Did Mary know that Jesus was God?

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Trinitarians are not genuine or classical monotheists - at best they are only ontological monotheists. More important, trinitarians are definitely not monotheists in the sense that Mary was a monotheist. You and I both clearly know Mary’s classic Abrahamic monotheistic theology. As an example, we note that Mary referred to Lord singular - as her personal God - NOT Lords plural to reflect three different persons. We do not address an essence/nature - we address a person(s).
Nothing can be clearer than the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And I believe inone Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father beyond all ages.** God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God.** Begotten, not made, of **one **substance with the Father
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets.
NB “Lord” is always used in the singular.

St Paul explicitly stated that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”. Colossians 2:9

Jesus Himself told us that “The Father and I are one”. John 10:30
 
Nothing can be clearer than the Nicene Creed:

NB “Lord” is always used in the singular.

St Paul explicitly stated that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”. Colossians 2:9

Jesus Himself told us that “The Father and I are one”. John 10:30
Tony

With all due respect, the Biblical creed is the only creed we need - and it is totally clear -

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Based on this we know there is only one God - and that God is completely defined as the Father. In addition, there is another entity - who in this context is the Lord (not Jehovah since Jehovah is the one God), but Lord in a different sense - and that is Jesus Christ.

Very simple.

Best,
Aner
 
I am interested…where is the evidence of this?

You indicate it is clear in scripture; can you provide specific scriptures and explain why they indicate this?
Vz - Thanks for the follow up question.

Generally it is impossible to provide a scripture that addresses something that simply does not exist (since Mary never explicitly denied that Jesus was God - since she never would have conceived of Him being so). I have been reading scripture for over 35 years - I have never once seen the remotest implication of Mary having any sense of Jesus being ontologically God.

The basic evidence in this case is by

a) the complete absence of any text that remotely implies that Mary had such a conception

b) every text that implies or states that Mary believed Jesus was a human being

c) that Mary was clearly an Abrahamic monotheist - she had the same faith as her culture as clearly expressed in the Magnificat and not one remote implication of any other such faith article being expressed anywhere.

Regardless of the above and to perhaps better answer your question, as I am reading in Luke, I will keep an eye out for some very specific texts to add to this post.

Best,
In Christ,

Aner
We have the words of Gabriel. We have the words of Elizabeth.
I see plenty of scripture to indicate she knew Jesus to be God.

What I do not see are indications otherwise.

If we cannot believe what was told her, then what are we saying?
That Mary was not listening?
I would think in that type of position she would be contemplating everything said around her to better understand what was happening to her and her son.
 
The answer is clear in scripture.

NO - Mary did not know that Jesus was ontologically God. The thought would never enter a genuine Abrahamic monotheist’s mind.
It might though if she were told. AND she was told things. Which were later recorded in scripture by evangelists who possibly learned about what was said … from HER.
Luke 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was ***sent from God ***to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, he said,
“Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
At this point Mary’s initial confusion is answered by an Angel. Who also tells her the HOW of her impregnation since she is a virgin and “does not know man…”. She BELIEVES the message, and agrees with it. She know that “David” is not the real Father specifically but God. She is likely related to the House of David … as is her betrothed, Joseph.
Luke 1:34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” 35 And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the*** Son of God.***
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God."
38 Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.
39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah,
40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Both Mary and Elizabeth were of course monotheistic first century Abrahamic Jews in a sense. But God the Father was communicating to Mary. God the Word was becoming flesh within her. God the Holy Spirit was overshadowing her in place of a human father to that same Son (of God and “man”).

Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit. And calls Mary the “Mother of My Lord”. A person in the Holy Spirit does not call someone other than the Lord “Lord”. Elizabeth in the spirit has knowledge beyond the human too … as she knows of Mary’s belief in what was told her (in counterpoint to her husband’s skepticism of a lesser miracle when the SAME angel appeared to him in the holy of holies of the Temple to announce that his prayer had been heard and that he would have a “miraculous” son from his aged wife Elizabeth).

Mary sometimes pondered mysteries in her heart. And in these cases may have had the revelation of who Jesus was – revealed to her more and more over time. But she believed.

She did not contradict Elizabeth’s “mother of my Lord” statement in the Spirit. Not even quibbling with the title “mother” though she was "ONLY":rolleyes: the mother of an unborn child at that point (as non-Holy Spirit filled people might reckon it).

The answer to the thread’s question is: YES.

Did she ***ALWAYS ***know? Might be what was meant. But again, the answer is … if not ALWAYS … when was that time, and of how short a duration, when she that believed, only partially knew the extent of His deity?

The Bible records Peter knowing. And Thomas knowing. And proclaiming Him “Son of God” and “Lord”.

Mary’s Holy Spirit Filled “Magnificat” recognizes God as her savior … even before the fact of her Son’s cross.

She gets more information about Him as her life goes on. At his presentation in the Temple where a prophecy of His death is linked by the prophet with a sword that will pierce her heart also. From the testimony of the shepherds and wise men. From Angels appearing to Joseph in dreams and warning her etc.

Hence she is the prototypical “first Christian”. First to accept Him. Learn of Him. Allow herself to be intimate with him spiritually (by serving him day after day and “let it be done unto me” surrender). Once Christ resides inside her … she hastens to help others. She agreed and cooperated with the Holy Spirit … (and the insights go on and on …).

All in all the question is proving to be a fruitful one to ponder.

It is wonderful to have the Church as our light to view scriptures by. Though even the Church doesn’t hold forth and define every detail of scripture.
 
Tony

With all due respect, the Biblical creed is the only creed we need - and it is totally clear -

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Based on this we know there is only one God - and that God is completely defined as the Father. In addition, there is another entity - who in this context is the Lord (not Jehovah since Jehovah is the one God), but Lord in a different sense - and that is Jesus Christ.

Very simple.

Best,
Aner
Aner, the Protestant reliance on Scripture alone presupposes the Church’s authority in the choice of texts which constitute Scripture. There are thousands of Christian sects that disagree with one another because misguided individuals have claimed they are inspired by God and their interpretation supercedes everyone else’s. Jesus didn’t write a book but founded a community led by St Peter.

Do you reject St Paul’s view that"in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"?
 
Linus

Agreed as to your point. What it does mean is that there is no positive information that Mary did know. In light of her culture and without positive information, there is no meaninful basis to believe that she knew. When the Bible is silent, I am silent.

Trinitarians are not genuine or classical monotheists - at best they are only ontological monotheists. More important, trinitarians are definitely not monotheists in the sense that Mary was a monotheist. You and I both clearly know Mary’s classic Abrahamic monotheistic theology. As an example, we note that Mary referred to Lord singular - as her personal God - NOT Lords plural to reflect three different persons. We do not address an essence/nature - we address a person(s).

I think each of these points relate to the redeemer issue. Have you done a thorough job of studying scripture re: the word Redeemer??

Finally, don’t you think she had as much faith as you and I do?

BTW - Yes, Mary had a complete faith in the Creator - I trust and pray that both you and I can obtain this same level of faith - and I rejoice when I touch it.

Best,

Aner
Everyone is welcome to their convictions and beliefs. We are worlds apart.

Pax
Linus2nde
 
… Also her Aunt Elisabeth

I think you need to read your Bible more carefully, some of the things you said above are not exactly correct, some are way off.

God Bless
Linus2nd
I believe Elizabeth is Mary’s cousin;)
 
Another reason why that piece “Mary Did You Know?” should never be sung in a Catholic church. It’s completely against what we know form the Bible.
I agree when I heard that song it upset me Mary knew more than anybody about who Jesus was.
 
Sorry for being human :D.
Be sure to watch for my misspelled words as well. Wouldn’t want you to miss a chance to pounce.

Linus2nd
 
Sorry for being human :D.
Be sure to watch for my misspelled words as well. Wouldn’t want you to miss a chance to pounce.

Linus2nd
I’ll keep a look out! lol. If you need misspelled words and grammar errors I have a boatload of them you may borrow from.😃
 
We have the words of Gabriel. We have the words of Elizabeth.
I see plenty of scripture to indicate she knew Jesus to be God.

What I do not see are indications otherwise.

If we cannot believe what was told her, then what are we saying?
That Mary was not listening?
I would think in that type of position she would be contemplating everything said around her to better understand what was happening to her and her son.
Vz

Thanks for the response. I have just been reading in Lk1 re Gabriel and Elizabeth - I do see every indication otherwise, e.g. Jesus is the SON of the Most High instead of the Most High, etc.

Perhaps you would kind enough to provide one specific that we could chew on?

Best,
Aner
 
I do NOT believe that Mary knew that Jesus was going to be God in the flesh from what she was told by Gabriel.

The “Messiah” that the Jews were expecting was not God-Incarnate, not even close.

I believe that Mary’s YES was totally accepted on faith, on faith that God was doing something that God wanted Mary to participate in.

Mary’s YES was totally faith-based, I believe, not knowledge-based.

I believe that this should make Mary’s YES even more of an inspiration to us than if Mary were somehow “privy” to knowing something that, at the time, was completely off of the radar screen of any Jew, so to speak.

The “words” that Gabriel used could have been interpreted by Mary as simply being asked by God to participate and she said YES.

As far as the song, “Mary did you know”, I, most definitely, do not believe that Mary knew that her Son would walk on water, among other things.

Mary was/is the Mother of God-Incarnate, Mary is NOT God and Mary did NOT know how Jesus’s life would unfold.

I also believe that Gabriel was in “full Angelic attire”, whatever that might be, when He visited Mary with his question since this was something that Mary had to agree to using her God-given free will.
Nice! Straight from scripture!
 
I agree when I heard that song it upset me Mary knew more than anybody about who Jesus was.
And you think that Mary “knew” that Jesus would walk on water?

I do not think that Mary knew at all that the Child to be called Jesus was going to be Almighty God in the flesh but I do believe that Mary knew that this visitor, “Gabriel”, was from God and that on complete faith she said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
 
And you think that Mary “knew” that Jesus would walk on water?

I do not think that Mary knew at all that the Child to be called Jesus was going to be Almighty God in the flesh but I do believe that Mary knew that this visitor, “Gabriel”, was from God and that on complete faith she said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
Then she wasn’t as bright as St. Peter because he sure knew. And what do you think when she saw her Son after the Resurrection, the Ascension?

Pax
Linus2nd
 
By the way, what I have written concerning Mary and what I believed she knew, I have based on what I believed she knew when she gave her YES to God thru Gabriel.

I very much believe that Mary’s YES was/is the best YES that anyone has or will ever give to God.
 
Then she wasn’t as bright as St. Peter because he sure knew. And what do you think when she saw her Son after the Resurrection, the Ascension?

Pax
Linus2nd
Peter knew absolutely nothing about Jesus before Jesus was born and that is, as far as I know, the “when” that we are talking about concerning whether or not Mary knew that the Child to be born to her was going to be Almighty God in the flesh.

As far as “after the Resurrection, the Ascension”, that is completely different and as far as the song that some have mentioned, “Mary, did you know?”, this song is also about before Jesus was born and, I am not sure, maybe about when Jesus was very little, wasn’t it?

I, personally believe, that Jesus was as completely helpless when He was born as the rest of us, do you?
 
Peter knew absolutely nothing about Jesus before Jesus was born and that is, as far as I know, the “when” that we are talking about concerning whether or not Mary knew that the Child to be born to her was going to be Almighty God in the flesh.

As far as “after the Resurrection, the Ascension”, that is completely different and as far as the song that some have mentioned, “Mary, did you know?”, this song is also about before Jesus was born and, I am not sure, maybe about when Jesus was very little, wasn’t it?

I, personally believe, that Jesus was as completely helpless when He was born as the rest of us, do you?
I love rational, Biblical based thinkers!!! Thanks for the breath of fresh air!
 
And you think that Mary “knew” that Jesus would walk on water?

I do not think that Mary knew at all that the Child to be called Jesus was going to be Almighty God in the flesh but I do believe that Mary knew that this visitor, “Gabriel”, was from God and that on complete faith she said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
I don’t think she necessarily have to know about those things. Remember Mary fed, took care, raides Jesus. She was with him for 30 years before his public ministry .Her above any other human being knows way more than any other person.
 
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