even be able to think if it right, their mind is perfectly inocent, they could care less about money, cars, houses, material things, wouldnt really know the difference anyway. All they do is give Love, think about it, all they do is smile, and have you ever had one hug you. Oh my It is so full of GOD. LOVE. PURE, its unreal. So could it be that they are also sinless. IMO i cant see any other way.

 

[Good_Fella]

Blessed = Sinless???

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 41-42}

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers. He (She) will strike at your head, while you strike at his (her) heel.” {Genesis 3, 15}

Both the woman and her offspring share no common ground with Satan and original sin. Being at enmity with the devil and his offspring, both mother and child were sinless. Hence, Elizabeth was moved to acknowledge that both Mary and Jesus were blessed: sinless. At least Luke’s church believed this to be true.

With respect to true blessedness, and alluding to his blessed mother, Jesus tells the woman in the crowd: “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” {Luke 11, 28}

To keep the word of God is to be sinless and in a state of blessedness or grace.

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.” {Luke 1, 28}

Why is it that you take personal offense to the belief that Mary was sinless? Do you think that a human being is deified by being sinless, or that God’s glory is diminished in some way? Yet Luke tells us that Mary’s soul magnified the Lord {1,46}. And I do recall that Jesus exhorts us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We, who are created in the Divine image, are expected to respond to God’s grace and to obey His will. This is as perfect as we can possibly be. Indeed, we are most blessed among all creatures when we hear the word of God and observe it. God put enmity a total polarization] between the woman and the serpent, so there is no room for idolatry by believing that Mary was just as sinless as her Son was sinless; both mother and child sharing no common ground with the devil.

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy mother.”
Ephraem, ‘Nisibene Hymns’ (A.D. 370)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Luk 1:48

For3754 he hath regarded1914 the3588 low estate5014 of his848 handmaiden:1399 for,1063 behold,2400 from575 henceforth3568 all3956 generations1074 shall call me blessed.3106, 3165

**

**
G3106**

**

μακαρίζω

makarizō
*
mak-ar-id’-zo*

From G3107; to beatify, that is, pronounce (or esteem) fortunate: - call blessed, count happy.

American Heritage Dictonary - Beatify

To exalt above all others.