Did Mary have Salvation Assurance ? /// Do we?

[brb3]

If we live such a life, yes, we can trust in His very great and precious promises. But there is no assurance that we will be able to persevere in faith. As long as we are in these mortal bodies, we can fall from grace, and our last state may be worse than the first.

As St. Paul directs, we are to forget wahat lies behind (not contemplate our former sins or way of life) and “strain forward” to what lies ahead, fighting the good fight, pressing on to the upward call, and finish the race.

Each day that we can remain in Christ, we have assurance that we are pressing on to the upward call.

Guanophore, jcrichton, tqualey, Good Fella, et al…

To all the FULLY GRACED CATHOLICS, who have been ‘washed clean’ in blood of Christ via Baptism, and Confirmed by receipt of Holy Spirit, and who have a love and zeal to their Lord, and who commune DAILY & FAITHFULLY with Him in prayer, praise, and deed, …via the H.S. counselor that bonds you to the Lord, just as Mary & the Apostles received from him -----
Now, if you pray daily for Perseverance, as Paul,Mary, and the Apostles did…will the Lord ever forsake u, or not grant u those MANY SALVATION /KINGDOM PROMISES, he made in scripture, given to the writers by divine inspiration ?..provided u continue in faith, receipt of Eucharist, and service … & promptly confess ALL sins to both God and man -----

would u not trust the Lord to grant u final salvation & have FULL ASSURANCE HE WOULD ?

 

[Good_Fella]

Guanophore, jcrichton, tqualey, Good Fella, et al…

To all the FULLY GRACED CATHOLICS, who have been ‘washed clean’ in blood of Christ via Baptism, and Confirmed by receipt of Holy Spirit, and who have a love and zeal to their Lord, and who commune DAILY & FAITHFULLY with Him in prayer, praise, and deed, …via the H.S. counselor that bonds you to the Lord, just as Mary & the Apostles received from him -----
Now, if you pray daily for Perseverance, as Paul,Mary, and the Apostles did…will the Lord ever forsake u, or not grant u those MANY SALVATION /KINGDOM PROMISES, he made in scripture, given to the writers by divine inspiration ?..provided u continue in faith, receipt of Eucharist, and service … & promptly confess ALL sins to both God and man -----

would u not trust the Lord to grant u final salvation & have FULL ASSURANCE HE WOULD ?

If our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.
1 John 3, 21



PAX

 

[brb3]

If our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God.
1 John 3, 21



PAX

Bless u Good Fella…Christ would love & affirm ur answer, now, tomorrow & on ur last day !!

Who else ??

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Not quite.

While it is true that many Protestant groups have found ways to disrespect the Mother of God - this is direct contradiction to their founders - those in the 16th Century who revolted from the Catholic Church. Luther, Calvin and Zwingli had devotions to the BVM. I think Henry VIII did, too - but, I am not sure about that. John Knox did not want any woman in charge of anythig - but, I am only guessing that this disress with females being in charge… and effectively putting limits on him (Queen Mary and Mary Queen of Scots) carried over to the BVM. So, early Protestantism was a mixed bag - but, in that mix were some who had a genuine devotion to Mary - and that should neither be minimized or neglected.

For the most part, today’s Protestant’s have drifted from the beliefs of those who initially revolted - except in one (and only one ) area: the Catholic Church is wrong.

It appears to be in the very nature of Protestantism to protest something - hence, 30,000+ groups, sects, denominations, assemblies, tabernacles, congretations, fellowships - all trying to be the ‘true’ church - and attacking their fellow protesters for falling short of this goal. The very forumla for chaos!

God bless

Hi, Tom!

…just a little follow up on the Virgin Mary… have you noticed that, while moved by the Holy Spirit, she prophesied that all generations will call her Blessed? …why is it that all those who claim to be faithful “sola” Scriptura Believers ignore God’s Holy Spirit and instead have only dejection, rejection, and disdain for Christ’s (or should I say God’s) Mother?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

Bless u Good Fella…Christ would love & affirm ur answer, now, tomorrow & on ur last day !!

*Since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that *whether we wake or sleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5, 8-11

PAX

 

[brb3]

*Since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that *whether we wake or sleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5, 8-11

PAX

Another quote from sacred scripture that supports salvation assurance…as properly understood and claimed by the first century faithful.
Name them, claim them, and live them 24-7 !!! That’s the Catholic claim to SA that will bear fruit and Kingdom reward !

 

[Good_Fella]

Another quote from sacred scripture that supports salvation assurance…as properly understood and claimed by the first century faithful.
Name them, claim them, and live them 24-7 !!! That’s the Catholic claim to SA that will bear fruit and Kingdom reward !

So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11, 20-22**

PAX

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3,

Now, who could argue with the way you have set this up? No one, really.

The problem is you have built this entire argument on:

“Now, if you pray daily for Perseverance…” and, there is the rub…

Notice we are not talking about someone having a book on the table and pushing it to the edge and then past the book’s tipping point and the book falls to the floor. Did you notice there is no ‘if’ in that sentence? The book, table and gravity have no Free Will. The person pushing the book does have Free Will and had freely chosen to push the book. Everything here is totally predictable - given the way I have set this up.

Human nature is changeable - and, that is a constant! Look at Matthew 25 of people who failed at the last (or, were failing throughout their lives). Notice, there are no ending like:

1.) “You were pretty good girls anyway, even though you did not bring oil - come on in!”

2.) “Putting it in the ground is safe - and you did not forget where you put it - come on in!”

3.) “I heard you say, ‘Lord! Lord!’ and you did some good things - come on in!”

And, there is a solid reason why none of those parables end that outrageous way - God expects us to not only act correctly, but to act correctly to the end. While the Good Thief did not give a good example on how to live correctly - he certainly gave a good example on how to die that way!

Rudyard Kipling has an excellent poem dedicated ot “IF” - (here is a link: poemhunter.com/poem/if/ ) and he draws the same concluson on the human level. If we fail to do the right thing consistently, we will fail.

God bless

Guanophore, jcrichton, tqualey, Good Fella, et al…

To all the FULLY GRACED CATHOLICS, who have been ‘washed clean’ in blood of Christ via Baptism, and Confirmed by receipt of Holy Spirit, and who have a love and zeal to their Lord, and who commune DAILY & FAITHFULLY with Him in prayer, praise, and deed, …via the H.S. counselor that bonds you to the Lord, just as Mary & the Apostles received from him -----
Now, if you pray daily for Perseverance, as Paul,Mary, and the Apostles did…will the Lord ever forsake u, or not grant u those MANY SALVATION /KINGDOM PROMISES, he made in scripture, given to the writers by divine inspiration ?..provided u continue in faith, receipt of Eucharist, and service … & promptly confess ALL sins to both God and man -----

would u not trust the Lord to grant u final salvation & have FULL ASSURANCE HE WOULD ?

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi, Brb3,

Now, who could argue with the way you have set this up? No one, really.

The problem is you have built this entire argument on:

“Now, if you pray daily for Perseverance…” and, there is the rub…

Notice we are not talking about someone having a book on the table and pushing it to the edge and then past the book’s tipping point and the book falls to the floor. Did you notice there is no ‘if’ in that sentence? The book, table and gravity have no Free Will. The person pushing the book does have Free Will and had freely chosen to push the book. Everything here is totally predictable - given the way I have set this up.

Human nature is changeable - and, that is a constant! Look at Matthew 25 of people who failed at the last (or, were failing throughout their lives). Notice, there are no ending like:

1.) “You were pretty good girls anyway, even though you did not bring oil - come on in!”

2.) “Putting it in the ground is safe - and you did not forget where you put it - come on in!”

3.) “I heard you say, ‘Lord! Lord!’ and you did some good things - come on in!”

And, there is a solid reason why none of those parables end that outrageous way - God expects us to not only act correctly, but to act correctly to the end. While the Good Thief did not give a good example on how to live correctly - he certainly gave a good example on how to die that way!

Rudyard Kipling has an excellent poem dedicated ot “IF” - (here is a link: poemhunter.com/poem/if/ ) and he draws the same concluson on the human level. If we fail to do the right thing consistently, we will fail.
God bless

Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall.
2 Peter 1, 10

PAX

 

[brb3]

So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11, 20-22**

PAX

Yes, be aways in awe !! As we go thru the 50-100 scriptures that teach us what to avoid, and what to do …
and, … if we heed them and master MORAL SINS … then we can stay safe within the hand of the Lord, …SAFE AND SECURE, in the center of the flock !!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Good Fella,

Forgive my density … but, exactly, what are you in response to these posts - I am really having trouble in following you.

The basic idea is that there is this term ‘Assurance of Salvation’ that you mainly find in Protestant circles - which means that no matter what you do (and continue to do) you have said, “Jesus is my Savior” and that is it: heaven is assured. Such an understanding is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. Now, Jesus did give us an assurance - and this link will spell out what is exactly involved: catholic-defense.com/saved.htm

Now, if your understanding is something different, let me know. Thanks for the clarification.

God bless

Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall.
2 Peter 1, 10

PAX

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3,

I must admit I am really having difficulties with the way you are responding to this thread.

Scripture is not reducable to ‘…the 50-100 scriptures that teach us what to avoid, and what to do…’ Scripture is the communication of God throughout human history and God direct intervention in our salvation by the death of Jesus Christ.

We are to acknowledge that Christ chose to establish His Church on earth and did so by selecting Peter as its foundation. If you are interested in what to do and what to avoid - here is an excellent link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: scborromeo.org/

Finaly, no human is the ‘master’ of MORTAL SIN. We are called to love God with our whole being and our neighbor as ourself. Through our struggle to follow Christ more closely each day we grow in His love. Not only does this Love cast our fear and doubt - there is simply no room for sin.

From my understanding of what you have written, I think there is a real difference of meaning between what you are saying about ‘Assurance’ and the teachings of the Church. Now, if I am mistaken I woud appreciate your clairification using the following link: catholic-defense.com/saved.htm This way I know we are on the same page.

God bless

Yes, be aways in awe !! As we go thru the 50-100 scriptures that teach us what to avoid, and what to do …
and, … if we heed them and master MORAL SINS … then we can stay safe within the hand of the Lord, …SAFE AND SECURE, in the center of the flock !!

 

[brb3]

Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall.
2 Peter 1, 10

PAX

Just another ON POINT scripture FROM OUR PAPA PETER, encouraging us to be zealous in our faith, and ever to persevere…so we don’t fall back and lose our election, high calling IN CHRISTOS.

NO ONE can question Peter, he never spoke in figures, but, called it as it was.

Lets concede, many Protestants misunderstand and mis-state SA, we are not supporting their claims on SA …but, rather the Catholic CORRECT TRUTHS !!

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi, Good Fella,

Forgive my density … but, exactly, what are you in response to these posts - I am really having trouble in following you.

The basic idea is that there is this term ‘Assurance of Salvation’ that you mainly find in Protestant circles - which means that no matter what you do (and continue to do) you have said, “Jesus is my Savior” and that is it: heaven is assured. Such an understanding is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. Now, Jesus did give us an assurance - and this link will spell out what is exactly involved: catholic-defense.com/saved.htm

Now, if your understanding is something different, let me know. Thanks for the clarification.

God bless

Peter doesn’t share the non-Catholic belief that no matter what we do our salvation is assured, as though the attainment of our salvation doesn’t also depend on whether we choose to cooperate with divine grace, in this case the signal grace of apostolic zeal. The verse I quoted is an exhortation, not an unconditional reassurance. Peter does not remind anyone that he is the more zealous and will continue to be, so that he will never fall, as if he can be nothing but more zealous without deciding to be. There would be no reason for the apostle to exhort us to do or be anything by taking responsible action if the instrumental application of our salvation depended solely on a divine decree and the dispensation of an irresistible grace. As long as we grow in perfection by cooperating with divine grace, our salvation is assured. Meanwhile falling from grace and forfeiting our election remains a possibility and can be avoided depending on how diligent we choose to be by freely responding to God’s grace.

PAX

 

[PJM]

=jcrichton;10160881]…being full of grace (kecharitōménē) would that not suggest that the Virgin Mary is Guarded from sin or would the angel’s salutation only mean ‘while you carry the unborn Child-God you are a full of Grace?’

…I’ve heard it being expressed that “kecharitōménē” means something to effect of ‘always and forever being full of Grace;’ the term is claimed to being so encompassing that it is difficult to translate into English (some substituting “favored one;” which to my pedestrian understanding is a far cry from “full of Grace”)–so God’s Grace must have been complete and not just partial… making Mary’s conception “Immaculate.” …or would God’s Grace only function till the Word Incarnate is birthed then the Virgin Mary would cease enjoying God’s Gift?

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

HERE’S THE DEAL ANGEL, IN THE SHORT VERSION [YEA!]

MARY HAD TO BE BORN W/O ANY SIN
**WHY?

Because God is “Perfect”

Because God MUST remain “Perfect”**

Mary HAD TO BE PERFECTED which She was through the merits of her Son [time DOES NOT EXIST for God; everything is "present to Him]

THEN MARY
On Her own; with super-abundant graces being granted to Her; HAD to choose freely [using Her mind; intellect and Freewii] to NEVER=EVER sin. This she did!

She was able to do this By grace; freewill, profound humilty and charity

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

 

[brb3]

Peter doesn’t share the non-Catholic belief that no matter what we do our salvation is assured, as though the attainment of our salvation doesn’t also depend on whether we choose to cooperate with divine grace, in this case the signal grace of apostolic zeal. The verse I quoted is an exhortation, not an unconditional reassurance. Peter does not remind anyone that he is the more zealous and will continue to be, so that he will never fall, as if he can be nothing but more zealous without deciding to be. There would be no reason for the apostle to exhort us to do or be anything by taking responsible action if the instrumental application of our salvation depended solely on a divine decree and the dispensation of an irresistible grace. As long as we grow in perfection by cooperating with divine grace, our salvation is assured. Meanwhile falling from grace and forfeiting our election remains a possibility and can be avoided depending on how diligent we choose to be by freely responding to God’s grace.

PAX

Very well stated, Pope Benedict would be in full agreement !

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Godd Fella,

Thanks for the clarification

God bless

Peter doesn’t share the non-Catholic belief that no matter what we do our salvation is assured, as though the attainment of our salvation doesn’t also depend on whether we choose to cooperate with divine grace, in this case the signal grace of apostolic zeal. The verse I quoted is an exhortation, not an unconditional reassurance. Peter does not remind anyone that he is the more zealous and will continue to be, so that he will never fall, as if he can be nothing but more zealous without deciding to be. There would be no reason for the apostle to exhort us to do or be anything by taking responsible action if the instrumental application of our salvation depended solely on a divine decree and the dispensation of an irresistible grace. As long as we grow in perfection by cooperating with divine grace, our salvation is assured. Meanwhile falling from grace and forfeiting our election remains a possibility and can be avoided depending on how diligent we choose to be by freely responding to God’s grace.

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

Peter doesn’t share the non-Catholic belief that no matter what we do our salvation is assured, as though the attainment of our salvation doesn’t also depend on whether we choose to cooperate with divine grace, in this case the signal grace of apostolic zeal. The verse I quoted is an exhortation, not an unconditional reassurance. Peter does not remind anyone that he is the more zealous and will continue to be, so that he will never fall, as if he can be nothing but more zealous without deciding to be. There would be no reason for the apostle to exhort us to do or be anything by taking responsible action if the instrumental application of our salvation depended solely on a divine decree and the dispensation of an irresistible grace. As long as we grow in perfection by cooperating with divine grace, our salvation is assured. Meanwhile falling from grace and forfeiting our election remains a possibility and can be avoided depending on how diligent we choose to be by freely responding to God’s grace.

PAX

We urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.
2 Corinthians 6, 1

Be on your guard, so that you do not lose what you have worked for, but may receive a full reward.
2 John 1, 8

Mary was further graced the moment she pronounced her fiat and conceived the holy Child in faith working through love. And grace was added upon grace when she visited her kinswoman Elizabeth so that she could charitably take care of her. Mary would have regressed in her pilgrimage of faith if she ignored Elizabeth’s needs and the requirement of her own presence for a lengthy period of time. The grace she had received to be the mother of our Lord would have been in vain if she had resisted the prompting of the Holy Spirit to look after her relative and chose to boast in the special favour God granted her and just leave. Elizabeth’s interest was of more importance to her than her own (Phil 2:4). In fact, looking to Elizabeth’s interest meant hearing the word of God and keeping it. Our own personal interest in being saved hangs in the balance of looking to the personal interests of others. Indeed, James warns us that to avoid doing a good work in charity and grace when the opportunity arises is a sin (4:17), and so a fall from grace, without which we cannot be saved. More was expected of Mary than her consent to be the mother of Jesus to even confirm her call and election to the divine motherhood. And her charity as well as her faith were causative of her salvation - not the result of it - as long as she grew in perfection and did not bury the talent our Lord had given her for the purpose of accumulating sufficient interest. Mary understood she had to work all the more harder to materialize her salvation once she was predestined to the grace she had received. Grace enabled her to grow in holiness, but it was also given her with the divine expectation that she should in collaboration with her free will. God’s expectations of us that we observe and act upon his will would be redundant if he coerced us - indeed programmed us - to act for his good pleasure just to demonstrate to the world and remind us what it means to be saved.

And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
2 Corinthians 9, 8

PAX

 

[guanophore]

…provided u continue in faith

Yes, of course.

would u not trust the Lord to grant u final salvation & have FULL ASSURANCE HE WOULD ?

Yes, we have trust, hope, and confidence in God. It is not He that fails to keep His word, but we, who can forsake Him.

2 Tim 2:11-13
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he will also deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful —
for he cannot deny himself.

As long as we are in these mortal bodies, the possibility exists that we may deny Him.

Another quote from sacred scripture that supports salvation assurance…as properly understood and claimed by the first century faithful.
Name them, claim them, and live them 24-7 !!! That’s the Catholic claim to SA that will bear fruit and Kingdom reward !

Catholicsm is far from the “name it, claim it” modern innovations toward heresy. Please do not try to hybridize the Holy Faith with such inventions that are misleading.

 

[Good_Fella]

Yes, be aways in awe !! As we go thru the 50-100 scriptures that teach us what to avoid, and what to do …
and, … if we heed them and master MORAL SINS … then we can stay safe within the hand of the Lord, …SAFE AND SECURE, in the center of the flock !!

“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.”
John 15, 4

By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked. And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he is revealed you may have confidence and not be put to shame before him at his coming.
1 John 2, 5-6, 28

All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.
1 John 3, 24

*God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. *
1 John 4, 16-18

Yes, it is more a question of what it takes to be saved rather than what it means to be saved. We musn’t put the cart before the mule. We must be faithful in our covenant with the Lord in order to be saved. Our covenant with God is our security as long as we don’t break it.

PAX