Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[TimothyH]

History will record that the use of “mobile devices” was the initiator of the end of comprehensible human language.

IDK y we hv 2 b lk ths? GTG

-T-

 

[GaryTaylor]

IDK y we hv 2 b lk ths? GTG

-T-

Exactly we developed all kinds of devices to “save time” how did we make out?

 

[stewstew03]

IDK y we hv 2 b lk ths? GTG

-T-

T, luv it
ttyl

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Who said she did not need a savior? That is what I would like to know first?

Ha ha! Good point! We all blew right past it. How many contentious threads have begun based on a misunderstanding?

Well it is true. I would like to know “who” is the person or persons claiming Mary did not need a Savior? When (year) and where (location) did this person or persons come to such a conclusion?

 

[po18guy]

Well it is true. I would like to know “who” is the person or persons claiming Mary did not need a Savior? When (year) and where (location) did this person or persons come to such a conclusion?

Since she declared it to Elizabeth in scripture! All flesh needs a savior - it is just the timing of that salvation that differs.

 

[Nicea325]

Since she declared it to Elizabeth in scripture! All flesh needs a savior - it is just the timing of that salvation that differs.

I agree. I just do not understand why Mary is such an issue for so many non-Catholics?

 

[po18guy]

I agree. I just do not understand why Mary is such an issue for so many non-Catholics?

As Mark Shea, Catholic convert and author of Mary, Mother of the Son says, “Mary looks much bigger from outside the Church than she does from inside” It is a natural hesitancy that non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians feel. They have been raised on all of the solas and many cannot see past those limiting doctrines. Yet, Catholicism is not the “either-or” choice that they fear it to be. As with all things God, it is a “both-and” choice.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

As a Catholic kid … I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times… Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

(name removed by moderator)ut?

That is not a logical conclusion to draw from the text. Mary was conceived without sin, but the question still begs to be answered… HOW was she conceived without sin. The answer was articulated in the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, when Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

Mary was being absolutely honest and sincere when she proclaimed, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.” (emphasis added) (Lk 1:46-48) Mary was indeed in need of the Savior’'s grace. She simply received that grace in a very unique way, not because of her own merit, but because it pleased the Lord to do so.

 

[david_ruiz]

As Mark Shea, Catholic convert and author of Mary, Mother of the Son

says, “Mary looks much bigger from outside the Church than she does from inside” It is a natural hesitancy that non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians feel. They have been raised on all of the solas and many cannot see past those limiting doctrines. Yet, Catholicism is not the “either-or” choice that they fear it to be. As with all things God, it is a “both-and” choice.

Thank-you .I think both sides can have the either /or attitude instead of " both- and". For instance ,many think Protestants have no veneration or admiration for Mary at all .I believe to have a better and deeper understanding of Mary now ,but more as a sister in the faith .But yes, I think of her less often, but not because I am not thinking of something else spiritual.
Many see the protestant walk as very “dry” , as you quote with a lot of “solas”, and limited in experience .That is what I use to say about Christianity in general before I was saved. Actually, we do have a more narrow walk , but with as great a depth as anyone else. It is like you having ten friends/ looking at someone with only several thinking they are missing out on 8 other friends .In actuality they may be just as happy and fulfilled with more time with two friends as one with more friends but less time with each one .Both scenarios can look at each other with an either /or attitude, or with an both-and attitude.

 

[po18guy]

Thank-you .I think both sides can have the either /or attitude instead of " both- and". For instance ,many think Protestants have no veneration or admiration for Mary at all .I believe to have a better and deeper understanding of Mary now ,but more as a sister in the faith .But yes, I think of her less often, but not because I am not thinking of something else spiritual.
Many see the protestant walk as very “dry” , as you quote with a lot of “solas”, and limited in experience .That is what I use to say about Christianity in general before I was saved. Actually, we do have a more narrow walk , but with as great a depth as anyone else. It is like you having ten friends/ looking at someone with only several thinking they are missing out on 8 other friends .In actuality they may be just as happy and fulfilled with more time with two friends as one with more friends but less time with each one .Both scenarios can look at each other with an either /or attitude, or with an both-and attitude.

As with many Catholic converts, I had the “Mary problem” for years. Then all of a sudden, at a Catholic bible study, several verses all came together and it just vanished.

When you realize that Jesus conceived of and created His own mother specifically to carry, raise and accompany him His entire life, it places Mary in a totally different light. We do tend to think as man does and not as God does in this regard.

 

[Nicea325]

As with many Catholic converts, I had the “Mary problem” for years. Then all of a sudden, at a Catholic bible study, several verses all came together and it just vanished. When you realize that Jesus conceived of and created His own mother specifically to carry, raise and accompany him His entire life, it places Mary in a totally different light. We do tend to think as man does and not as God does in this regard.

Yep! Even St. Paul stresses it in 1 Cor: 2

Chapter 2
The gospel is preached by the power of the Spirit—The Spirit reveals all things to the Saints—The unrepentant natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, **not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, **that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e]But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[david_ruiz]

As with many Catholic converts, I had the “Mary problem” for years. Then all of a sudden, at a Catholic bible study, several verses all came together and it just vanished.

When you realize that Jesus conceived of and created His own mother specifically to carry, raise and accompany him His entire life, it places Mary in a totally different light. We do tend to think as man does and not as God does in this regard.

Thank-you .I guess we are full odds yet in the same boat. We both feel the other has a “Mary problem”, that Scripture/ Spirit/Study has enlightened us about her, and that there is God’s view and man’s view about her…

 

[po18guy]

Thank-you .I guess we are full odds yet in the same boat. We both feel the other has a “Mary problem”, that Scripture/ Spirit/Study has enlightened us about her, and that there is God’s view and man’s view about her…

Since Jesus created her to be His mother, and to accompany Him his entire life, think about where the attacks on her come from. None of the reformers had anything bad to say about her - most holding fast to what the Catholic Church taught. Only recently has the effort been put forth to undermine her special status. Jesus Himself honored her long before man did. He honored her within the Divine intellect. Since the reformers believed in her virginity throughout life, and since scripture is consistent with this holding, what has man lost through spiritual attack in the 495 years since the reformers split off?

 

[Trebor135]

Since Jesus created her to be His mother, and to accompany Him his entire life, think about where the attacks on her come from. None of the reformers had anything bad to say about her - most holding fast to what the Catholic Church taught. Only recently has the effort been put forth to undermine her special status. Jesus Himself honored her long before man did. He honored her within the Divine intellect. Since the reformers believed in her virginity throughout life, and since scripture is consistent with this holding, what has man lost through spiritual attack in the 495 years since the reformers split off?

Amen.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a Catholic kid … I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times… Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

(name removed by moderator)ut?

Saved? I won’t go into that. So in consideration that you choose to believe in being saved and with respect to Mary you offer one possibility that Mary did not need a Savior.

Elizabeth as you recall made mention that Mary was the mother of my Lord. If He was Lord in the Womb as we believe He was Lord before entering the womb and exiting the womb, made flesh.

And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

Once a Lord, always a Lord.

You say that Mary was without sin because she was conceived without sin thus suggesting that the Lord could not create someone without sin. Do you put limits on Our Lord? Adam and Eve were saved before they were lost and as we know Paul calls Jesus the new Adam and we believe Mary to be the new Eve and thus her Lord created her, saved her at conception. Is that so hard to accept when you believe in Miracles.

If the only Salvation that is avalaible at the Cross and redemption then when Elizabeth met Mary she announced the mother of our Lord filled with sin carrying Our Lord. Our Lord resided in a sin filled vessical according to this line of thinking. I just cannot accept that. Salvation is by Christ, through Christ, through the Son by the Son for the Son and the Son is eternal…

 

[pablope]

Thank-you .I guess we are full odds yet in the same boat. We both feel the other has a “Mary problem”, that Scripture/ Spirit/Study has enlightened us about her, and that there is God’s view and man’s view about her…

I would further split you last passage…“man’s view about her”…between those who of the:

Catholics-and like minded non-Catholics…who profess love and honor for Mary, same as Jesus…

and those Non-catholics-who attack catholics and the like minded non-catholics for their love and honor of Mary.

 

[david_ruiz]

You say that Mary was without sin because she was conceived without sin thus suggesting that the Lord could not create someone without sin. Do you put limits on Our Lord If the only Salvation that is avalaible at the Cross and redemption then when Elizabeth met Mary she announced the mother of our Lord filled with sin carrying Our Lord. Our Lord resided in a sin filled vessical according to this line of thinking. I just cannot accept that.?

My friend both sides could be seen as limiting .Did not Job say God is even in hell ? At what point do you stop keeping the Lord in a “perfect” vessel ? At some point He had to come into contact with sinful flesh /substances.The ground He walked on ,the food he ate ,the clothes that were on his back ,were they also perfect,specially dispensated ? Is it so hard to believe that God would enter a sinful world ,a sinful maiden, a sinful person like my self to indwell ? Both ways are miraculous and full of grace.

 

[david_ruiz]

I would further split you last passage…“man’s view about her”…between those who of the:

Catholics-and like minded non-Catholics…who profess love and honor for Mary, same as Jesus…

and those Non-catholics-who attack catholics and the like minded non-catholics for their love and honor of Mary.

I am sorry you are offended or feel attacked by how others honor Mary .This thread is after all for those of non-catholics to share there views. Again, thank-you for letting me share, and forgive me if I seemed offensive to the Catholic faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

ground

He walked on ,the** food** he ate ,the clothes that were on his back ,were they also perfect,specially dispensated ? Is it so hard to believe that God would **enter a sinful world **,a sinful maiden, a **sinful person like my self to indwell **? Both ways are miraculous and full of grace.

D. R.,

You are not serious about world, ground, food, clothes as matters of sin are you? Did Job say God was in hell and what does that have to do with anything? Concerning yourself…do not Protestants believe that they must be regenerated prior to that indwelling? Some Protestants believe that they are dung heaps covered by snow. Your thoughts stray.

Yes it is hard to believe that Jesus enter a sinful maiden. It is easy for you to believe that Jesus entered a sinful maiden. We are at an impasse.

There are many that once believed as you do and have changed their minds. No one can change your mind except you.

 

[david_ruiz]

Just as serious as those saying God ,being holy ,can not “mix” with sinful flesh …hence the need for an immaculate conception .As I said before I do not believe the unborn child “mixes” with any flesh.,except for dna.

Concerning yourself…do not Protestants believe that they must be regenerated prior to that indwelling?

Very good pick-up It would be like this: suppose His next coming would be thru a maiden .Yet this maiden was a devout catholic-baptized confirmed and up to the minute confessed etc ,would her sins be forgiven ,would she be “clean” before the Lord ,enough to birth Him ? Or would all that not be enough ,requiring a special dispensation of her own conception? See what is implied is that the method of sanctification and justification were inadequate in the old testament. You are correct, in the new we are born again, just as in the old (called regeneration) Hence the Spirit sups with a regenerated heart, spirit soul (yet the sinful flesh.mortal remains) Paul says justification remains constant in the old and new via faith in the promised one .They looked forward and we look backward (to Calvary) for justification .Again, the implication is that this was not enough for Mary that indeed the shedding of blood was not enough to cleanse her, though it was for David ,Abraham ,Enoch Elijah and Job (who was perfect) No one is saying God enetred an unregenerated sinful soul ,a heathen , but a young Jewish maiden washed by the future blood of the Lamb, via faith ,and full of grace.