Did Mary have Salvation Assurance ? /// Do we?

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella…

Good answer. I shortened your remarks to highlight several points u make.

Now, since Mary had PERFECT CONFIDENCE in God’s Promises, and had ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY he would not deny her, AS LONG AS SHE DIDN’T DENY HIM…and she prayed continually for the GRACES UNTO PERSEVERANCE to see heaven …then, we can with full confidence conclude Mary enjoyed SALVATION ASSURANCE.

Now, if we too, believe God’s Promises in scripture, have been reborn and FULLY GRACED, as was Mary, and are 4-square devoted to the Master as was Mary, and pray daily for the graces unto Salvation (via Perseverance) ----- can’t we too enjoy Salvation Assurance, like our Spiritual Mother ?

Yes, when in the state of grace, or else we would be doing God a great injustice. But like Mary, we cannot infallibly know and musn’t presume to know whether we will persevere to the end and finally attain our salvation. Having assurance and claiming to have absolute knowledge of an outcome are two different things. And without having knowledge (gnosis), we cannot know for sure. God alone knows what is presently unknown to us. We should keep in mind that presumption is one of the deadly sins against the Holy Spirit, so I doubt Mary presumed anything. Meanwhile, when Mary declared “My spiriit rejoices in God my saviour”, it was in conjunction with “My soul proclaims the glory of the Lord”. By examining our conscience, we can judge for ourselves whether we are in the state of sanctifying grace and worthy of being saved. In her Magnificat, Mary pronounced her words with a clean conscience, so she had good reason to be assured trusting in God’s mercy: “He has mercy on those who fear him.” In faith she knew that God would save her in his mercy as long as she wasn’t proud like the sinner who falls from grace because of his pride. Her boast was in God, not in herself: “He has shown the strength of his arm; he has scattered the proud in their conceit.” Proclaiming that God is our savior through Jesus Christ isn’t necessarily asserting that God has personally saved us. It could also mean that Jesus is the saviour of the entire world who only alone could have reconciled everyone to the Father (Rom 5:11), since God desires that everyone - not exclusively the elect - be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 Jn 2:2). So we musn’t boast to ourselves or to others that we are saved by having been favoured, or believe that we are saved because we deserve to be (1 Cor 4:7), but rather boast in God’s mercy and the means he has provided for us to be saved. To God be the glory! For without God, we can do nothing (Jn 15:5). Our assurance lies not only in God’s mercy, but also in how well we respond to God’s grace merited for us by the passion and death of Christ. Our co-opertion is essential in the divine plan of salvation. We must crucify the flesh and die to ourselves together with our Lord’s crucifixion and death in order to be saved, raising our hearts and minds to things which are above as Christ was raised in spirit when he was lifted high on the cross (Col 3:1-17). Jesus formally reconciled the world to God the Father, but the instrumental application of our salvation depends on how well we have co-operated with divine grace and renounced the flesh and the allurements of this world. Unless our souls magnify the Lord in the state of holiness, we have no cause to rejoice in God our saviour and to boast in God’s mercy in all humility.

May I never boast of anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Galatians 6, 14

He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
1 Peter 2, 24

---

Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.***
1 Corinthians 1, 31

PAX

 

[jcrichton]

The Catholic Church officially teaches that God alone infallibly knows who the elect are and who have been predestined to glory. And as far as I know, Mary is no exception. I doubt Mary expressed absolute certainty about having attained her salvation once and for all, but she certainly had perfect confidence in God’s promises because of her pure faith and hope in God while she was alive. What she was absolutely sure of was that God would never deny her as long as she never denied him. She must have prayed constantly for the graces she was certain would help her get to heaven, and she must have prayed in all humility knowing that without God she could do nothing to please him. What need would there be for Mary to pray if she had already been saved? God’s faithfulness was what Mary was absolutely assured of as all the faithful should be. As long as she was in the state of sanctifying grace, which her conscience would inform her of, she could be assured of being saved at the present moment only by her faith and with a conscious awareness of her dependence on God’s final judgment. If Mary had ever felt totally assured that she was saved, without infallibly knowing, it would have been at the moment of her Dormition after having lived a completely sinless life. For she knew with the certainty of faith that God could not deny her in his absolute righteousness.

Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him.
1 John 3, 21-22

Mary had good reason to have a greater assurance of having been saved than we should by virtue of her divine maternity. God’s actual grace is a persuasive influence, a means to attract us to Him that helps move the soul towards God with our cooperation in tandem with the gifts of the Spirit which we have received. Because of the special love the Son had for the Mother, I believe he assured that she would be persuaded to never say No to God and constantly observe his will. And for his own sake Jesus made sure that his mother would not ever “want” to say No so as to be a worthy mother for him and a worthy spouse of the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her. Mary’s Canticle of Praise may not even have been said by her, but expresses what the nascent Church believed about Mary - that her salvation was infallibly ensured by God because of her predestination to her divine motherhood. The Gospel of Luke was written about eighteen years after Mary’s Dormition and Assumption into heaven. And according to tradition, the apostles did find her tomb empty. They must have believed without having to witness the event that Jesus had taken his mother body and soul into heaven. So in faith the first Christians could have professed a belief that Mary certainly was in heaven. And the evangelist could possibly have drawn on their conviction and expressed it through the voice of Mary, since it is in the imperative mood. Ask any sincere Christian today if they think Mary is saved, and he or she will probably, but fallibly, say Yes. And they might add Because she is Christ’s mother. I am assured that God ensured Mary’s salvation the moment she was conceived, that she was elected in a special way as unique as her Immaculate Conception and the redemption of her body were.

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, power, majesty, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
***Jude 1, 24-25 ***

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the question of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.”
*St. Augustine *

PAX

Hi, Good Fella!

…I’m quite slow (euphemism for lazy) when it comes to reading… could you place a date/link to the quote about St. Augustine?

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Good Fella…

Good answer. I shortened your remarks to highlight several points u make.

Now, since Mary had PERFECT CONFIDENCE in God’s Promises, and had ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY he would not deny her, AS LONG AS SHE DIDN’T DENY HIM…and she prayed continually for the GRACES UNTO PERSEVERANCE to see heaven …then, we can with full confidence conclude Mary enjoyed SALVATION ASSURANCE.

Now, if we too, believe God’s Promises in scripture, have been reborn and FULLY GRACED, as was Mary, and are 4-square devoted to the Master as was Mary, and pray daily for the graces unto Salvation (via Perseverance) ----- can’t we too enjoy Salvation Assurance, like our Spiritual Mother ?

I think the answer lies in the quote from St. Augustine… it is not that the Virgin Mary was able to achieve things on her own but that she was granted “fullness” of Grace… we, as hard as we might, have not been granted the same privilege… and the undoing is not God’s Making (removing or taking away our Salvation/Assurance) but it is our own undoing each time that we succumb to the flesh:

16 Instead, I tell you, be guided by the Spirit, and you will no longer yield to self-indulgence. 17 The desires of self-indulgence are always in opposition to the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are in opposition to self-indulgence: they are opposites, one against the other; that is how you are prevented from doing the things that you want to. 18 But when you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20 the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21 factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:16-21)

…so we are to walk by the Spirit (live filled by the Holy Spirit) if we are to obtain Salvation (which is Eternal and hidden in Christ)… note that St. Paul never spoke of his confidence in “assurance of Salvation” but that he fought the good fight and that he ran the race to the fullness of victory… the target was always Christ not a personal knowledge of Eternal Salvation nor the Assurance of Salvation… to him Christ was the target both in life and death:

8 while we are alive, we are living for the Lord, and when we die, we die for the Lord: and so, alive or dead, we belong to the Lord. 9 It was for this purpose that Christ both died and came to life again: so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:8-9)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

The idea of being once-saved-always-saved did not comprise the doctrines of the early Church in post-apostolic time and is foreign to the Gospel. I doubt Mary would have received the spirit of error. When she consented to be the mother of Jesus at the Annunciation, she said, “Let it be done to me according to your word.” And when she heard the word of God, she pondered it in her heart.

"Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it."
Luke 11, 28

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor you loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be made (judged) imperfect in the last time.”
Didache 16 (A.D. 90)

[cf. Mt 25:1-13; Jn 15:1-10; Rom 11:20-23; 13:11; 1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 6:1; Gal 4:9; Heb 2:1; Phil 2:12;1 Tim 1:5-6; Jas 5:19-20; 1 Pet 1:14; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 Jn 1:7.]

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men (believers and non-believers); for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God; for 'cannot he that falls rise again, and he may attain to God? ’ "
St. Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D. 110)

[cf. Joel 2:13; Lk 13:3; 15:11-32; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; 19:18; 2 Cor 7:9-11;1 John 1:9; Rev 2:5; 3:3; 3:19.]

“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostasized from God of his own free will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apsotasy, by means of such men, the Lord bringing judgment upon him as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.”
St. Justin Martyr (d. A.D.156)

[cf. Mt 18:14; Acts 7:51; Rom 5:6, 18; 1 Cor 10:13; 2 Cor 5:14-15; Gal 5:4; 1 Tim 1:5-6; 2:6; 5:15; Jas 1:13-14]

Say good-bye to the false Protestant doctrine of Double-Predestination!

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from his stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with interest [usury]; and from those to whom He had given most shall he demand most. We must not, therefore, as that presbyter (a false teacher) remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time (sinnners), but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance that after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed He also spare not thee, who when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fastness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of that fastness.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 180)

***[cf. Mt 7:21; 22:1-14; 25:14-30; Lk 12:42-46; 1 Cor 9:25; Col 1:23; Heb 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18; Rev 3:5,11.] ***

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi, Good Fella!

…I’m quite slow (euphemism for lazy) when it comes to reading… could you place a date/link to the quote about St. Augustine?

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel

My pleasure.

Nature and Grace 4, 2 [36]

Maranatha!

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, when in the state of grace, or else we would be doing God a great injustice. But like Mary, we cannot infallibly know and musn’t presume to know whether we will persevere to the end and finally attain our salvation. Having assurance and claiming to have absolute knowledge of an outcome are two different things. And without having knowledge (gnosis), we cannot know for sure. God alone knows what is presently unknown to us. We should keep in mind that presumption is one of the deadly sins against the Holy Spirit, so I doubt Mary presumed anything. Meanwhile, when Mary declared “My spiriit rejoices in God my saviour”, it was in conjunction with “My soul proclaims the glory of the Lord”. By examining our conscience, we can judge for ourselves whether we are in the state of sanctifying grace and worthy of being saved. In her Magnificat, Mary pronounced her words with a clean conscience, so she had good reason to be assured trusting in God’s mercy: “He has mercy on those who fear him.” In faith she knew that God would save her in his mercy as long as she wasn’t proud like the sinner who falls from grace because of his pride. Her boast was in God, not in herself: “He has shown the strength of his arm; he has scattered the proud in their conceit.” Proclaiming that God is our savior through Jesus Christ isn’t necessarily asserting that God has personally saved us. It could also mean that Jesus is the saviour of the entire world who only alone could have reconciled everyone to the Father (Rom 5:11), since God desires that everyone - not exclusively the elect - be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; 1 Jn 2:2). So we musn’t boast to ourselves or to others that we are saved by having been favoured, or believe that we are saved because we deserve to be (1 Cor 4:7), but rather boast in God’s mercy and the means he has provided for us to be saved. To God be the glory! For without God, we can do nothing (Jn 15:5). Our assurance lies not only in God’s mercy, but also in how well we respond to God’s grace merited for us by the passion and death of Christ. Our co-opertion is essential in the divine plan of salvation. We must crucify the flesh and die to ourselves together with our Lord’s crucifixion and death in order to be saved, raising our hearts and minds to things which are above as Christ was raised in spirit when he was lifted high on the cross (Col 3:1-17). Jesus formally reconciled the world to God the Father, but the instrumental application of our salvation depends on how well we have co-operated with divine grace and renounced the flesh and the allurements of this world. Unless our souls magnify the Lord in the state of holiness, we have no cause to rejoice in God our saviour and to boast in God’s mercy in all humility.

May I never boast of anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Galatians 6, 14

He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
1 Peter 2, 24

---

Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.***
1 Corinthians 1, 31

PAX

…we must also put into context Mary’s words:

48 because he has looked upon the humiliation of his servant. Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed, (St. Luke 1:48)

…the Virgin Mary is an instrument of the Holy Spirit as she is called to prophesy about God’s Prowess and His Gifts–one of which is marking her in Time so that the Incarnation of the Word may forever remain Patent!

Maran atha!

Angel

49 for the Almighty

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Good Fella,

You are so right! :thumbsup:I really do think that the heresy of Double Predestination was totally unknown to the Church before Calvin invented it in the 16th Century. I do not think anyone in the 1st Century was trouble with such nonsense - mainly because it did not exist.

The issue of Mary being selected by God - not because of any merit that Mary had - but simply because God’s Good Pleasure selected Mary - and that by itself is sufficient reason. Mary was filled with God’s Grace - but, her’s was not a life of carefree bliss and earthly pleasure - rather, Mary, the Mother of God is also known as the Mother of Sorrows (catholictradition.org/Mary/sorrows.htm )

The idea I have about OSAS or Assurance of Salvation - a Protestant heresy - has no place and no context with the Blessed Mother. It also has no context for us, either. Anyone interested in the fate of those who shout, “Lord! Lord!” but do nothing should re-examine the lessons Christ taught in Matthew 25: usccb.org/bible/matthew/25

God bless

Protestant doctrine of Double-Predestination!

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from his stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with interest [usury]; and from those to whom He had given most shall he demand most. We must not, therefore, as that presbyter (a false teacher) remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time (sinnners), but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance that after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from his kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed He also spare not thee, who when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fastness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of that fastness.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 180)

***[cf. Mt 7:21; 22:1-14; 25:14-30; Lk 12:42-46; 1 Cor 9:25; Col 1:23; Heb 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18; Rev 3:5,11.] ***

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

You are so right! :thumbsup:I really do think that the heresy of Double Predestination was totally unknown to the Church before Calvin invented it in the 16th Century. I do not think anyone in the 1st Century would trouble with such nonsense - mainly because it did not exist.

The issue of Mary being selected by God - not because of any merit that Mary had - but simply because God’s Good Pleasure selected Mary - and that by itself is sufficient reason. Mary was filled with God’s Grace - but, her’s was not a life of carefree bliss and earthly pleasure - rather, Mary, the Mother of God is also known as the Mother of Sorrows (catholictradition.org/Mary/sorrows.htm )

What gives any of us absolute assurance of being saved is the efficacy of divine Grace. But God has granted each human being sufficient grace to direct the will towards what is morally good as opposed to what is morally evil. So each human being can determine for himself whether he will do what is good or what is not good according to his knowledge. I agree with St. Augustine that evil is not a positive force that objectively exists in its own right. Rather it is the privation of goodness which freely arises in creation and God allows out of respect for that freedom. Because God is good, he does not coerce. In his goodness, God has given us the capacity to love, which is good, but once that love becomes inordinate on account of our selfishness and an immoderate love of self, what is evil or not good transpires, originating from within us and manifesting itself by our free acts. The influence of God’s actual graces helps to persuade us not to be selfish which we are by nature. Without this actul grace that we cooperate with we could never hope to do anything unselfish that would justify us in God’s sight. In contemporary neo-classic process theology original sin is just that: a natural selfishness innate within us. So in some mysterious way, God must intervene and influence us by way of persuasion not to be selfish and to do what is righteous in his sight contrary to our human nature and in opposition to our natural instincts. Even the fundamental elements of the created universe right down to the atom mechanically function out of self-interest for a purpose which is good, but when the interest of one element freely encroaches upon that of another by chance within divine providence and with God’s permittance, not his approval, or else God would be the author of evil, what we would questionably call evil (i.e., a fatal earthquake) transpires. It is because creation is essentially good, although not totally corrupt but imperfect unlike God himself, that goodness can emerge and reassert itself in the wake of a disruption in nature or a human tragedy and thereby claim a victory in battle over and over again. This victory will be once and for all through God’s intervention when Christ returns in glory and the univerese is re-created in some new mysterious way. Hence, original goodness (an historical paradise in the classic paradigm) is that which exists before a deviation from the right path freely occurs by chance. But all that God has providentially allowed so far is for a greater good. God is physically responsible for the privation of goodness, but not morally indictable. He cannot be the author of our misdeeds because of the sufficient grace he has endowed us with to enable us to prefer right over wrong. Unfortunately, because of our self-interest, which is essentially good, we violate the self-interest of others by our own free will, distorting what is right which is wrong: self-interest is no longer good through our own misguided selfish intentions and acts. In any event, by God’s intervention, Mary was fashioned so that she wouldn’t be selfish by nature. She was sanctified and justified in view of the merits of Christ at the first instance of conception. But God continued to act as a persuasive influence in her life so that she would always want to say Yes to his will. Thus her salvation was absolutely assured by God himself who made sure that the mother of his Son would never fall from his grace, once she had reached the self-conscious age when pride sets in and imposes itself on our unselfishness. Mary was still a self-determining creature like ourselves, although unselfish by nature through God’s intervention, just as we in our self-determination and selfish nature can be unselfish only by his grace. Perhaps this is what Mary meant when she said to Bernadette at Lourdes: ***“Je suis l’Immaculee Conception.” ***

“A Virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.”
St. Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6:11 (ante A.D. 446)

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.”
St. Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the Feast of the Asssumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650)

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
***Genesis 3, 1 ***

"It is what comes out of a person that defiles."
Mark 7, 20

Maranatha!

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Good Fella,

You are so right! :thumbsup:I really do think that the heresy of Double Predestination was totally unknown to the Church before Calvin invented it in the 16th Century. I do not think anyone in the 1st Century was trouble with such nonsense - mainly because it did not exist.

The issue of Mary being selected by God - not because of any merit that Mary had - but simply because God’s Good Pleasure selected Mary - and that by itself is sufficient reason. Mary was filled with God’s Grace - but, her’s was not a life of carefree bliss and earthly pleasure - rather, Mary, the Mother of God is also known as the Mother of Sorrows (catholictradition.org/Mary/sorrows.htm )

The idea I have about OSAS or Assurance of Salvation - a Protestant heresy - has no place and no context with the Blessed Mother. It also has no context for us, either. Anyone interested in the fate of those who shout, “Lord! Lord!” but do nothing should re-examine the lessons Christ taught in Matthew 25: usccb.org/bible/matthew/25

God bless

Hi, Tom!

I concur! …what really puzzles me is that we do not find in any of the Sacred Scriptures this personal concern with “I’m Saved cause…” or “I’ve been granted assurance of my Salvation…”

We find that the whole body of Believers were concerned with Preaching the Gospel (Salvation in Christ Jesus) and not worrying/preaching about a meal-ticket ("I’m Saved/assured of being Saved); even the Virgin Mary, the one person with the in-side know, did not behave as though she had some special merits or acreditation… did you get her stubborness at the wedding of Cana? …there’s Christ… not quite ready to get His Ministry public and Mary simply relies on her knowledge that He can do ANYTHING! …still, she remained humble and obedient till the end! Sadly, the same cannot be said of those whose main concern is preaching how welloff they are because they have tapped onto some formula that guarantees their Salvation/gives them assurance of their Salvation–wow, talk about cutting out the middle man (Holy Spirit)! :bigyikes:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi, Tom!

I concur! …what really puzzles me is that we do not find in any of the Sacred Scriptures this personal concern with “I’m Saved cause…” or “I’ve been granted assurance of my Salvation…”

We find that the whole body of Believers were concerned with Preaching the Gospel (Salvation in Christ Jesus) and not worrying/preaching about a meal-ticket ("I’m Saved/assured of being Saved); even the Virgin Mary, the one person with the in-side know, did not behave as though she had some special merits or acreditation… did you get her stubborness at the wedding of Cana? …there’s Christ… not quite ready to get His Ministry public and Mary simply relies on her knowledge that He can do ANYTHING! …still, she remained humble and obedient till the end! Sadly, the same cannot be said of those whose main concern is preaching how welloff they are because they have tapped onto some formula that guarantees their Salvation/gives them assurance of their Salvation–wow, talk about cutting out the middle man (Holy Spirit)! :bigyikes:
Angel

My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing. If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like the wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; for the doubter being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 1, 2-8

And for convenience sake these Christians argue that those believers who do eventually fall and renounce their faith never had faith to begin with - the hidden premise being that by initially having actual faith you are saved and remain saved. Actual faith is something permanent. This kind of reasoning just begs the question. When the apostles exhorted all believers to remain steadfast in the faith, they drew no such distinction between a genuine faith and a counterfeit faith. And there is no reason to believe that they presumed such a distinction characterized their congregations. For them faith was faith, and that was it. One either had a strong faith, a mediocre faith, or a weak a faith: a single or double-minded faith, a sufficient or deficient faith, a faith that was either stable or unstable - but nevertheless faith in and of itself. But it’s true that as long as the believer has faith and conducts his life in the obedience of faith he is saved, while still going through the process of being saved. Salvation is finally attained at the end of his life after having persevered to the end with the help of God’s grace and immediately after death at his particular judgment. Even though God infallibly ensured Mary’s salvation, she, too, had to grow in perfection as she spiritually matured and acquired a deeper understanding of God through knowledge and experience. Our sanctification and justification are an on-going process as is our salvation while we are still on earth. This means that God does not desire that we rely strictly on Christ’s work on the cross and putting our faith in his merits, which we should profess nonetheless. Recall the words of the rich young man who asked Jesus: “What must I do to have eternal life?” Our Lord never told him that he didn’t have to do anything on his part. Meanwhile this man had already put his faith in Jesus, whom he called “Good master.” At Cana our Lord was prompted to perform his first miracle and begin his public ministry in the shadow of the cross by Mary’s humble act of faith in a spirit of charity. She, too, understood that her faith in Jesus was futile unless it was put into action. Our Blessed Mother is certainly the prototype of the Church as John wished we should understand when he wrote this narrative.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can that faith save you? … So faith by itself is dead, if it has no works."
James 2, 14-15

Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” … "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
***Matthew 19, 16-17 ***

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
John 15, 12

Maranatha

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Good Fella,

Calvin was so depressive, he just could not see good anywhere. So, here we are made in the image and likeness of God - and all Calvin can respond is that we, the sinful children of Adam and Eve, are in totally depravity. And this is how he starts off. For an interesting item on Calin’s TULIP: kingmessiahproject.com/calv_main.html

The entire concept of Assurance of Salvation only makes sense if strip God’s Word of all meaning and then insert your own. Calvin was a clever lawyer who did just that! And, of course, Calvin had to relieve us of the burden of Free Will - we just can not chose. Then there is Divine Lottery where there are only a few winning numbers (souls) - and the rest of God’s beautiful creation are sent to Hell and had no other opportunity to go to heaven. There really is no way to grasp Assurance of Salvation or OSAS without looking at its prime aruthor - John Calvin. When you stop and think about it - Calvin was indeed quite fortunate, in that he KNEW he was saved no matter what he did! Of course he had some doubts about some of his followers! ;-0

Now, I do not want you to think that Calvi was all bad! He never renounced his infant baptism (and, as a leading Protestant - that is curiously refreshing!) and, he had a genuine respect and devotion to Our Lady (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin’s_views_on_Mary)

And, into this moral quagmire - some are wondering if they will find the Blessed Virgin Mary? Perish that thought. Not even Calvin had that thought.

God bless

What gives any of us absolute assurance of being saved is the efficacy of divine Grace. But God has granted each human being sufficient grace to direct the will towards what is morally good as opposed to what is morally evil. So each human being can determine for himself whether he will do what is good or what is not good according to his knowledge.

 

[brb3]

Hi, Good Fella,

Calvin was so depressive, he just could not see good anywhere. So, here we are made in the image and likeness of God - and all Calvin can respond is that we, the sinful children of Adam and Eve, are in totally depravity. And this is how he starts off. For an interesting item on Calin’s TULIP: kingmessiahproject.com/calv_main.html

The entire concept of Assurance of Salvation only makes sense if strip God’s Word of all meaning and then insert your own. Calvin was a clever lawyer who did just that! And, of course, Calvin had to relieve us of the burden of Free Will - we just can not chose. Then there is Divine Lottery where there are only a few winning numbers (souls) - and the rest of God’s beautiful creation are sent to Hell and had no other opportunity to go to heaven. There really is no way to grasp Assurance of Salvation or OSAS without looking at its prime aruthor - John Calvin. When you stop and think about it - Calvin was indeed quite fortunate, in that he KNEW he was saved no matter what he did! Of course he had some doubts about some of his followers! ;-0

Now, I do not want you to think that Calvi was all bad! He never renounced his infant baptism (and, as a leading Protestant - that is curiously refreshing!) and, he had a genuine respect and devotion to Our Lady (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin’s_views_on_Mary)

And, into this moral quagmire - some are wondering if they will find the Blessed Virgin Mary? Perish that thought. Not even Calvin had that thought.

God bless

Hey guys …

Topic was directed to Catholics, those who have been fully graced via baptism, confirmation …and who keep their full focus on Christ, following all his commandments & bearing good fruits, befitting their highcalling ’ in Christos’…not falling back into mortal sins.
Now, if they continue in faith of the fathers & gracious works, pray daily for grace unto perseverance, and CLAIM all the promises of Christ in scripture ( regarding his promise to never forsake his children) and receive the Eucharist on frequent basis, …can they have and retain assurance that they will be able to persevere & see the Kingdom ?

 

[guanophore]

Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?

Yes, it would be inappropriate. As St. Paul teaches us:

Phil 3:12-16

12** Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect**; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only** let us hold true to what we have attained. **

We are not to have an attitude of “already having obtained” or being “already perfect”, but we are to lay hold of that which has laid hold of us, and to hold fast to what we have attained.

So the more Catholic way to say it would be the same way that Mary did “God my savior” is present tense, not future tense. There are some aspects of our salvation that are already completed in baptism, and as we grow in faith, we are working out our salvation. We are to hold fast to what we have attained, but not to get ahead of ourselves.

 

[guanophore]

Hey guys …

Topic was directed to Catholics, those who have been fully graced via baptism, confirmation …and who keep their full focus on Christ, following all his commandments & bearing good fruits, befitting their highcalling ’ in Christos’…not falling back into mortal sins.
Now, if they continue in faith of the fathers & gracious works, pray daily for grace unto perseverance, and CLAIM all the promises of Christ in scripture ( regarding his promise to never forsake his children) and receive the Eucharist on frequent basis, …can they have and retain assurance that they will be able to persevere & see the Kingdom ?

If we live such a life, yes, we can trust in His very great and precious promises. But there is no assurance that we will be able to persevere in faith. As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we can fall from grace, and our last state may be worse than the first.

As St. Paul directs, we are to forget wahat lies behind (not contemplate our former sins or way of life) and “strain forward” to what lies ahead, fighting the good fight, pressing on to the upward call, and finish the race.

Eachh day that we can remain in Christ, we have assurance that we are pressing on to the upward call.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3,

Thanks for the reminder - maybe I wasn’t clear … so, let me try again…

The basic problem with the OSAS and AoS heresy is that is assumes that one knows while on earth that they will remain forever faithful to the Grace of God. No one can know the future - and this is the basic delusional thinking Calvin tried to foist on others. Unfortunately, some bought into this - and for a group that totally endorses Sola Scriptura - well - tht only works if the verses that refute such traditions of men are omitted.

For those who welcomed into Heaven - either directly or via a Post-Purgatory sojourn - we can look back and say, through my Free Will - enabled by the Grace of God, I chose God over self. Prior to this blessed event - all we can do is engage the virtue of Hope - rather then Calvin’s view of applied presumption.

When it comes to considering our Blessed Mother, Luke captured some tremendous insights into the early life of Christ, His Mother, and their relatives. Notice the humility in Mary’s statement. After having read quite a bit of Calvin in college - humility is not the virtue that comes to my mind in describing him. Look at Mary’s amazing charity by going a distance to visit her pregnant cousin and help with the delivery of St. John the Baptist. Mary was there for Jesus, for Elizabeth, for John the Baptist - and at the Cross when Christ gave her to John the Evangelist to be his Mother - and by extension - the Mother of the Church - she is there for us today.

Ultimately, there is no evidence in any of Scripture that she was of the OSAS crowd. her statement, made to Elizabeth and recorded in Luike, was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - as was Elizabeth’s who identified her as the Mother of God. Calvin’s focus has no place in any of this - besides, he was wrong.

Now, did that clear things up?

God bless

Hey guys …

Topic was directed to Catholics, those who have been fully graced via baptism, confirmation …and who keep their full focus on Christ, following all his commandments & bearing good fruits, befitting their highcalling ’ in Christos’…not falling back into mortal sins.
Now, if they continue in faith of the fathers & gracious works, pray daily for grace unto perseverance, and CLAIM all the promises of Christ in scripture ( regarding his promise to never forsake his children) and receive the Eucharist on frequent basis, …can they have and retain assurance that they will be able to persevere & see the Kingdom ?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Great post!

He who perseveres to the end will be saved. Those who shout, ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do nothing else (Matthew 25) will come to an infernal end.

God bless

If we live such a life, yes, we can trust in His very great and precious promises. But there is no assurance that we will be able to persevere in faith. As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we can fall from grace, and our last state may be worse than the first.

As St. Paul directs, we are to forget wahat lies behind (not contemplate our former sins or way of life) and “strain forward” to what lies ahead, fighting the good fight, pressing on to the upward call, and finish the race.

Eachh day that we can remain in Christ, we have assurance that we are pressing on to the upward call.

 

[jcrichton]

My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing. If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like the wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; for the doubter being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
James 1, 2-8

And for convenience sake these Christians argue that those believers who do eventually fall and renounce their faith never had faith to begin with - the hidden premise being that by initially having actual faith you are saved and remain saved. Actual faith is something permanent. This kind of reasoning just begs the question. When the apostles exhorted all believers to remain steadfast in the faith, they drew no such distinction between a genuine faith and a counterfeit faith. And there is no reason to believe that they presumed such a distinction characterized their congregations. For them faith was faith, and that was it. One either had a strong faith, a mediocre faith, or a weak a faith: a single or double-minded faith, a sufficient or deficient faith, a faith that was either stable or unstable - but nevertheless faith in and of itself. But it’s true that as long as the believer has faith and conducts his life in the obedience of faith he is saved, while still going through the process of being saved. Salvation is finally attained at the end of his life after having persevered to the end with the help of God’s grace and immediately after death at his particular judgment. Even though God infallibly ensured Mary’s salvation, she, too, had to grow in perfection as she spiritually matured and acquired a deeper understanding of God through knowledge and experience. Our sanctification and justification are an on-going process as is our salvation while we are still on earth. This means that God does not desire that we rely strictly on Christ’s work on the cross and putting our faith in his merits, which we should profess nonetheless. Recall the words of the rich young man who asked Jesus: “What must I do to have eternal life?” Our Lord never told him that he didn’t have to do anything on his part. Meanwhile this man had already put his faith in Jesus, whom he called “Good master.” At Cana our Lord was prompted to perform his first miracle and begin his public ministry in the shadow of the cross by Mary’s humble act of faith in a spirit of charity. She, too, understood that her faith in Jesus was futile unless it was put into action. Our Blessed Mother is certainly the prototype of the Church as John wished we should understand when he wrote this narrative.

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can that faith save you? … So faith by itself is dead, if it has no works."
James 2, 14-15

Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” … "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
***Matthew 19, 16-17 ***

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
John 15, 12

Maranatha

Hi, Good Fella!

…we can never exhaust Scriptures… there are treasures hidden in them… such as Christ’s remider that:

“the scripture says: I shall strike the shepherd and the sheep of the flock will be scattered”

…so it seems, according to the “not really believers” or “not saved” or “not of our own” sayers, that Jesus’ Elect Disciples were not really Jesus’ since they all, including John, deserted Jesus at the appointed time…

…a significant passage that derails the fabled theologies is Jesus’ revelation to Simon and the other Disciples that:

28 'You are the men who have stood by me faithfully in my trials; 29 and now I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father conferred one on me: 30 you will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 ‘Simon, Simon! Look, Satan has got his wish to sift you all like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.’ (St. Luke 22:28-32)

…so while Jesus praises His Disciples’ steadfastness and loyalty and reveals that they will share in His Glory He, simultaneously, warns them that Satan sought to destroy them (their Faith) and that He prayed for Simon (Cephas) so that he would not fail and serve as a pillar of strength for the Infant Church (the other Ten–and most likely the fringe discisples)… there goes that security of Salvation with nothing to do but cash in the ticket!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[nitesnake]

Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?

Yes. Because she was (and is) The Ark of the New Covenant. There is no way God would allow the Mother of Christ to ever be stained with sin. No way. She could not carry God Himself in her womb and be capable of sin.

This also brings to mind a common protestant lie that the BVM had other children and that she was not a perpetual virgin. It is apostasy of the worst sort.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Good Fella,

Calvin was so depressive, he just could not see good anywhere. So, here we are made in the image and likeness of God - and all Calvin can respond is that we, the sinful children of Adam and Eve, are in totally depravity. And this is how he starts off. For an interesting item on Calin’s TULIP: kingmessiahproject.com/calv_main.html

The entire concept of Assurance of Salvation only makes sense if strip God’s Word of all meaning and then insert your own. Calvin was a clever lawyer who did just that! And, of course, Calvin had to relieve us of the burden of Free Will - we just can not chose. Then there is Divine Lottery where there are only a few winning numbers (souls) - and the rest of God’s beautiful creation are sent to Hell and had no other opportunity to go to heaven. There really is no way to grasp Assurance of Salvation or OSAS without looking at its prime aruthor - John Calvin. When you stop and think about it - Calvin was indeed quite fortunate, in that he KNEW he was saved no matter what he did! Of course he had some doubts about some of his followers! ;-0

Now, I do not want you to think that Calvi was all bad! He never renounced his infant baptism (and, as a leading Protestant - that is curiously refreshing!) and, he had a genuine respect and devotion to Our Lady (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin’s_views_on_Mary)

And, into this moral quagmire - some are wondering if they will find the Blessed Virgin Mary? Perish that thought. Not even Calvin had that thought.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

…just a little follow up on the Virgin Mary… have you noticed that, while moved by the Holy Spirit, she prophesied that all generations will call her Blessed? …why is it that all those who claim to be faithful “sola” Scriptura Believers ignore God’s Holy Spirit and instead have only dejection, rejection, and disdain for Christ’s (or should I say God’s) Mother?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hey guys …

Topic was directed to Catholics, those who have been fully graced via baptism, confirmation …and who keep their full focus on Christ, following all his commandments & bearing good fruits, befitting their highcalling ’ in Christos’…not falling back into mortal sins.
Now, if they continue in faith of the fathers & gracious works, pray daily for grace unto perseverance, and CLAIM all the promises of Christ in scripture ( regarding his promise to never forsake his children) and receive the Eucharist on frequent basis, …can they have and retain assurance that they will be able to persevere & see the Kingdom ?

…I think that you’ve hit it right on the head: perseverance!

Eternal Life has been Granted in Jesus before Creation (Ephisians 1:3-23)… Believers (not just sayers or listeners but doers of the Word) are Assured Salvation if they persevere in Jesus (St. John 15:1-10; 3:14-21)… yet, while God’s Salvific Plan Has Been Set from the Beginning and God does not detract His Word, man has yet to live up to God’s Call/Expectations… the Believers may, at any moment, decide, as Lucifer did, to chose themselves rather than God (St. Luke 18:8).

We, mankind, are the weak link!

Maran atha!

Angel