Did Mary stay virgin?

[StPatsSI10]

Did Mary stay a virgin her whole life?? What is the official teaching on this???

Thank you

 

[po18guy]

Yes. Officially.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It is an absolutely great book for learning the details (and the basics) of the faith. I learn something each time I open it.

 

[Robertanthony]

Yes. Officially.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism-For-Dummies-Religion-Spirituality/dp/1118077784/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331779264&sr=8-1"]Catholicism for Dummies

? It is an absolutely great book for learning the details (and the basics) of the faith. I learn something each time I open it.

OP, whatever you do, please don’t take this personally!

 

[po18guy]

You will undoubdtedly hear the old Matthew 1:25 “until” argument, as well as the “brothers” and “sisters” arguments. Yet, in that culture, anyone from your town, or even from your nation was known as a brother or sister. It is still that way in much of the world today.

Consider this from the bible: Abraham and Lot were uncle and nephew. We see that from Genesis 11:26-31. Yet, during a dispute, Abraham says to Lot “…for we are brothers” (Genesis 13:8). How do we explain this?

In Luke 1:38, Mary vowed before the archangel Gabriel that she was the “handmaid” or “bond slave” of the Lord. Her Son, Jesus, is that Lord. Elizabeth, by the power of the Holy Spirit, called Mary “the mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43). If Mary had other children, she could not have been the handmaid of the Lord.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Did Mary stay a virgin her whole life?? What is the official teaching on this???

Thank you

She did and it is dogmatic teaching.

There is no evidence in scripture of the opposing opinion, early Christians defended her ever virginity and never spoke of any children, the protoevangelium of James explains her special consecration to the Temple and is anti-biblical to say she was with man as the prophecy states,

[BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 44:1-3[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[hosemonkey]

Did Mary stay a virgin her whole life?? What is the official teaching on this???

Thank you

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been Catholic?

 

[po18guy]

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been Catholic?

Wow! Been awhile! Good to see you back at it.

 

[hosemonkey]

Wow! Been awhile! Good to see you back at it.

Good to see you again too.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I never did figure out why this should matter to any Christian. It matters to the Church because it is an article of dogma. But why in God’s Green Earth, should I care whether she remained virgin as an issue in absolutely any relationship I have with any human being, including her and Jesus? So yes, I should care about it because it is a church teaching – IMO of questionable strategic value in terms of going about a Christlike life. I don’t recall Jesus in the gospels telling us this, so maybe it isn’t top priority for those who were commanded by the Father to “Listen To Him.”

Alan

 

[LilyM]

I never did figure out why this should matter to any Christian. It matters to the Church because it is an article of dogma. But why in God’s Green Earth, should I care whether she remained virgin as an issue in absolutely any relationship I have with any human being, including her and Jesus? So yes, I should care about it because it is a church teaching – IMO of questionable strategic value in terms of going about a Christlike life. I don’t recall Jesus in the gospels telling us this, so maybe it isn’t top priority for those who were commanded by the Father to “Listen To Him.”

Alan

All the Marian dogmas are critically important, because they are fundamentally about who Christ was and is.

See, if Mary is presented as being just like any ordinary mother (possibly not a virgin before she married, a normal sinner who would teach her child to sin, a mother of numerous other perfectly ordinary children) then how can it possibly be true that this one son of hers (and Joseph’s? Hers and some random dude’s?) is God incarnate?

 

[po18guy]

Good to see you again too.

Thank you. It is nice to be anywhere at this point.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

All the Marian dogmas are critically important, because they are fundamentally about who Christ was and is.

To me, what’s important first and foremost is that we abide by Jesus’s lessons. If I were going to get a black belt in karate, all I have to do is believe in the teacher and trust enough to accept advice from the teacher. I don’t have to know precisely “who the teacher is.”

Again, it’s critically important, but I say it is in an academic sense.

See, if Mary is presented as being just like any ordinary mother (possibly not a virgin before she married, a normal sinner who would teach her child to sin, a mother of numerous other perfectly ordinary children) then how can it possibly be true that this one son of hers (and Joseph’s? Hers and some random dude’s?) is God incarnate?

Why would I assume that? Jesus made humanity itself; I think He could have arranged for anything He wanted to for His mother. I don’t see how “perfect” implies “born of a virgin mother.” Jesus could have been a test tube baby as far as I’m concerned, and He is no more or less the way, truth, and light and I should listen to Him no more or less.

Alan

 

[po18guy]

To me, what’s important first and foremost is that we abide by Jesus’s lessons. If I were going to get a black belt in karate, all I have to do is believe in the teacher and trust enough to accept advice from the teacher. I don’t have to know precisely “who the teacher is.”

Again, it’s critically important, but I say it is in an academic sense.

Why would I assume that? Jesus made humanity itself; I think He could have arranged for anything He wanted to for His mother. I don’t see how “perfect” implies “born of a virgin mother.” Jesus could have been a test tube baby as far as I’m concerned, and He is no more or less the way, truth, and light and I should listen to Him no more or less.

Alan

Alan,

Mary’s virginal state should matter to you because it is part of what the Church teaches. Church teaching is a seamless garment, and we cannot rip some threads out because we do not believe them to be as important as other threads. Each bit of the weave holds the others together. If you believe a single word the Church teaches, you are called to give intellectual assent to the entirety of Church teaching. If you doubt even one bit, then you cast doubt upon the whole of it.

Are you a convert, or do you just have the “Mary problem”?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Alan,

Mary’s virginal state should matter to you because it is part of what the Church teaches.

In an academic sense, yes. In a day-to-day sense, no.

Church teaching is a seamless garment, and we cannot rip some threads out because we do not believe them to be as important as other threads. Each bit of the weave holds the others together. If you believe a single word the Church teaches, you are called to give intellectual assent to the entirety of Church teaching. If you doubt even one bit, then you cast doubt upon the whole of it.

Maybe so. That’s for the scholars to deal with, though. Seems inefficient for me down here in the trenches to spend a great deal of time on matters I’m not even going to know enough to know why something matters.

Are you a convert, or do you just have the “Mary problem”?

Neither. It’s just that my devotion to Mary does not factor in her sex life or lack thereof. I don’t obey my boss at work because I know about his mother’s medical condition; I obey it because he’s my boss. Same reason I listen to Jesus –
honestly I don’t care how God got us to this point; I care what we are supposed to do with our own lives an energy in the here and now.

And my point isn’t so much about “doubting” her virginity, but just saying “it’s not my job to investigate,” or like the CIA, “I can neither confirm nor deny.” Would you say to Jesus, “Teacher, I’ve heard your mother has never been with a man. Can you tell me more about it?” My guess is most of us wouldn’t.

Alan

 

[lutherlic]

Yes.

Relevant comments on scripture from ScriptureCatholic.com:

Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

 

[po18guy]

In an academic sense, yes. In a day-to-day sense, no. Maybe so. That’s for the scholars to deal with, though. Seems inefficient for me down here in the trenches to spend a great deal of time on matters I’m not even going to know enough to know why something matters. Neither. It’s just that my devotion to Mary does not factor in her sex life or lack thereof. I don’t obey my boss at work because I know about his mother’s medical condition; I obey it because he’s my boss. Same reason I listen to Jesus – honestly I don’t care how God got us to this point; I care what we are supposed to do with our own lives an energy in the here and now. And my point isn’t so much about “doubting” her virginity, but just saying “it’s not my job to investigate,” or like the CIA, “I can neither confirm nor deny.” Would you say to Jesus, “Teacher, I’ve heard your mother has never been with a man. Can you tell me more about it?” My guess is most of us wouldn’t.
Alan

How about this: “Yes, I currently have my doubts”?

 

[TimothyH]

I never did figure out why this should matter to any Christian. It matters to the Church because it is an article of dogma. But why in God’s Green Earth, should I care whether she remained virgin as an issue in absolutely any relationship I have with any human being, including her and Jesus? So yes, I should care about it because it is a church teaching – IMO of questionable strategic value in terms of going about a Christlike life. I don’t recall Jesus in the gospels telling us this, so maybe it isn’t top priority for those who were commanded by the Father to “Listen To Him.”

Alan

It is important in the life of a Christian for many reasons.

One example is Jesus’ teaching about marriage. Mary had a child by one spouse - the Holy Spirit. For her to have a child by another would make her an adulterer. We are commanded by Christ to take one spouse, and that spouse is to be taken for life.

We listen to Jesus in many ways, including by using our minds and meditating on the facts and drawing logical conclusions. Our minds are gifts from God.

-Tim-

 

[AlanFromWichita]

How about this: “Yes, I currently have my doubts”?

I would have said that if it was what I meant.

I have no doubts, I just don’t care. I don’t see what intimate knowledge of Mary’s medical history does for me in terms of my ability to follow Jesus. Getting hung up on academic details is a stumbling block in itself and certainly is of no merit, as scripture clearly indicates. How can you read 1 Cor 13 and then tell me that someone else must busy themselves learning and memorizing what the scholars say? St. Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms what our priorities should be.

Alan

 

[Erich]

Perhaps these links will help:

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant

 

[Faith1960]

It is important in the life of a Christian for many reasons.

One example is Jesus’ teaching about marriage. Mary had a child by one spouse - the Holy Spirit. For her to have a child by another would make her an adulterer. We are commanded by Christ to take one spouse, and that spouse is to be taken for life.

We listen to Jesus in many ways, including by using our minds and meditating on the facts and drawing logical conclusions. Our minds are gifts from God.

-Tim-

Oded Golan, the man on trial in Jerusalem for forging the ossuary marked as, and claimed to be, the burial box of Jesus’ brother James, was acquitted today. What does that mean, or will it mean, for our faith if it’s ever determined that Jesus had a brother and or other siblings?