Did Mary & Joseph have children?

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Yes, and
the brethren/mothers children of ps69:8 and thier identification in the NT seems clear in John 2:16-18 given the OT quote / fullfillment bolded

Psalm 69: 8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.9 **For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; **and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

John 2: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. 17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. 18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
 
Before answering this question. Please read this explanation to the very end. Also, please do not try to direct me to another Web site. I want to know what YOU think, & when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture, NOT the beliefs of church leaders or the early church fathers. I say this, because since Holy Scripture is Inspired (God breathed), then Holy Scripture CAN’T be wrong, because we KNOW it is from God. Thank you in advance, & I look forward to your responses, & encourage you to carefully consider mine. In Christ, Steve.

Having been raised Catholic & having studied the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that ‘the Word of the Lord’ (the Bible) supports the belief that the ‘brothers & sisters’ of Jesus in Matthew 12:46-50 & Matthew 13:54-57 are Jesus’ half-brothers & sisters, & NOT referring to His disciples, cousins, step-brothers & step-sisters, or ‘spiritual’ brothers & sisters:

First, Matthew 13:54-57 gives us their names: James, Joses (Joseph), Simon, & Judas (Jude). They are clearly brothers, since they are part of a family unit, along with their father, ‘the carpenter’ (Joseph) & Mary, their mother.

Second, at the cross, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (aka: Clopas), who is the mother of James the Less & Joses (Joseph) are mentioned (Matthew 27:55-56; Mark 15:40; John 19:25-27). James is the son of Alphaeus (Matthew 10:3). However, James & Joseph are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, they are ‘not’ the ‘James & Joseph’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, at the cross Salome (Mark 15:40) is the sister of Jesus’ mother (Mary) (John 19:25-27) & the mother of Zebedee’s sons (Matthew 27:55-56). Zebedee’s sons are James & John (Mark 10:35). However, James & John are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, this ‘James’ is ‘not’ the same ‘James’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, since the ‘James’ who is the ‘son of Mary & Zebedee’ & since the ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the sons of ‘Mary & Alphaeus (Clopas)’ are NOT the same ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the brothers of Simon & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57, then these ‘brothers’ in this verse are sons of Mary & Joseph, & are Jesus’ half-brothers.

Fourth, in Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus compares His ‘believing brothers’ by pointing to his disciples INSIDE, with His ‘non-believing brothers’ OUTSIDE (compare to John 7:3-5 & Psalm 69:8).

Fifth, Jesus makes a distinction between His brothers & His BELIEVING disciples (John 2:12).

Sixth, in Acts 1:13-14, Luke names the remaining 11 disciples along with Jesus’ brothers, who are with Mary & the women. Collectively, they are all ‘part’ of the ‘120 brethren’ at Pentecost.

Seventh, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Jesus appears to Cephas (aka: Peter) & then to ‘The 12’ (Disciples)(v.5), then Jesus appears to James, then to all the apostles (v.7). ‘Apostles’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ because ‘apostles’ simply mean ‘messengers’ or ‘sent ones,’ & can refer to people other than ‘The 12,’ such as Barnabas & Paul (Acts 14:14). Therefore, since this ‘James’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ but ‘another James,’ then this ‘James’ is the brother of Joseph, Simon, & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57.

Eighth, these ‘brothers’ in Matthew 13:54-57 aren’t Jesus’ cousins, because the Greek words for ‘cousins’ (‘synggenes’ & ‘anepsios’) used in Luke 1:36 & Colossians 4:10 are not used in Matthew 13:54-57, or anywhere else by Jesus to give us the impression that His ‘brothers’ in this verse are actually His cousins.

Ninth, the Greek word for ‘brothers’ & ‘sisters’ (adelphos & adelphe) can mean LITERAL blood brothers & sisters, such as James the BROTHER (adelphos) of John, & Martha & Mary the SISTERS (adelphe) of Lazarus.

Tenth, Paul names James as ‘the Lord’s brother’ (Galatians 1:19), who is with the other 2 ‘Pillars’ of the Church – Cephas (Peter) & John (Galatians 2:9). This ‘James’ is the brother of Jude (Jude 1:1), who wrote the Epistle of Jude. This ‘James’ went on to write the Epistle of James (James 1:1). This ‘James’ was the leader of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:13), but was not James, the brother of John, because he was already martyred (Acts 12:2). Therefore, this ‘James & Jude (Judas)’ are the same ‘James & Judas (Jude)’ in Matthew 13:54-57, who were also brothers of Joses (Joseph) & Simon, & half-brothers of Jesus.

So, using the Word of the Lord (the Bible), which cannot be wrong, & comparing it to church tradition (which ‘can’ be wrong), the most correct understanding of Jesus’ ‘brothers & sisters’ in Matthew 13:54-57 is that they were his LITERAL half-brothers & sisters. Therefore, Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus (Matthew 1:24-25), & then had at least 6 children together (4 sons & at least 2 ‘unnamed’ daughters).
Ok “born again christian”- I first of all wonder what you were born again from. Be that as it may.

Your openning and closing statements have a built in error-sola scriptura.

This is precisely the reason and prime example of why personal interpretations are not good. Who do you appeal to when in doubt?..the Bible? And it wouldn’t exist for another 500+ years!

The 2000+ years of hierarchy and command structure of the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church were established by Jesus Himself. And then He said to Peter, " whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven."

Your question should be, I have this nagging heresy of an error that I can’t shake…will somebody in the Catholic Answers Forum please help me out of my error and heresy?]

Luther and Calvin would be scandalized at the implications you pose concerning the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin, Mother of God.

I surely will not throw pearls to the dogs nor sacred things to the pigs.

Is that biblical enough for ya.
 
For those interested see Papias fragment x
newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

“…(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord’s. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord’s. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphæus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands…”
 
For those interested see Papias fragment x
newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

“…(1.) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2.) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphæus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3.) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4.) Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord’s. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord’s. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphæus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands…”
Thank you for the link!!! This will be a wonderful addition to my studies of the early Fathers of the Church!
 
what is CARM? I’ve seen it mentioned several times on this forum
Their anti-Catholic attitudes made me less than charitable but I spoke the truth … and got booted from their website and havent gone back. They don’t like it when you use Jesus’ own words to make your point, a real problem when they only believe in what the bible says. They all remind me of the Baptist preacher in the Pacwa debate from the 1980s with some Jimmy Swaggert thrown in to boot. Best thing is to leave them alone. They are not interested in learning, only debating. Let them debate themselves as they don’t agree with each other outside of their hatred of the Pope, the Catholic church and Catholics. They don’t really like the Lutherans either. I do pray for them…:signofcross:
 
Thought I’d give this another shot. After taking the time to review some of the replies from my OP & some followup comments, & despite the fact of providing relevant Scripture, & creating a ‘Jesus Family Tree’ based on those Scripture passages, I see that there is still a lot of confusion to who the ‘brothers & sisters’ of Jesus are in Matthew Ch.12 & 13. So, I thought I’d address a few comments that some people have made:
  1. “He’s confusing ‘John’ the brother of James, with John the Baptist, as Jesus’ cousin.”
This is based on the belief that since Mary & Elizabeth were cousins (Luke 1:36), then their sons were also cousins. However, Scripture doesn’t directly come out & say that John the Baptist was Jesus’ cousin. It actually tells us that Elizabeth was a close ‘relative’ (Gr: ‘syggenis’) of Mary (Luke 1:36). This Greek word means ‘relative’ or ‘kinswoman,’ not ‘cousin,’ & is only used once in the Bible. However, some translations use the Greek word (‘syggenes’), which ‘can’ be translated either, ‘of the same kin, related by blood, of the same nation, a fellow countryman, kinsfold, or COUSIN.’ This is why some Bibles use the English word ‘cousin,’ rather than ‘relative’ to describe Elizabeth’s relationship to Mary, which would also make John the Baptist & Jesus ‘cousins.’

However, ‘if’ they were cousins, I am not confusing John the Baptist with John the Beloved disciple of Jesus. As mentioned before, John the Baptist was a cousin of Jesus, because their mothers were cousins. Likewise, James & John - Jesus’ disciples, were also His cousins, because their mothers - Mary & Salome - were sisters, by looking at Matthew, Mark, & John’s accounts of the women at the cross, which I graphed out in the ‘Jesus Family Tree,’ based on those passages. Also, it was James & John’s MOTHER who went to Jesus to ask about placing her sons on either side of Him in His Heavenly Kingdom (Matthew 20:20-21). Salome was hoping that her ‘familial influence’ might help.
  1. “If Jesus had half-siblings, why did He leave His mother in the care of a non-related disciple?”
He didn’t. As previously mentioned, Jesus left His mother in the care of His beloved disciple AND blood-related COUSIN, John. His half-brothers weren’t at the cross, because John 7:5 tells us that they didn’t “believe IN HIM.” In order to be a disciple of Christ, you have to believe in Jesus. Another ward, you can’t have a ‘unbelieving believer.’ Likewise, the rest of His disciples weren’t at the cross (they were hiding behind locked doors), & it is presumed that Joseph was dead, otherwise, Jesus would not have needed to entrust His mother to anyone. So, since Jesus’ ‘spiritually-believing’ AND ‘blood-related unbelieving’ brothers weren’t at the cross, the only man for Jesus to entrust the care of His beloved mother in was His ONLY, truly, faithful disciple AND cousin - John.
  1. “If Jesus had half-brothers who came to Christ later (Acts 1:14), then why didn’t Jesus later entrust Mary to one of them?”
This really begs the question. Being omniscient, obviously, Jesus knew that His half-brothers were going to eventually believe in Him. However, they, like His disciples, weren’t there. So, knowing He was about to die, He needed to place His mother in the care of a trustworthy & faithful man. John was the only one there, so He placed her in the care of John, who was also His COUSIN. There would be no need to ‘change His mind’ later, since she was in the care of a close & faithful FAMILY member.
  1. “If Jesus had younger siblings, then why aren’t they mentioned in the caravan in Luke, when Jesus stayed behind at the Temple?”
The simple answer is that they were simply not mentioned, but were included ‘among His relatives & acquaintances’ (Luke 2:44). The fact Jesus was 12, it is not uncommon in Scripture for younger siblings, who were ‘not of age,’ to not be mentioned by name. In fact, the ‘unnumbered sisters’ of Jesus in Matthew Ch.13 aren’t mentioned by name either, despite His brothers being mentioned by name. The same question could be asked, "If Joseph had children from a previous marriage (who would have been OLDER than Jesus), then why aren’t THEY mentioned in the caravan, or with Mary & Joseph when they find Him at the Temple? Why aren’t they mentioned during Mary & Joseph’s trip to Bethlehem (Matthew 2:4-5)? Or their trip to Jerusalem (Luke 2:22)? Or during their escape to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14)? Or during their return to Nazareth (Matthew 2:19-21)?
  1. "If Mary & Joseph’s children weren’t born yet when Jesus was left behind at the Temple, then James would have been too young to be leader of the Jerusalem Church."
This response comes from the earlier question about “where were Jesus’ siblings when He was left behind at the Temple?” The point of making the comment was to demonstrate that the fact they aren’t mentioned ‘by name’ or ‘by relationship’ in Luke, that doesn’t mean that they weren’t there - it simply means they were there, but Luke didn’t MENTION them, or it could just mean that they weren’t born yet. We have to remember that Jewish women were considered ‘adults’ at 12, & had children by 13 back then. Also, there would be no reason to separate births by 2 years. They didn’t have birth control back then, & since people didn’t live as long as they do now, they started their families early & rapid, since they didn’t live as old as they do now. So, if Mary was pregnant with James, when Jesus was 12, that would have put Mary at about 25, if she gave birth to Jesus at 13. Based on OT Law, Jesus would have went into public ministry at 30, & died at 33. This would have put James at around 21, & unlike today, back then a 21 year old man would have been an ‘adult’ for nearly 10 years. So, James would not have been ‘too young’ to be leader of the Jerusalem Church. Furthermore, I was NOT claiming that Jesus’ half-brothers WEREN’T born yet - just that them not being born yet would not contradict Scripture, nor change it, in explaining where they were when Jesus was left behind at the Temple.
  1. “The ‘James & Joseph’ who are ‘brothers of Jesus’ in Matthew Ch.13 are actually the ‘James & Joseph’ of Mary the wife of Clopas, & are Jesus’ cousins.”
These are 2 completely different ‘James’ & Joseph’s.’ First, the ‘James & Joseph’ in Matthew Ch.13 also have brothers named ‘Simon’ & ‘Judas.’ There are also unnamed/unnumbered sisters there. The ‘James & Joseph’ that are the sons of Alphaeus, have a mother named ‘Mary.’ This ‘Mary’ is described elsewhere in Scripture as ‘the mother of Joseph’ (Mark 15:47) & ‘the mother of James’ (Mark 16:1) but never ‘the mother of Simon & Judas,’ nor described as having ‘daughters.’ So, these are 2 completely different ‘James’ & Joseph’s.’

If they were Jesus’ cousins, Matthew would have either used the Greek word ‘syggenis’ (or ‘syggenes’) or ‘anepsios’ - which are found in the NT (see, Colossians 4:10 for ‘anepsios’). Second, Scripture doesn’t support that this ‘James & Joseph’ are Jesus’ cousins. The brothers of Jesus in Matthew Ch.13 are grouped together in the same sentence with Jesus’ mother & father - Joseph & Mary.
  1. “Since Scripture doesn’t specifically state that Mary & Joseph had 6 children, then then you can’t say for certain they are His half-siblings.”
If a person takes that position, then they have to take that position with EVERY example in Scripture. For instance, Scripture tells us that Peter was the son of John (John 21:15), however, it doesn’t tell us that Peter’s brother (adelphos), Andrew, was his full blood-brother, or if they had the same 2 parents. It is ‘assumed’ they had the same 2 parents. So, since ‘Scripture doesn’t specifically state that they had the exact same parents,’ should we not believe they were full-blood brothers? Likewise, we know absolutely nothing about the parents of Martha, Mary, & Lazarus. Again, it is ‘assumed’ they had the same 2 parents. So, since ‘Scripture doesn’t specifically state that they had the exact same parents,’ should we not believe they were full-blood brothers & sisters? If we apply this method of denying that Jesus had half-brothers & half-sisters for this reason, then in order to be consistent, we have to use this same method to deny that Peter & Andrew, as well as Martha, Mary, & Lazarus were blood-brothers & blood-sisters.

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Also, keep in mind, in Mark 6:4, “Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown (ie: Nazareth) and among his own relatives (‘syggenes’ - ‘close relatives or cousins’) and in his own household (‘oikia’ - ‘the inmates of a house, the family’).” Jesus starts His complaint with His hometown’s people (Nazareth), then narrows His complaint more specifically to His ‘close relatives,’ which would include His cousins, & then narrows it further to the members of His own ‘household,’ who would be His intimate family. Obviously, this excluded Jesus earthly mother & step-father. So, it more specifically refers to His half-brothers & half-sisters in His ‘household,’ which is the same Greek word in Matthew 29:19 & Luke 18:29, describing a household which includes blood-related mothers, fathers, sisters, & brothers.

Based on the relevant Scriptures I had provided in my OP & follow-up posts, the brothers & sisters of Jesus in Matthew Ch.12 & 13 are ‘not’ referring to Jesus’ disciples, believing ‘brothers,’ cousins, or children from a previous marriage. Here is my OP of ‘"Jesus’ Family Tree," with relevant Scriptures below for reference:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8902/familytreea.jpg

(a) Matthew 10:3
(b) Matthew 12:46-50
(c) Matthew 13:55-56
(d) Matthew 20:20
(e) Matthew 27:56
(f) Mark 10:35
(g) Mark 15:40 & 47
(h) Mark 16:1
(i) Luke 1:36
(j) John 2:12
(k) John 6:42
(l) John 7:3-5
(m) John 19:25-27
(n) Acts 1:13-14
(o) Acts 12:2
(p) Acts 15:13
(q) 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
(r) Galatians 1:19
(s) Galatians 2:9
(t) James 1:1
(u) Jude 1:1
(v) Psalm 69:8

I also made a 14 minute video on YouTube that I’d like to post the link to here, if I can. Sometimes ‘visuals’ can be helpful in illustrating more clearly what it written.

In Christ,
Steve.
 
You can provide as many Scripture verses as you want 🙂

The light of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of teaching is given to the apostles and their successors, and I personally don’t understand hou you expect anyone to believe in you because of a few Scriptures you quote, rather than believing on over 1900 years of theological studies of the Church.

I wish to not offend anyone, but I want to quote from St. John of the Cross:
In internal discussions the devil introduces himself …] formingb by subgestion concepts and words, and with very subtle and appearently true things precipitating and deluding them. In this way he communicates …] also with heretics …] filling them with ideas and reasons that are very subtle, false, and erroneous.
 
Steve,

So are we to trust your speculations on the scripture?, and not follow what was accepted for MANY years by the Early Church Fathers? 🤷

Again, Why in the scripture it says THE SON of Mary and Joseph, when Jesus is at the temple 🤷?
In the story of his being found in the Temple, Jesus, at age twelve, is mentioned as evidently the only Son of Mary (Lk 2:41-51); there is no hint of other children in the family. The people of Nazareth, where he grew up, refer to him as “THE son of Mary” (Mk 6:3), not as “A son of Mary”. The Greek expression implies he is her ONLY son. In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s SONS, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren”. If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.
You ignore this. You cannot answer it? Are Jesus’ brothers and sisters still hiding in the Caravan? or being cared by a babysitter? :rolleyes:

Again, read St Jerome

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.v.html

cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm
Till she brought forth her firstborn son: From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.
 
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Also, keep in mind, in Mark 6:4, “Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown (ie: Nazareth) and among his own relatives (‘syggenes’ - ‘close relatives or cousins’) and in his own household (‘oikia’ - ‘the inmates of a house, the family’).” Jesus starts His complaint with His hometown’s people (Nazareth), then narrows His complaint more specifically to His ‘close relatives,’ which would include His cousins, & then narrows it further to the members of His own ‘household,’ who would be His intimate family. Obviously, this excluded Jesus earthly mother & step-father. So, it more specifically refers to His half-brothers & half-sisters in His ‘household,’ which is the same Greek word in Matthew 29:19 & Luke 18:29, describing a household which includes blood-related mothers, fathers, sisters, & brothers.

Based on the relevant Scriptures I had provided in my OP & follow-up posts, the brothers & sisters of Jesus in Matthew Ch.12 & 13 are ‘not’ referring to Jesus’ disciples, believing ‘brothers,’ cousins, or children from a previous marriage. Here is my OP of ‘"Jesus’ Family Tree," with relevant Scriptures below for reference:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8902/familytreea.jpg

(a) Matthew 10:3
(b) Matthew 12:46-50
(c) Matthew 13:55-56
(d) Matthew 20:20
(e) Matthew 27:56
(f) Mark 10:35
(g) Mark 15:40 & 47
(h) Mark 16:1
(i) Luke 1:36
(j) John 2:12
(k) John 6:42
(l) John 7:3-5
(m) John 19:25-27
(n) Acts 1:13-14
(o) Acts 12:2
(p) Acts 15:13
(q) 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
(r) Galatians 1:19
(s) Galatians 2:9
(t) James 1:1
(u) Jude 1:1
(v) Psalm 69:8

I also made a 14 minute video on YouTube that I’d like to post the link to here, if I can. Sometimes ‘visuals’ can be helpful in illustrating more clearly what it written.

In Christ,
Steve.
your “family tree” is made up by you and the string of scriptures verses you are quoting do not prove your tree but you are misquoting them and manipulating them for your made up family tree which is not even in scripture. Your ideas fly right in the face of 1500+ years of church teaching about Mary and Joseph. I am not sure since your are entrenched in what you believe why you feel the need to come on a Catholic forum and question important Catholic teachings.
 
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Also, keep in mind, in Mark 6:4, "Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown (ie: Nazareth) and among his own relatives (‘syggenes’ - ‘close relatives or cousins’) and in his own household
No Steve. This is the actual phrase in Mark 6:4 in the biblical greek. Note the bolded term. IT IS ADELPHOS. This is what we are trying to tell you. It is NOT syggenes.
οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τέκτων, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας καὶ ἀδελφὸς Ἰακώβου καὶ Ἰωσῆτος καὶ Ἰούδα καὶ Σίμωνος; καὶ οὐκ εἰσὶν αἱ ἀδελφαὶ αὐτοῦ ὧδε πρὸς ἡμᾶς; καὶ ἐσκανδαλίζοντο ἐν αὐτῷ.
nNte that the term “brother” (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for “sister” (adelphe) and the plural form “brothers” (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that “brother” had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as “fathers”) and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your “sons”), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).
Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).
The terms “brothers,” “brother,” and “sister” did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).
 
Then based on your first statement, then I’ll just remain quite, as I have come to learn what I have suspected. This is why I tend to stay on Christian forums, that don’t have these ‘particular’ restrictions, which if you think about it, says a mouthful for the confidence (or lack thereof) of forums like this, that challenging the views of the Catholic church are met with restrictions, or else banishment, even if those views are challenged by God’s Holy Word. Sounds like the threat of excommunication - ‘believe us or else, even if you can prove your claims with Scripture!’ That is one of the many reasons I left. Good day, & God bless in Jesus’ Name, Steve.
That is actually not true. I have linked sites on CARM to answer questions from Catholic Answers and it is taken off and I am sent a message that I am in violation to their rules. Then there are other boards…like the Baptist Forum where they don’t even allow a Catholic to register to answer the false information they discuss on their forum about Catholics. CARM and other Christian websites agree with your interpretation so you don’t experience the restrictions that others face.
 
Welcome back, Steve.

You are the only person I know that says that Salome is a sister of the Virgin Mary.

On page 15, in your post #211 you said: “Also, since Jesus was 12, His brothers & sisters may not have been born yet. If Mary was 13 when she had Jesus (which 12 would have been ‘marrying age’ then), that would put Mary at 25, by the time Jesus was 12 - still ‘child-bearing age’ to have children.

I answered to this comment in my post #243 on page 17. Have you read it? You accept that the supposed siblings of Jesus may have not been born when He was 12 at the Temple visit. That makes him at least 13 years older (if not more) than His oldest sibling, which means that when Jesus began His public life the oldest sibling was, at most, 17 years old. Mary was not on a mission to populate Palestine in a hurry all by herself, so let’s say that the others were born 2 years apart, which makes them 15, 13, 11, 9 and 7 when Jesus was 30. And you want us to believe these teenagers talked down on Jesus?
 
Tell me BARN, you seemed to have spent an alful lot of time and effort into this very imaginative tree, all for the purpose of proving Mary had other children? Why is it so important to you that Mary did not remain a virgin? This “tree” would be rejected by Protestant and even many evangelical scholars. Yet you persist, and I have to wonder.
Many times people fight the hardest to what they are drawn to the most.
Why do you suppose that is?
 
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I figured that I would get a lot of responses, so I am directly posting some Scriptures, in addition to the graph, plus a video on YouTube that I made, that everyone can view if they want. It’s not professional, but it’s brief & backed up by Scripture:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8902/familytreea.jpg

“Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

“There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joseph, and Salome.” (Mark 15:40)

Since Matthew & Mark are 2 of the Synoptic Gospels, it’s clear theses verses are parallel accounts, just told slightly different. Both say there are ‘women looking from afar’; both say ‘among them are’; both mention Mary Magdalene first; both mention Mary the mother of James (the Less) & Joseph second; & the third woman is Salome the mother of Zebedee’s sons (James & John). Now, compare to John’s account, just before Jesus dies on the cross:

“Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household." (John 19:25-27)

Here, the only ‘new’ people at the cross are Mary, the mother of Jesus, & John the ‘disciple who Jesus loved.’ Mary the wife of Clopas is the same as Mary the mother of James (the Less) & Joseph & Mary Magdalene is also present. Salome, not Mary of Clopas, is the sister of Jesus’s mother for a few reasons. First, if she’s not, then Salome doesn’t get accounted for at the cross, even though Mary Magdalene & the ‘other’ Mary do. Second, Salome is the only ‘non-Mary’ mentioned at the cross. Third, if Mary of Clopas is the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus, then Mary’s sister is named Mary, which would mean that their parents named BOTH of their daughters MARY, & just like today, people didn’t name their children the EXACT SAME name, because names in Biblical times had significant meaning (ex: Jacob had 12 sons - none had the same name). Therefore, SALOME is the sister of Jesus’ mother. So, by looking at the ‘Jesus Family Tree,’ since Salome was the sister of Mary the mother of Jesus, that would make James & John, Jesus’ COUSINS. So, Jesus put His beloved mother in the care of His beloved & faithful disciple AND COUSIN - John, because the rest of the disciples were hiding behind locked doors, & since his ‘unbelieving’ half-brothers didn’t believe IN HIM (John 7:5), they weren’t at the cross because they had ‘reproached’ or ‘taunted’ or ‘scorned’ Him (John 7:3-4; Psalm 69:7-9).

Now, compare them to the ‘brothers & sisters of Jesus’ in Matthew 13:55-56:

“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Here, Jesus is listed with His step-father (the carpenter - Joseph), His mother Mary, & His brothers - James, Joseph, Simon, & Judas, & at least 2 unnamed sisters. Here, James & Joseph are not His only brothers - Simon & Judas are also mentioned along with the sisters. And even though both “James’ & Joseph’s” have a mother named ‘Mary,’ the have 2 different “James & Joseph’s” have different fathers - Jesus’ father is Joseph, while James (the Less) & Joseph’s father is Alphaeus (Clopas). Also, since it’s clear that Joseph & Mary are Jesus’ actually earthly step-father & mother, then there is no reason to assume that His brothers & sisters are anything other than His earthly half-brothers & half-sisters, & not His disciples, especially if you continue reading Matthew 13, as well as Mark’s parallel account in the Greek, as well as passages like Matthew 12:46-50; John 2:12; & John 7:3-5, which differentiate between Jesus’ brothers, disciples, & ‘believing’ brothers

Sometimes a ‘visual’ is better. Here is a brief video (unprofessionally done) that I made to help clear up some misunderstandings:

youtube.com/watch?v=NyiGw4cI95E

(a) Matthew 10:3
(b) Matthew 12:46-50
(c) Matthew 13:55-56
(d) Matthew 20:20
(e) Matthew 27:56
(f) Mark 10:35
(g) Mark 15:40 & 47
(h) Mark 16:1
(i) Luke 1:36
(j) John 2:12
(k) John 6:42
(l) John 7:3-5
(m) John 19:25-27
(n) Acts 1:13-14
(o) Acts 12:2
(p) Acts 15:13
(q) 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
(r) Galatians 1:19
(s) Galatians 2:9
(t) James 1:1
(u) Jude 1:1
(v) Psalm 69:8
 
Steve,

What about the holes of your little hypothesis?

The history of 12 year old Jesus at the temple?

or you changing Adelphos for syggenes in Mark 6:4?
Mark 6:4 οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τέκτων, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς Μαρίας καὶ ἀδελφὸς Ἰακώβου καὶ Ἰωσῆτος καὶ Ἰούδα καὶ Σίμωνος; καὶ οὐκ εἰσὶν αἱ ἀδελφαὶ αὐτοῦ ὧδε πρὸς ἡμᾶς; καὶ ἐσκανδαλίζοντο ἐν αὐτῷ.
I am reading the biblical greek, and this is adelphos. Where is syggnes? 🤷

Here is Mark 6:4 in Latin from St Jerome’s work.
et dicebat eis Iesus quia non est propheta sine honore nisi in patria sua et in cognatione sua et in domo sua
cognatione may mean related by blood or by other means such as religious affiliation, military, and others.

and more… You just need to read St. Jerome’s refutal.
 
Steve,

What about the holes of your little hypothesis?

The history of 12 year old Jesus at the temple?

or you changing Adelphos for syggenes in Mark 6:4?

I am reading the biblical greek, and this is adelphos. Where is syggnes? 🤷

and more… You just need to read St. Jerome’s refutal.
Don’t know where you are getting ‘adelphos’ from. It’s ‘syggenēs’ not ‘adelphos’:

ἔλεγεν δὲ αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Οὐκ ἔστιν προφήτης ἄτιμος εἰ μὴ ἐν τῇ πατρίδι αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τοῖς συγγενέσιν καὶ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ αὐτοῦ - Textus Receptus

καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν προφήτης ἄτιμος εἰ μὴ ἐν τῇ πατρίδι αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τοῖς συγγενεῦσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ αὐτοῦ - Greek NT Alexandrian texts

Either you are quoting from a different passage, or your source isn’t accurate.
 
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