did Mary have fallen human nature?

[Joero]

There is no problem for an all powerful God to be born of a sinful woman. His power is greater than sin and He would not be “contaminated” by it. We know this is true by the mere fact that Jesus Himself Who lived among sinfull people was not contaminated by them.

I think the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity, which is Christ, is not borne of any abracadabra thing or any sort of a magic by God that His Son should be incarnated from a woman. It was real and should entail the right procedure for God in making such a move. For His Son, the Word, according to John 1: 1, 14 is God.

If we go back to the Old Testament times, in Deut. 18: 15 - 19, the Israelites were so afraid of God who spoke to them, for which reason they asked Moises not to let them hear God’s words. Thus God promised to Moises that He would choose a prophet to talk to them that those who would not heed to his messages shall be punished. In the New Testament times, we all know that this prophet is not an ordinary prophet but a God manifested in human form.

I think that the contamination issue of those sinners, like us, who were with Christ during His ministry is irrelevant.

True. He also allowed Him to live among sinful men and fallen angels. Paul in Philippians 2:6-7 deals with this issue by saying that Christ “emptied” Himself which implies He did not possess all the attributes of deity in their fullness while in the flesh.

" For the full content of divine nature lives in Christ, in His humanity" ( Colossians 2: 9 ).

Not so. Even though Jesus was concieved through Mary He still was sinless. It does not require Mary to be without sin but that God’s power is greater than sin.

" My thoughts are not like yours and My ways are different from yours, says the Lord." (Isaiah 55: 8)

 

[Good_Fella]

Adam & Eve were created by God and they were created sinless? (Gen 1-3.)

Now where does God say in His written word that Mary was sinless.

If God made Mary sinless and kept her sinless, then why doesn’t He do this to all mankind? Adam and Eve clearly demonstrated humanity’s inability to remain sinless. This is why the plan of redemption was in place before the foundation of the world.

.

First of all, allow me to answer your question: Mankind did not conceive and bear the Only-begotten Son of God. Mary did. And her sinlessness does not necessarily preclude our need of redemption. Mary was in need of a saviour just like the rest of us, but God redeemed her at the precise moment He fashioned her soul on account of her Divine maternity. I’m sure you believe that Jesus is God made man. The evangelist Luke believed this, which explains why he draws a parallel between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant. Scripture implicitly tells us that Mary was sinless, for she was especially chosen to carry the Word made flesh.

Adam and Eve were created in the original state of holiness and justice before God. And they did fall from God’s grace. This is the truth - whether they had actually existed as historical persons or serve as archteypes of human nature. But, after the fall, God told the serpent: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, AND between your offspring and hers; He (She) will strike at your head, while you strike at his (her) heel” (Gen 3, 15). Now Protestants will argue that this passage simply means that God will correct things by sending his Only-begotten Son into the world to redeem mankind by becoming flesh. But they overlook the conjunction that signifies that both mother and child share common ground against Satan and original sin. The Protoevangelium clearly declares that both Mary and Jesus have absolutely nothing to do with the serpent and his offspring. In ancient Hebrew, the original text, the word “enmity” specifically means “totally polarized” or “at odds with”. The first prophecy of the Messiah includes Mary, who shares common ground with her son. Obviously, Mary is not divine; so how can she be on an equal level with Jesus (Son of Man) against Satan other than being sinless as her Divine son was.

The Church in Palestine perceived this truth about Mary revealed in Genesis, and so Luke wrote to confirm this traditional belief in his gospel. Notice the parallel and let’s forget about linguistics and the copying from the original texts. God’s Word is inerrant, and it must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition: When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, AND blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Luke 1, 41-42). Mary is more blessed than any other natural woman not because she was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah, but because she was equally blessed with her offspring, both of whom were at enmity with the devil and his offspring - original sin. This was the belief of the Church in Luke’s time, and so he further added, with regard to true blessedness and in allusion to the mother of our Lord (Lk 1, 43): He replied, “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it” (11, 28).

Nobody both outside and inside the visible One Apostolic Catholic Church can ever hope to arrive at the divine truth by relying on his own assumptions. Church dogmas are not formed along this misguided and presumptuous path. Jesus promised to send the Paraclete to his Church for a reason: the mediation of irrevocable truths. These truths cannot be contradicted, since they come from God through the Church. And since what has been revealed to us through the apostolic teaching authority of the Church cannot be contradicted in light of Christ’s promise, one can only presume that some of the Church’s dogmas contradict Scripture which comes from Tradition. Such audacity is normally exposed and laid waste by the contradictions individuals clearly create in the written word: If God had planned our redemption, then he would have had to first plan our fall from his grace. Yet ‘God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good’ (Gen 1, 31). He is not the author of evil! :nope: God planned our salvation antecedent to the fall which freely came about, although God foresaw our disobedience to his displeasure. God let it happen, for he knew that the good would still prevail by his intervention: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers…”

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle (the Virgin Mary) was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hyppolytus (ante A.D. 235)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[eigerhar]

The question is nearly heretical.

Following catholic doctrine of original sin the original sin resides NOT in the nature, but in the loss of the supernatural gifts (especially habitual grace).

So there doesn’t exist a fallen nature!!
(For M. Luther the nature of man is fallen)

No nature is fallen.

So you understand how Mary was preserved from original sin.
And you understand why not everyone gets this GRACE.

 

[Ignatius]

If Mary was conceived without sin did she still bare the effects of original sin?

She was cleansed from the effects of original sin by a specific act of God. And, yes, Mary did have a fallen human nature but was preserved from all sin by a miraculous infusion of Gods’ grace. Remember, She had a special situation that no other human being has or can have. When she was carrying the baby Jesus in her womb, The saving Blood of Jesus Christ was coursing through her veins.

 

[rinnie]

Okay lets go this way, since nothing else is working. Where in the bible does it say MARY IS A SINNER. Not Man just Mary. Where does it say the son of God will be born to a women who is full of sin. Where does it say she is no different from you and I. She is a sinner , God picked a sinner to bare his son. Lets go that route. Now you have put the proof on us, now let us put it one you. Show me in scripture where it singles out Mary as a sinner. We proved our Point Full of Grace, BLesed among women, Mary you have found favor with GOd. That is when the bible refers to Mary alone, now you show me one place where it says Mary you are a sinner like everyone else. you are not Blessed among women you are just like everyone else, you have found favor with GOd but so has everyone else, Your turn,

 

[Joero]

They could not be able to find it in the bible for there is none explicitly. For us also, Catholics, there is no explicit statement in the bible that says Mary is sinless. The term " full of grace " is not acceptable by the none catholics.

 

[Thing]

The standard reply seems to be from Romans saying all people are sinners.

They seem to think this means all men must be sinners.
Regardless of what their Lord may have to say. The Lord must obey these people, they tie His hands.
So, all people are sinners.
But my question following this was, are the people living in heaven sinners?
And the answer I never get is, ‘no, the people living in heaven are sinless’.
So again, are all people sinners?
The answer now must be no.
Why?
Because a change was wrought in people by Christ, at the moment of His death in fact, everything changed.
A person who was dead for 10,000 years now had Life as a sinless person in Christ.
A person born in 2008 could hope to have His sacrifice applied to him and become a sinless person in heaven.

So there are sinless people living, people living in heaven are sinless.
They were made or caused to be sinless at some point in their existance.
It is Christ who has the power to cause this practical change from sinful to sinless and He has the power to apply it to His people throughout time, - past, present, and on into the future.
He applies it to Himself, in His own case being fully human, what should be from birth, sinfull, never was.
Or in the case of Adam and Eve where people were created by Him without sin.
Or in our own case, where one reason for our being, and the very reason for Christs sacrifice, is to restore us to Life, that is, for us to have a ‘sinless existance’.
That was and is Christs mission, to restore what was lost whether the people who benefit lived in the past 10,000 years ago or whether they will live in the future and are not born yet they must all, and have been, at some point transformed into ‘sinless creatures’.
The point at which the Mother of God was ‘transformed’ or ‘saved’ was the point of her creation, as the woman who would carry her Saviour.

 

[Joero]

In the Old Testament, there is only one man whom I know sinless in the sight of God which I used to refute the allegation by the none catholics that all men have sinned ( of course except Jesus Christ). A very explicit statement though but in Deuterocanonical books (Apocryphal books to none catholics).

In Wisdom 10: 5 - it says " …Wisdom recognized a righteous man and kept him innocent in God’s sight."

The Bible commission referred this verse to Abraham.

The word “innocent” in Funk & Wagnall’s Standard Desk Dictionary Vol 1 says the meaning that " Not tainted with sin, evil, or moral wrong ; pure."

 

[Joero]

Mostly, the none catholics would refer Luke 1: 47 that says “and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior " for which they would make a conclusion that the BVM was sinful because she was being saved. We don’t deny that because the posterity of Adam & Eve, all mankind, are really tainted by the original sin (Romans 5: 12).
Early theologians called the redemption of the BVM “redemptio praeservativa” and it should be on the moment of her conception not on the stage wherein angel Gabriel told her that " the Spirit of God will overshadow you”, because it would mean that before the pronouncement of the angel, the BVM was sinful. It would be a contradiction of the Holy Scripture that the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross erases all sins of mankind, for which He is called " The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" (John 1: 29).

In Romans 8: 29 it says " Those whom God had already chosen He also set apart to become like His Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers."

This passage presupposes that there are people chosen by God to be like His Son. Of course, not like a God but as holy like Christ, without the stain of sin.
If the Holy Scripture spoke of a certain man, specifically Abraham, to be sinless in the eyes of God, then there is a 100 % possibility that the BVM was born into this world without the stain of sin for the purpose of our salvation through Christ’s incarnation.
The manifestation of God’s love to all mankind.

 

[emeraldisle]

If the Holy Scripture spoke of a certain man, specifically Abraham, to be sinless in the eyes of God, then there is a 100 % possibility that the BVM was born into this world without the stain of sin for the purpose of our salvation through Christ’s incarnation.

God reveals to us in His written word that Abraham lied, see Genesis 20.

Lie = Sin = Not sinless

.

 

[rinnie]

Okay let go this way all men have sinned but (of course Jesus Christ). Okay now dont get me wrong, i agree 100%. But of course it does not state that we just believe and have faith correct. Jesus of course if God. But there are some who do not have faith, everything must be proven in the bible, which of course is not possible for the bible itself states all is not written. But if we can believe with faith of course that Jesus Christ is without sin without having to see it it black and white, (written), through faith, why then could our faith also not lead us to assume the Blessed Mother is also without sin. Again it is our faith that also leads us to believe. Why cant faith in GOd and his chosen people be not enough. You see it is Faith that leads the Catholic Religion, we believe without seeing that when God said he would leave us leaders to teach us, and he would always give them the words, We take that on the promise of Jesus, we call that faith, that Jesus told us the truth. You either believe or you dont. that is why we believe in the leaders still today…Its called faith. Faith in Jesus Christ. We to this day know Jesus did not leave us orphans we still have the Pope. We dont need proof we have faith.

 

[clmowry]

Exactly. But that will not stop the next 500 posts.

They could not be able to find it in the bible for there is none explicitly. For us also, Catholics, there is no explicit statement in the bible that says Mary is sinless. The term " full of grace " is not acceptable by the none catholics.

 

[justasking4]

Okay let go this way all men have sinned but (of course Jesus Christ). Okay now dont get me wrong, i agree 100%. But of course it does not state that we just believe and have faith correct. Jesus of course if God. But there are some who do not have faith, everything must be proven in the bible, which of course is not possible for the bible itself states all is not written. But if we can believe with faith of course that Jesus Christ is without sin without having to see it it black and white, (written), through faith, why then could our faith also not lead us to assume the Blessed Mother is also without sin. Again it is our faith that also leads us to believe. Why cant faith in GOd and his chosen people be not enough. You see it is Faith that leads the Catholic Religion, we believe without seeing that when God said he would leave us leaders to teach us, and he would always give them the words, We take that on the promise of Jesus, we call that faith, that Jesus told us the truth. You either believe or you dont. that is why we believe in the leaders still today…Its called faith. Faith in Jesus Christ. We to this day know Jesus did not leave us orphans we still have the Pope. We dont need proof we have faith.

What do you do with passages that warn of false teachers that will come in among you and decieve with their false teachings? We are warned about this for example in 2 Peter 2:1.

Or the mandate to examine everything carefully as in I Thessalonians 5:21?

 

[rinnie]

What do you do with passages that warn of false teachers that will come in among you and decieve with their false teachings? We are warned about this for example in 2 Peter 2:1.

Or the mandate to examine everything carefully as in I Thessalonians 5:21?

That is easy, this is the whole reason Jesus left the Church to Peter, what other reason would he have to have Peter and the Apostles for teachers, the true teachers, he breathed the Holy Spirit upon them and told them What my Father has given me I now give you. THats why we know that we cant be mislead. The whole point is to pass down the way Jesus did,and the apostles, did, read the bible it show you how they began to pass down, It is still going on today, WHat do you think Holy Orders is . ITs proof of continued passing down. Thats how we now we have the right teachers and the right Church. We have it all Apostlic succession, the oral teaching, written and Sacred Scripture. Dont you ever wonder why the RCC is the only church that does. That is how you know the true church it must have everything. The Catholic CHurch is the only CHurch on earth that does. Thats because Jesus started it and promised the gates of hell… Now doesnt it start to make sense. See how it all ties into together.

 

[Joero]

God reveals to us in His written word that Abraham lied, see Genesis 20.

Lie = Sin = Not sinless

.

It was just necessary for Abraham to tell to Abimelech that Sarah was his sister, which indeed was true because Sarah was the daughter of Abraham’s father but not of his mother’s, which eventually became the wife of Abraham.
That was the call of the time that Abraham should do it, for Abraham thought that Abimelech and his people have no reverence to God. and he was afraid of the danger that might happen to him and Sarah.

 

[Good_Fella]

What scripture passages imply she was the exception to the rule i.e. being sinless? Does the context of the passages you have in mind support this assertion?

You do realize that the scriptures never assert this i.e." God redeemed her at the moment he fashioned her soul and preserved her free from the stain of original sin"?

See Galatians 4:4—But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
.

Why do you keep raising the same questions we have already discussed in other threads, not that you discuss anything but just make annoying bald assertions? I have no wish to waste my time with you.BTW, you misunderstand Genesis 3, 15 - being outside the Church.

The One Apostolic Catholic Church has asserted Mary’s sinlessness since the first century. Your false Protestant doctrine of Bible Alone is a 16th century invention of the heretic Martin Luther (declared such by the Council of Trent). Jesus commissioned his apostles to build His Church - not write the NT. Paul tells Timothy that “the Church is the pillar and groundwork of the truth” - not the Bible, the NT coming from the Church’s traditional beliefs.

Born of a “woman” is not necessarily ‘Born of a virgin’.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Joero]

Okay let go this way all men have sinned but (of course Jesus Christ). Okay now dont get me wrong, i agree 100%. But of course it does not state that we just believe and have faith correct. Jesus of course if God. But there are some who do not have faith, everything must be proven in the bible, which of course is not possible for the bible itself states all is not written. But if we can believe with faith of course that Jesus Christ is without sin without having to see it it black and white, (written), through faith, why then could our faith also not lead us to assume the Blessed Mother is also without sin. Again it is our faith that also leads us to believe. Why cant faith in GOd and his chosen people be not enough. You see it is Faith that leads the Catholic Religion, we believe without seeing that when God said he would leave us leaders to teach us, and he would always give them the words, We take that on the promise of Jesus, we call that faith, that Jesus told us the truth. You either believe or you dont. that is why we believe in the leaders still today…Its called faith. Faith in Jesus Christ. We to this day know Jesus did not leave us orphans we still have the Pope. We dont need proof we have faith.

If the Holy Scriptures happened not to exist until now, at present times, there would be a very big problem among all other christian churches including the Catholic church. Why? Everybody would be asking anybody, who preached the christian teaching, to give proof to what he preached whether it’s true or not.

 

[rinnie]

If the Holy Scriptures happened not to exist until now, at present times, there would be a very big problem among all other christian churches including the Catholic church. Why? Everybody would be asking anybody, who preached the christian teaching, to give proof to what he preached whether it’s true or not.

Exactly, but how do you believe in the Catholic Church, from the get go because that is all we had, and then turn around and deny them. It just makes no sense does it? It is like you said our teachings that they go by, and yet deny at the same time. Do they not see this. Just because Luther who was a fallen Catholic but a Catholic at one time ( does that not in itself prove again the RCC) yet they will follow this man who admitted turning away from the RCC and tried to change it, whom himself was only a man a very disturbed man if you read up on him, but they folllow him, and turn around and fault us, for following A MAN (THE POPE) WHOM JESUS HIMSELF PROMISED TO LEAVE FOR US. But yet, and here is the part that really blows my mind, it is also written in their bible ( you would think luther would have left that out, like he did many other things) not to follow leaders that turn you away from the church. Which it is in black and white luther in fact did. Go figure.

 

[Joero]

Exactly, but how do you believe in the Catholic Church, from the get go because that is all we had, and then turn around and deny them.

What do you mean, I deny the Catholic church?
Ah, I see! You are not a Roman Catholic! Well, I think there would be a need for another thread for this, for we would be derailiing the OP. I would just quote for you one standard reference ( Internationally Known):

" The Catholic Church…is the divine society founded by Jesus Christ, endowed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. This name denotes the body of the faithful in communion with the Bishop of Rome hence it is often called the Roman Catholic Church. "
( Grollier’s Encyclopedia Vol. 5 pp. 106 )

Do you have an internationally known standard reference that say something like this to your church? ( Just give me the name of the book and the page, please! )

 

[rinnie]

What do you mean, I deny the Catholic church?
Ah, I see! You are not a Roman Catholic! Well, I think there would be a need for another thread for this, for we would be derailiing the OP. I would just quote for you one standard reference ( Internationally Known):

" The Catholic Church…is the divine society founded by Jesus Christ, endowed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. This name denotes the body of the faithful in communion with the Bishop of Rome hence it is often called the Roman Catholic Church. "
( Grollier’s Encyclopedia Vol. 5 pp. 106 )

Do you have an internationally known standard reference that say something like this to your church? ( Just give me the name of the book and the page, please! )

Please go back and read what i read, i was agreeing with you about the church not against the church, please go back and read it again.