Did Mary sleep with Joseph after she had Jesus?

[Francis]

Yes we are all aware of these pious, non Canonical works. They were left out of the canon for a reason.
Fantasy based on patterns that lack certain knowledge. Do you also believe baby Jesus made clay sparrows, blessed them and they flew away. Do you tend to believe also that Jesus did not exit Mary through her birth canal but through her abdomen…and that the midwife who dared to test her intact virginity ended up with a withered finger!

mother of Jesus was “always a virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus Christ.” because Jesus came out of her like a light, a miraculous birth. John 1:4, 5 in Him was life and the life was the light of all people.5 The light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not overcome it.

We simply do not know, and consistency of patterns (which the ancients loved to mine from the Bible like some sort of mathematical puzzle) does not truth make. That is the approach of flat-earthers. As the old riddle goes: “What is the difference between truth and fiction…only fiction has to make sense!”

hour argument does not have any proper basis nor based on fact but rather on personal imaginations and self interpretation of Scripture,which is forbidden and hour even disregard the Church Father’s go deep in history and you will realize where you stand truth or friction.

. **Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter Heaven, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. But when Jesus is born she had to be without Original Sin a pure vessel to contain Jesus in the womb… Lord Jesus (GOD) had to be born in a women who is sinless. Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Song of Solomon 6:9 My dove(Mary), my perfect one, is only one, the darling of her mother, flawless (sinless) to her that bore her. The maidens saw her and called her happy; the queens and concubines also, and they praised her. Song of Solomon 6:4 You (Mary) are beautiful as Tirzah, my love, comely as Jerusalem, terrible as an army with banners. Song of Solomon 6:10 “Who is this (Mary)that looks forth like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army with banners?” Said by the Angles who were all in Awe of Mary a when they seen her in the Empyrean Heaven and acclaimed so

 

[Francis]

Would you quote what you are reffering to?
Is it Mary looking after children from her extended family?
Sure its not absolutely certain but is reasonably inferred from a number of NT passages. More reasonably inferred than that Mary had taken vows of virginity.
Its a trivial point re the primary point … that Mary fulfilled a primary purpose of marriage…rearing of children.

yes rearing Spiritual children for the Kingdom of God

the new Eve Mother Mary Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

Genesis 3:15 15 I will put enmities between thee(satan) and the woman(Mary), and thy(satan and wicked people ) seed and her seed(Jesus and we Catholic and those who respect and honor her ): she(Mother Mary) shall crush thy(satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her(Mother Mary) heel.

Both Eve and Mary were approached by an angel (with Eve, a fallen angel lucifer ); doubt crept into Eve’s heart, whereas Mary’s faith was steadfast,Pure in fullness (see Luke 1:45). Eve participated in the downfall of the first Adam, just as Mary participates in the victory of her Son, the New Adam (see Luke 2:34-35). In the words of the early Fathers, “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s faith.” and because she in union with Jesus in spirit 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. “Full of grace”, Mary is “the most excellent fruit of redemption” ( SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

509 Mary is truly “Mother of God” since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm . 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” ( Lk 1:38).

511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

 

[Francis]

We simply do not know…mans desire to fill in the gaps with legend and pious archetypal rationalisations subjectively typical of any given age is understandable.
But to turn off critical discerment and forget that we just do not know is to fly in the face of an uncertainty God clearly expects us to bear.

So God’s plan and work is a fly in the face to you you lack basic Christian history and base all your discernment on personal imaginations and assumptions , Jeremiah 29:11 For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope. James 1:17 Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave us birth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.**

Ephesians 1:4 just as he chose us(Mary too) in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight 9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth

 

[MT1926]

the entire question of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity doesn’t really mean much and invites more questions than it does add to my faith.

Your post caught my eye because for me it is the exact opposite. Not having the Marian dogma’s would invite more questions and actually detract from my faith.

When it comes to teachings on Mary my mind always goes to the old saying, You can learn a lot about a guy by the way he treats his momma. Basically, what I am getting at is all of the teachings on Mary aren’t about her they all point to Jesus.

This might be a little confusing because sometimes my mind is all over the place, so bear with me.

Let’s take for instance the perpetual virginity. To me this brings to mind Jesus teaching in

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

When Jesus says “for the sake of the kingdom” He is telling us that celibacy is a calling and a gift, that is only granted to some.

St. Paul also teaches that a married woman is anxious about the world and how to please her husband.

St. Paul even goes on to teach that celibacy is better than marriage and he wished all could be like him.

So all of this tells me that to be celibate and totally committed to the Lord is a far better and more perfect state for us, than having ourselves divided between our spouse and the Lord. Why would Jesus give this gift to anyone if he wasn’t willing to give it to his own momma?

I also know that our goal as rational souls is union with God. When we enter heaven our wills won’t be divided between God and our spouses. However, at the same time our spouse will be in union with us as members of the body of Christ. So we can still love them even though we are celibate in heaven.

Well didn’t Mary already achieve this union? Wasn’t Jesus in her womb for 9 months? And even more mind blowing is that science is discovering that the fetal DNA enters through the placenta and travels around the mother’s blood stream and sneaks into her organs. They have even discovered that these cells can replicate and become part of the mother’s Liver cells and heart muscle. Science has even shown that these fetal cells may protect mom from disease long after the baby is born.

To me this is mind blowing, even after birth Jesus cells remained in Mary. Jesus was still in complete union with Mary. She already had the union that we one day hope and pray to achieve, Union with God.

For me if Mary had union with God and still maintained “worldly” attachments it would actually decrease my faith that one day I would ever be able to give up my worldly attachments and achieve union with God.

Same goes with Joseph. If God said to you here is my son raise Him and protect Him. Would you honestly place anything else, that you desire in your life, as being more important than Jesus?

Hope that made sense,

God Bless

 

[Carmel]

Matt:22.30 In answer to a question Jesus said
At the Resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. They will be like the angels in heaven.
Hence - Mary and her Divine Son are the prototypes of the new humanity in the next life.

 

[Richca]

Yes, consecrated virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is objectively speaking a better and more perfect state than marriage. This is clear from the very example of the life Jesus chose and his words, the example of Mary and Joseph, St Paul and what he writes, the development of the religious state and life in the Church, and the teaching of the Church which has repeatedly said so.

This obviously is not to disparage marriage which God himself instituted when he created Adam and Eve. None of us would be here today if it wasn’t for our parents. Mary herself was married though at the same time a virgin and St Joseph too. So Mary and Joseph are an example to both marriage and consecrated virginity for the sake of the kingdom of God.

When we look at the different states of life such as marriage and consecrated virginity or the religious state and say that one state is better or more perfect than another, we are looking at these states in themselves or objectively speaking. But God doesn’t call everyone to the same state of life obviously such as the religious state or would we have no people for marriage and to procreate children to add members to the kingdom of God as well as to the religious state.

That state is better and more perfect to which God calls any particular person. If God calls a person to marriage which is the state he calls most people too apparently, than that is the best state for that person to achieve holiness and to do God’s will which is what christian perfection consists in. The states of life and the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience are not of the essence of the perfection of the christian life which consists in charity and doing the will of God at all times. Any person in any state of life is called to holiness, sanctity, and the pursuit of the perfection of charity which can be had in any state of life and which can reach to very lofty degrees of the perfection of charity. The number of saints canonized from all walks of life bears witness to this. The evangelical counsels of Christ such as poverty, chastity, and obedience which religious vow in imitation of Christ and for the sake of the kingdom of heaven remove exterior and various obstacles as it were in the pursuit of the perfection of charity but they are not of the essence of christian perfection as I have said. All christians can and should practice the evangelical counsels in spirit and in varying degrees according to their particular state in life.

Concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity, this is not debatable. It’s a dogma of the Church and we can believe it with 110% certainty as a truth of the faith revealed by God. Mary has also told us so that she is the ‘ever virgin’ in various apparitions such as to St Juan Diego who had his tilma imprinted with Mary’s image and which is called Our Lady of Guadalupe.

 

[guanophore]

God also made us with rational thought and that our knowledge as a society can increase over time. Their is still value in the idea of these traditions, but to take them literally is a bit silly - to stand by my original sentiment.

It sounds as if you consider your knowledge superior to that offered in Scripture, and that the “society” in which you live is much too sophisticated to be concerned with Divine Revelation.

“the idea of these traditions” as you call it is known to Catholics as Sacred Scripture, and is considered inspired and inerrant. That may seem silly to you.

“There is a way that seems right to a person…” Proverbs 14:12

I think saying this another way is more accurate… It is God who gave her flesh. God first always.

Of course, God created Mary to be the Mother of His Son, and the Son took His flesh from her flesh. This is the whole point of the Theotokos.

your statement definitely seems to imply that having relations would somehow defile the Incarnation and God’s presence and action.

Mary’s womb was set aside, consecrated to be a Holy Vessel for Jesus. Just as the temple vessels were never returned to profane (daily worldly use) after they were consecrated for use in the temple, so Mary’s body was never returned to the way of all women after she had borne the Son of God into the world.

Do you believe that if Mary and Joseph had normal relations, that would be an insult to God?

In the same way that using the temple vessels for a birthday party. Lack of understanding and appreciation of the Holy.

What is a rational person to do?

What silly tradition! Surely we are much too sophisticated for such things!

 

[guanophore]

We simply do not know…mans desire to fill in the gaps with legend and pious archetypal rationalisations subjectively typical of any given age is understandable.

You can certainly choose not to accept the knowledge that has been given. Each soul can choose to rebel against Divine Revelation. God offers knowledge, He does not force it.

You can choose to believe that what God has revealed does not exist, and instead, there is a “gap”. This, in itself, if a rationalization that subjectively fills. It is understandable.

But to turn off critical discerment and forget that we just do not know is to fly in the face of an uncertainty God clearly expects us to bear.

Certainly it may seem that your critical discernment is superior to what God has revealed to humankind. There are many uncertainties in life, but what God has revealed to us is not among them.

Lets not guild the lily or indulge our own pious exaggerations or personal religious sentimentalities

Accepting divine revelation is not a personal religious sentimentality. It is an act of humility.

The only docility required by Catholics (in the face of “we dont know”) is to hold to what is true and to the Magisterium - not personal, subjective, singular versions of “tradition” or interpretations of Scripture.

One has to wonder if you know what the Church actually teaches. You are claiming something as “unknown” that is taught by the Magisterium as revealed by God.

And the truth here is … we simply do not know the answer to many issues raised on this thread and we may all therefore loosely hold differing views where the Magisterium is silent.

Except that there has not been silence at all on this point. You just don’t seem to want to accept it.

The Church affirms the perpetual virginity of Mary as dogma.

But maybe they had cuddles and kisses?

??? Why would you say this.

She missed the part about how the Magisterium was silent about Mary and Joseph spooning.

You should clarify.

I think she is referring to sensual physical contact? Or maybe non-intercourse sex? Touching with clothes on? (Cuddles) Non-genital relations (kisses?).

 

[guanophore]

Had you done so, given I name myself Catholic, you would have been able to sort this out this storm in a teacup misunderstanding of yours for yourself I suggest.

You are apparently unaware that there are a majority of American “Catholics” who are only nominally such. Many have lost their Catholicity, and some never received it.

A man and a woman who do not intend to share the marriage embrace sleeping together and cuddling and kissing would constitute what the Church calls a near occasion of sin.

In suggesting that the two may have engaged in such behavior, you refute the Church’s position that Joseph was her “most chaste spouse”.

There is no reason to believe either Mary or Joseph denied the procreative end of marriage.

I have to confess, this sure does give the impression that you don’t believe in perpetual virginity.

 

[toddy]

Mother Mary loved God with all her heart and so God chose her to be earth mother of Christ. Grace is light and whoever possesses it knows what is good and useful.

Mother Mary, full of grace, knew everything. The whole One and Trine Grace was in her. Wisdom that is Grace taught her. She knew how to live holy way.

St Joseph was holy person and consecrated to the Lord as His request for the coming of Messiah. He refused the marriage, but Holy Spirit chose Him to marry Mother Mary, then he was just a protector and quietly divorced after the marriage. They kept God’s plan as top secret until Jesus launched His mission.

 

[Francis]

God also made us with rational thought and that our knowledge as a society can increase over time. Their is still value in the idea of these traditions, but to take them literally is a bit silly - to stand by my original sentiment. For instance, I wouldn’t read the creation narrative in Genesis literally… would you?

Luke 1:3737 For nothing will be impossible with God.”

2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,that’s what happens when every person keeps interpreting Scripture on their own

** Only The Catholic Church has the sole right to interpret the scriptures and to correct errors Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son** **2 Timothy 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.7

 

[Francis]

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s wrong.
Just, it doesn’t really matter to me.
But as for Mary being a virgin, so what really? She isn’t a goddess and she would have passions. If she married Joseph I feel like it would be more wrong for her not to shown intimacy to him than being a married virgin.

well it may not really matter to you,but it was God’s Plan for the salvation of human race ,without her cooperating to the will God it was not passable, ,http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm she is our Mother in the order of grace **[967 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, **she is the “exemplary realization” ( typus )510 of the Church.1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God, because Mary was united to the Lord and suffered along with her Son for our salvation ,it matters because if one repentant sinners turns to god there is rejoicing in heaven for she is constantly interceding to her son for our salvation.Luke 7:35 Nevertheless, wisdom(Mother Mary) is vindicated by all her children.”Wisdom 7:22 for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me There is in her(Mary) a spirit that is intelligent, holy,unique, manifold, subtle,mobile, clear, unpolluted,distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen,irresistible, 23 beneficent, humane,steadfast, sure, free from anxiety,all-powerful, overseeing all,and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent, pure, and altogether subtle.24 For wisdom(Mary) is more mobile than any motion;because of her(Mary) pureness she(Mary) pervades and penetrates all things.
25 For she(Mary) is a breath of the power of God,and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;therefore nothing defiled (Sinful)gains entrance into her(Mary).

It was God plan of salvation that Mary and Joseph lead a Chaste life for the salvation of human race
973 By pronouncing her “fiat” at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

 

[Francis]

Continuation…

975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” (Paul VI, CPG § 15).
As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143 508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. “Full of grace”, Mary is “the most excellent fruit of redemption” ( SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

509 Mary is truly “Mother of God” since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

510 Mary “remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin” (St. Augustine, Serm . 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is “the handmaid of the Lord” ( Lk 1:38).

511 The Virgin Mary “cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation” (LG 56). She uttered her yes “in the name of all human nature” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

 

[Francis]

Married couples can have sex and be chaste…

Well it was God’s Plan for her to live a virgin so did St Joseph ,God had granted them singular grace for the salvation of the human race and in bring forth and caring for Jesus and for the spiritual children (humankind) like you and me too.

The new Eve Mother Mary Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married Matthew 19:12 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy (satan’s children =wicked people, anti-Christ ) seed and her (Mary) seed (Jesus and Christians): she shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.