did Mary have fallen human nature?

[adam_in_ohio]

So a devout Catholic who follows all the infallible teachings of the Church is a fool? Wouldn’t this person actually be saved?

I didn’t say a devout Catholic who follows all the infallible teachings of the Church is a fool. I said a fool follows blindly.
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”-Heb 11:1 Faith is not what ever that person tells me to believe. If one does not have the slitest clue what one’s church teaches, does that person really have faith in those docterns. We need to at least try to understand our faith, or we may drift away. “Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?”-Heb 2:1-3

 

[emeraldisle]

Please go back and read what everybody already said, you’re questions were already answered, you just refuse to see the truth.

The Truth is in Gods written word and Gods written word says all of humanity is sinful and that includes, you, me and Mary.

But the good news is that Christ died on the cross to save sinners!

.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

Please lists all of the early Christians who were personally taught by the apostles that Mary was the New Eve, and, list all of their writings where they refer to this, or that apostle as having personally taught them this, or that concerning Mary as the New Eve.

Justin (Dialog. cum Tryphone, 100),
Irenaeus (Contra Haereses, III, xxii, 4),
Tertullian (De carne Christi, xvii),
Julius Firmicus Maternus (De errore profan. relig xxvi),
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses, xii, 29),
Epiphanius (Hæres., lxxviii, 18),
Theodotus of Ancyra (Or. in S. Deip n. 11), and
Sedulius (Carmen paschale, II, 28).

 

[brycelaliberte]

The Truth is in Gods written word and Gods written word says all of humanity is sinful and that includes, you, me and Mary.

But the good news is that Christ died on the cross to save sinners!

.

After watching this boil for a little while, I have to jump in.

So, let me deal with each statement in the quote.

The Truth is in Gods written word

There is indeed truth in God’s written word. But nowhere does it say ALL truth.

and Gods written word says all of humanity is sinful

Minus those who obviously aren’t, such as those incapable of understanding right and wrong (the young, the mentally handicapped, etc).

and that includes, you, me

We’re good here.

and Mary

And now we’re wrong.

But before I demonstrate why Mary didn’t sin, and indeed couldn’t have sinned, I must first ask;

Why do you believe Mary sinned? Specifically, why? We’ve been around the Bible plenty enough to know that just because it omits saying something doesn’t mean it’s false.

 

[allhers]

The Truth is in Gods written word and Gods written word says all of humanity is sinful and that includes, you, me and Mary.

But the good news is that Christ died on the cross to save sinners!

.

Thank you for your opinion, please go back and read through the truth of it all now.

 

[VociMike]

Here we go again, was Mary a stillborn baby??

Does “all” mean “all” or doesn’t it?

 

[allhers]

Does “all” mean “all” or doesn’t it?

VociMike, I know you already know this, but for the sake of those who don’t know, this was the perfect place to put this, (if they would go back and read through this thread they would have to agree that this was already answered.)

Paul means that all people are subject to original sin. Mary was also subject to original sin, but God redeemed her from the moment of her conception. Mary’s sinlessness is completely based on the anticipated sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In other words, God let all of us fall into the mud pudddle, and then washed us in baptism. For Mary, God did not let her fall into the mud puddle. But both scenarios are based on Christ’s redemption.

Third, not “all have sinned,” because babies, the mentally retarded, and the senile cannot sin (that is, they are not culpable for their sin).

Fourth, the word “all” in Rom 3:23 in Greek is pantes. It is the same word used in 1 Cor 15:22 where Paul says “all” have died. But we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die; they were assumed into heaven. This means that when Paul says “all” (pantes), he does not mean every single one. In fact, Paul says in Rom 5:19 that “many” were made sinners. This means that when Paul says “all” in regard to sinners, he really means “many.”
again, my source for this:
scripturecatholic.com/mary_qa.html#allhavesinned

 

[ChrisWRIT]

The Truth is in Gods written word and Gods written word says all of humanity is sinful and that includes, you, me and Mary.

Since you’ve previously said before that Jesus didn’t sin (which we all agree on, BTW), the only possibility your claim leaves is that Christ’s incarnation was false – Jesus is He is “mostly God & partially human” but NOT fully God & fully man.

Catholics reject that, because the Bible shows that Jesus is fully God and fully man, & that He did not sin.

As such, the Bible could not claim that “all of humanity is sinful” without including Jesus, or without it being a qualified statement that did not necessarily include “every single human.” (For that matter, it can’t claim that every human committed personal sins either, without contradicting itself.)

Regards,

Chris

 

[adam_in_ohio]

Since you’ve previously said before that Jesus didn’t sin (which we all agree on, BTW), the only possibility your claim leaves is that Christ’s incarnation was false – Jesus is He is “mostly God & partially human” but NOT fully God & fully man.

Catholics reject that, because the Bible shows that Jesus is fully God and fully man, & that He did not sin.

As such, the Bible could not claim that “all of humanity is sinful” without including Jesus, or without it being a qualified statement that did not necessarily include “every single human.” (For that matter, it can’t claim that every human committed personal sins either, without contradicting itself.)

Regards,

Chris

 

[allhers]

Justin (Dialog. cum Tryphone, 100),
Irenaeus (Contra Haereses, III, xxii, 4),
Tertullian (De carne Christi, xvii),
Julius Firmicus Maternus (De errore profan. relig xxvi),
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses, xii, 29),
Epiphanius (Hæres., lxxviii, 18),
Theodotus of Ancyra (Or. in S. Deip n. 11), and
Sedulius (Carmen paschale, II, 28).

and…
here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .
(again, same source I sited above.) Please read it.

 

[emeraldisle]

After watching this boil for a little while, I have to jump in.

So, let me deal with each statement in the quote.

There is indeed truth in God’s written word. But nowhere does it say ALL truth.

All of the Bible is Gods Truth and in the Bible God tells us the Truth that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of sinful humanity.

Minus those who obviously aren’t, such as those incapable of understanding right and wrong (the young, the mentally handicapped, etc).

Was Mary mentally handicapped?

We’re good here.

I’m glad you didn’t say “we’re sinless here”

And now we’re wrong.

Yes tradition is wrong about Mary being sinless because God says she was part of sinful humanity.

But before I demonstrate why Mary didn’t sin, and indeed couldn’t have sinned, I must first ask;

Why do you believe Mary sinned? Specifically, why? We’ve been around the Bible plenty enough to know that just because it omits saying something doesn’t mean it’s false.

I believe what God says in His written word and He says all of humanity is sinful and that includes Mary.

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Since you’ve previously said before that Jesus didn’t sin (which we all agree on, BTW)

I didn’t say Jesus didn’t sin, God said it in His written word!

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

.

 

[allhers]

emeraldisle,
this is what we believe.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are both expressions of divine revelation, and so one is not over the other, but from the same divine Source but expressed through different means or channels. As such, Scripture and Tradition cannot ever be in contradiction. The Church serves the role of properly and authoritatively safeguarding that deposit of Faith, as found in Scripture and Tradition. I would not want to set one above the other, but rather distinguish between the divine revelation itself (Scripture and Tradition) and the Mystical Body of Christ to which this revelation is entrusted.
Here is what Vatican II wrote of this relationship, in Dei Verbum:

1. Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.[6]

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=289949&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2003&Author=&Keyword=Deposit+of+Faith&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=11&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

 

[ChrisWRIT]

I didn’t say Jesus didn’t sin, God said it in His written word!

I agree 100%.

It also says Jesus was fully God & fully man.

That is why it is obvious that your interpretation of Scripture as saying that “all of humanity is sinful” is incorrect.

Otherwise, it would be saying that Jesus did sin, or that Jesus wasn’t really fully God & fully man.

God Bless,

Chris

 

[emeraldisle]

Otherwise, it would be saying that Jesus did sin, or that Jesus wasn’t really fully God & fully man.

Do you not understand what the following verse says about the Lord Jesus?

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

.

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle,
this is what we believe.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are both expressions of divine revelation, and so one is not over the other, but from the same divine Source but expressed through different means or channels. As such, Scripture and Tradition cannot ever be in contradiction.

Tradition is telling us Mary was sinless but tradition is plain wrong according to what God says in His written word.

The Scriptures clearly tell us that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity. Scriptures do not tell us that Mary was sinless but they do tell us that Jesus was sinless.

.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

“He then enumerates those who not only lived without sin, but are described as having led holy lives,— Abel, Enoch, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua the son of Nun, Phinehas, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Joseph, Elisha, Micaiah, Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, Mordecai, Simeon, Joseph to whom the Virgin Mary was espoused, John. And he adds the names of some women,— Deborah, Anna the mother of Samuel, Judith, Esther, the other Anna, daughter of Phanuel, Elisabeth, and also the mother of our Lord and Saviour, for of her, he says, we must needs allow that her piety had no sin in it. We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. 1 John 3:5 Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin while they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? Would it be in the language of our author, or in the words of the Apostle John? I put it to you, whether, on having such a question submitted to them, however excellent might have been their sanctity in this body, they would not have exclaimed with one voice: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us? 1 John 1:8 But perhaps this their answer would have been more humble than true! Well, but our author has already determined, and rightly determined, not to place the praise of humility on the side of falsehood. If, therefore, they spoke the truth in giving such an answer, they would have sin, and since they humbly acknowledged it, the truth would be in them; but if they lied in their answer, they would still have sin, because the truth would not be in them.” -Chapter 42 [XXXVI.]— Augustine of Hippo On Nature and Grace Ch 36:42

 

[brycelaliberte]

All of the Bible is Gods Truth and in the Bible God tells us the Truth that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of sinful humanity.

But ALL of the truth is what I asked. I didn’t ask if the Bible is true, or only partially true.

Was Mary mentally handicapped?

Obviously not, she was the most perfect human (next to Jesus) there ever was, since Eve (hence, the new Eve).

I’m glad you didn’t say “we’re sinless here”

Most definitely not.

Yes tradition is wrong about Mary being sinless because God says she was part of sinful humanity.

Ah, I see. You say tradition. Well, the understanding of Sacred Tradition can be understood from the Scriptures and the Fathers or on Catholic Answers.

I believe what God says in His written word and He says all of humanity is sinful and that includes Mary.

Where does it state this? And on Romans 3:23, it is hyperbole, because all doesn’t mean all in this context.

Mary can’t have sinned because she is the Ark of the New Covenant. Have you heard of this before?

 

[allhers]

Tradition is telling us Mary was sinless but tradition is plain wrong according to what God says in His written word.

The Scriptures clearly tell us that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity. Scriptures do not tell us that Mary was sinless but they do tell us that Jesus was sinless.

.

What is Tradition?

In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.

They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. **It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13). **catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

 

[sandusky]

adam in ohio:

Justin (Dialog. cum Tryphone, 100),
Irenaeus (Contra Haereses, III, xxii, 4),
Tertullian (De carne Christi, xvii),
Julius Firmicus Maternus (De errore profan. relig xxvi),
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses, xii, 29),
Epiphanius (Hæres., lxxviii, 18),
Theodotus of Ancyra (Or. in S. Deip n. 11), and
Sedulius (Carmen paschale, II, 28).

None of these guys is young enough to have been personally “taught their faith by the apostles.”

Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Julius Firmicus Maternus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Theodotus of Ancrya, Sedulius.

allhers:

and…
here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .

(again, same source I sited above.) Please read it.

All are too old to have been personally “taught their faith by the apostles.”