Did Mary sleep with Joseph after she had Jesus?

[goout]

goout:
Not sure what your point is in my regard. Perhaps it would be helpful to read my conversations in full before commenting. As just stated:

we may therefore loosely hold differing views where the Magisterium is silent.

I do not understand why you have issues with this.

1 Do you realize you misquoted me above? I removed the misquote.
ok:

I posted that it is good to be docile to the Traditions of the Church, one of which is the perpetual virginity of Mary, (“the topic”).
You said

Lets not guild the lily or indulge our own pious exaggerations or personal religious sentimentalities

The only docility required by Catholics in the face of “we dont know” is to what is true and to the Magisterium not singular versions of “tradition” or interpretations of Scripture.

As if the perpetual virginity is not Magisterial.
Some confusion here for sure. Maybe you could clarify what exactly you are objecting to.

 

[Sophie111]

Sorry, but you have lost me.
I do not know what it is you think I have said that would lead you to personally inform me that the Church affirms the perpetual virginity of Mary as dogma.

You do not appear to have read my preceding contributions.
Perhaps it would be courteous to do so before attempting to respond half way through.

 

[hope]

I think you have many confused here. You say

The Church teaches Mary remained a virgin.
That is not conclusively found in the Bible.

Did Mary sleep with Joseph and have cuddles and kisses?
Quite possibly.
But really, who knows.
In the end I do not think our salvation rests on this matter

Here you say that the Church teaches that Mary remained a virgin and then ask if Mary slept with Joseph which is a common euphemism for sex. If that is not what you meant, it is the way others are seeing it.
Your other post are equally confusing.
BTW when you answer a post it will show up as a reply to that post. You will see under a post how many replies to it. It is not necessary to quote the post you are replying to.

 

[goout]

Sorry, but you have lost me.
I do not know what it is you think I have said that would lead you to personally inform me that the Church affirms the perpetual virginity of Mary as dogma.

You do not appear to have read my preceding contributions.
Perhaps it would be courteous to do so before attempting to respond half way through.

I’ll defer to Hope’s thoughts above. I did go back and read your posts.
You should clarify.

 

[Sophie111]

I think you have many confused here. You say

The Church teaches Mary remained a virgin.
That is not conclusively found in the Bible.

Did Mary sleep with Joseph and have cuddles and kisses?
Quite possibly.
But really, who knows.
In the end I do not think our salvation rests on this matter

The problem then appears to be your mistaken interpretations of my face value statements and perhaps a somewhat rigid approach to language without consideration of context.

I clearly said “The Church teaches Mary remained a virgin”.
If you have somehow come to the opposite conclusion then it seems equally clear that a good faith reader would understand they have misunderstood something else.

It is now clear, I suggest, what your trivial mistaken assumptions have been.

As Aquinas says, always assume the best possible interpretation of another’s words.
Had you done so, given I name myself Catholic, you would have been able to sort this out this storm in a teacup misunderstanding of yours for yourself I suggest.

It is not necessary to quote the post you are replying to.

If you do not then you can expect this problem to recur as you go forward on CAF.
Helpful persons can only lead a horse to water…

 

[hope]

There are others here that have issues with your post. You have said t opposite things. You said what the Church teaches and then have a question that indicates that she didn’t It is about time you stop making suggestions on how others should post and take a better look at how you are posting. goout has object to your post as Francis and guanophore. When you have more than one misunderstanding your post it is more likely that your post are confusing. The problem is your posting. IF I were to take your statement at face value I would have to believe you do not believe in the virginity of Mary and you know nothing about first century life. As you think Mary raised cousins when that goes against the culture. I guess you don’t know how families lived together. The cousins would have had their parents in that group as well.

If you do not then you can expect this problem to recur as you go forward on CAF.
Helpful persons can only lead a horse to water…

You do realize that you do not have quotes in each of your post as well? I have no problem as I know how to use the site.

 

[Sophie111]

IF I were to take your statement at face value I would have to believe you do not believe in the virginity of Mary

And yet you just said “Here you say that the Church teaches that Mary remained a virgin”.

Regardless this “discussion” has descended into trivialities and an assumption of good faith no longer seems to be in play so best to say God bless to you.

 

[hope]

You say what the Church teaches but taking at face value what you write I would believe that you don’t believe it. Assumption of good faith goes both ways.

 

[Francis]

The Church teaches Mary remained a virgin.
That is not conclusively found in the Bible.

yes * **2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.**In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33. they are not to be misunderstood as customs or human behaviour or habits

there are many more things not conclusively found in the Bible ,unless you believe in the Bible alone

as said in John 21:24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Did Mary sleep with Joseph and have cuddles and kisses?
Quite possibly.

No, its false , not at all ,nor its given in the Bible,i do appreciate your imagination though
The Catholic Church as the guardians and keeper of the flock Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

But really, who knows.
In the end I do not think our salvation rests on this matter.

yes it does, its the basis of our Christian Faith and important for the salvation of souls,she had a higher call as the Mother of God, Virgin Mary being the Mother of God,and who is also our spiritual mother. As the Heavenly Father also gave to our first parents Adam and Eve who sinned it was like a storm which ruined their lives, God gave a Hope of Mother Mary and promised salvation gthyrougthy Jesus and restoration of Grace in Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy (satan’s children =wicked people, anti-Christ ) seed and her (Mary) seed (Jesus and Christians): she shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
There is no Jesus with out Mary and there is no Mary with out Jesus

 

[Francis]

I find it a bit sad that Mary and Joseph’s marriage isn’t the ‘ideal’ marriage as it’s primary end was not procreation… but if it was so, so be it.

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit ,and St Joseph is the Foster Father of Jesus ,well they are the ideal examples of a family because Jesus was the center of their lives, In God plan of salvation, Mary had a higher calling, to be the Mother of God and we as the spiritual children of her (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain ;perpetual virginity ), John 1:13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married**

sirach 24:18 I am the mother (Mary)of beautiful love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope; being eternal, I therefore am given to all my children (Gen 3:15), to those who are named by him(Jesus).

I do not believe that Mary being a virgin added anything to her holiness though… she would have been just as perfect if she and Joseph we together in a married way…If I were to venture a guess, it seems to me that this belief came about during a time when the Church believed that something was dirty and sinful about marital relations and that it was better to be a virgin…

That not true, its your personal view,and imagination, Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter. God has filled her with full of grace and chosen her to be the Mother of God John 9:31 says we know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace, found favor with God Lk 1:42 – Elizabeth: “most blessed among women” Lk 1:48 – Mary: “all generations will call me blessed” Mother of God Lk 1:43 – Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God.

 

[Francis]

The Church Father’s has already acknowledged Mary’s role as the Mother of God and as our Mother,what is you point ? and you want to doubt and cause confusion to your self and others we as Catholic believe .The Gospel was handed on in two waysrally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.3480 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other.

For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”. two distinct modes of transmission.“Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

 

[Francis]

Theres much to unpack here.

I believe the Church has modified its teaching on the purpose of marriage beyond this traditional position.

Further, even the classic “primary end” was not simply “procreation” but procreation and the upbringing of children. Mary and Joseph brought up not only Jesus but also some of his cousins.

sorry ,the Church has not modified anything ,everything has been handed down from centuries through Christ to the Apostles, in the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century. As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles. in 1 Cor. 15:6 6 After that,he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters so do you mean Jesus had 500 breathers the same time most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.And so easily refuted. as Lot is referred to as the brother of Abram in the OT. Yet we know he wasn’t his brother but rather Abram’s uncle’s son…

For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ’s death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century. As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.

The oldest hymn to her is contained is called in Latin the Sub Tuum Praesidium; (Under Thy Protection) and dates to the Third Century. It is also found in Greek and Church Slavonic and begins with these words:“We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos; despise not our petition in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.”

Not desiring to ask for those rights (but being willing to give them if asked) does not deny the procreative end of marriage. In Catholic theology an “end” is primarily in the intent of the soul not in the actual execution of the bodily capacities.

Their marriage would not have been valid (had they been Catholics) if they intended to deny the procreative end of their marriage beforehand.

Well its was God’s Plan of salvation, for Mother Mary as she made a vow of perceptual virginity which is an historical fact, Mary was consecrated as a Temple virgin at the age of three and lived in the temple precincts till the age of fourteen when she was married to Saint Joseph and there after virginally conceived the Son of God.St Joseph cooperated by being the foster father of Jesus

 

[Francis]

I believe the Church has modified its teaching on the purpose of marriage beyond this traditional position.

Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 Mary "stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established."13133 God called Joseph to “take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”, so that Jesus, “who is called Christ”, should be born of Joseph’s spouse into the messianic lineage of David.34

**[501] Jesus is Mary’s only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother’s love."160

Blessed Mother, makes it very clear whom to obey? John 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.Jesus and He make it very clear whom to obey Mother Mary,did He not? He gave his last treasure(all the Graces,secrets of the Kingdom of God is Hidden in the Immaculate Heart of Mary. LK 2:19,51) to the Church as St John as a Apostle and representing all of us, read and understand ? follow His instructions?

John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman,(addressing as the Women of Genesis 3:15 the New Eve our Mother Mary) behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”( its a commandment Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long(Eternity ) in the land (Heaven)which the Lord your God gives you).And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home(His heart, the Church, for all human race for Eternity).Hebrews 11:16 (Mother Mary metaphorically emphasized here Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem (Mother Mary)

 

[Francis]

There is no reason to believe either Mary or Joseph denied the procreative end of marriage.

It was God’s Plan of salvation that she remain a virgin as in Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. . Mother Mary being the Mother of God, How much more powerful will be, her intercession before God .AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.

so does your personal point of view, singling out a line of Scripture and falsely claiming you own imagination the facts are God Plan of salvation and Mary by saying yes became part of our salvation. Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant ( =Mother Mary ) was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Revelation 12:1-2 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman (Mother Mary) clothed with the sun (Glory Wisdom 7:26 For she (Mother Mary) is a reflection of eternal light=Jesus

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem (Mary) , coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

Revelation 21:10 And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem (Mother Mary)coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It (Mary)has the glory of God and a radiance like a very rare jewel, like jasper, clear as crystal.(Mother Mary& virtues) 12 It has a great, high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the Israelites;

 

[tafan2]

I think that is a non-sequitur… Refraining from could possibly suggest respect, but not necessarily… your statement definitely seems to imply that having relations would somehow defile the Incarnation and God’s presence and action.

Do you believe that if Mary and Joseph had normal relations, that would be an insult to God? I’ll put my cards out there, I don’t…

Perhaps not an insult, but perhaps not as pleasing to God. There are degrees of holiness/goodness. Surely you would agree that fasting from food on a day that is not mandated by the Church and for a proper intention is a good thing. Now, if a person did not do so, it is not an insult to God, but if a person does this, it is more pleasing to God. So why would you think that Mary’s perpetual virginity would not be more pleasing to God?

 

[Francis]

Gee… I don’t know… there is one of the so-called ‘unusually pious’ folks posting in this thread…

godisgood77 with a wonderful sense s of imagination, which just goes over the head

You should know that this argument is often put forward in this way to establish Mary intent to remain a virgin even after marriage. You should also know that I find that argument pretty flimsy… your point about ‘being willing, but not asked’ seems more believable.

It was God’s plan that she remain as a virgin dedicated to the Lord and she cooperated to the will of God which are facts than your false claim,which has no basis on Scripture nor any other sources Isaiah 66; 7 before she(Mary) was in labor she gave birth; Before her pain came upon her she delivered a son(Jesus).8 who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be delivered in one moment? Yet as soon as Zion was in labor she delivered her children.9 shall I open the womb and not deliver? Says the Lord; shall I, the one who delivers, shut the womb? Says your God. Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter (Eve)? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman (Mother Mary) encompasses a man (Jesus).

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

 

[Francis]

You believe that Joseph couldnt have kissed or cuddled Mary because God would have killed him if he did so?

OK, when you can authoritatively quote that from the NT or even the Magisterium do come back

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

**[492] The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

**[501] Jesus is Mary’s only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother’s love."160

Mary’s virginal motherhood in God’s plan

**[502] The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.

510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm . 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” ( Lk 1:38).

511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living. Sirach 24:18, I am the mother of beautiful love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope; being eternal, I am given to all my children, to those who are named by him.

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/vol1/vol1.shtml

And in order that this work of the Most High might be entirely perfect (for it was the beginning of the greatest, which He was to execute by his Omnipotence) He ordained that the Princess of heaven, by her mere presence and intercourse, should infuse into the heart of her spouse a holy fear and reverence greater than words could ever suffice to describe. This effect was wrought upon saint Joseph by an effulgence or reflection of the divine light, which shone from the face of our Queen and which was mingled with an ineffable and always visible majesty. So much the more was this due to Her than to Moses descending from the mountain, (Exod. 24, 30) as her intercourse and conversation with God had been more extended and intimate.

 

[Francis]

Actually the term “overshadowed” is a euphemism for the marital embrace.

Conceived by the holy Spirit mother of Jesus was “always a virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus Christ.” because Jesus came out of her like a light, a miraculous birth. John 1:4, 5 in Him was life and the life was the light of all people.5 The light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not overcome it. Those people who mistranslated as young women give silly excuse to discredit Mary’s status and of being a virgin

Polygamy?

Jeez…!! sorry…I’m being wise

yea wise in your own eyes

 

[Fauken]

yea wise i your own eyes

I think @godisgood77 meant “wise” as in “sarcastic”, not wisdom.

 

[Francis]

Are you saying you don’t understand Mary as the Ark of the Covenant, or that you are not aware that those who were not consecrated were allowed to touch the Ark?

Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.. they are not to be misunderstood as customs or human behaviour or habits and therefore cannot be sill because its the word of god