Did Mohammed Really Believe The Bible Was Corrupt?

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From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, [101] devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.
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This may be the Nestorian monk Bahira (George or Sergius) who met the boy Mohammed at Bostra in Syria and claimed to recognize in him the sign of a prophet.
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chaldeansonline.org/Banipal/English/karmo5.html

Thank you for that link. I ran across a reference to Sergius several months ago while reading Ethan Smith’s Key to Revelation. olivercowdery.com/texts/ethn1833.htm

Some very interesting connections!! 😉
 
Kouyate42 said:
Assalaamu 'aleikum!

It is best understood that the Islamic world does not accept the current Bible as you would know it within the Catholic Church and in the Jewish world as the one which was given to the prophets Musa (Moses), 'Isa (Jesus), Ibrahim (Abraham) and others. The generally accepted belief is that the original gospels were subject to editing, additions and substractions from their original texts, rendering them corrupt.

Rather, the references to Tawrah and Injil (Tawrah and Gospels) are references to this original revelation, something which the teachings of the various prophets in the Qur’an itself aim to restore as the correct form of worship.

Take 'Isa (Jesus). Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, and indeed Isa is highly important in Islam. Muslims love Jesus/'Isa as much as Christians. However the Islamic view is that the view of Jesus as Son of Allah is a blasphemy and so the Biblical teachings on this are seen to be a later addition.

The Jesus of the Qur’an was a man, born of a mortal mother (Maryam), who was subject to the will of Allah as much as any other man. He prayed to and asked Allah for guidance. He was not a god in his own right.

Any further questions, I will happily answer.

EDIT: i should add that the Qur’an, being the final revelation, is intended by Allah to ‘correct’ these errors in the earlier books, and being perfectly preserved, is a perfect book. And so the ‘benchmark’ for any Islamic study of the BIble is the Qur’an.
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Interesting view.
 
An answer to the title of the thread, did Mohammed Really Believe the Bible Was Corrupt? No, not that I know of. There is no reference by Mohammad that the Bible was corrupt even at his time nor the Quran says it. There is mentioned that some bad Christians changed some parts of the Bible but on the whole the good ones were faithful to the word.

How the Bible got to get this review is definitely not from Mohammad but later Muslim scholars, probably around the early tenth century, who found it hard to reconcile the contradiction in the Bible and Quran story. And therefore, the Bible must be corrupt and the Quran is right. Of course they could not offer any evidence where, when and how the Bible is corrupt because there was none and it was not taught as so by Mohammad.

In my own experience with Muslims, they seem unable to really defend their own claim and when they could not move on to answer you, it will inevitably led to abuse that will result in the thread being closed. It is not unusual to get an exclamation like, ‘it is pointless’, change the topic and start attacking Christianity.

In the other thread what is indefensible is the claim that the Quran is unchanged word of Allah spoken verbatim and that all Quran (as a book) is the same. Evidence shows us it is not but there are often weak and sometimes illogical arguments to support that claim.
 
Marybeloved said:
Who really cares what Mohammed thought about the authenticity of Christian and Jewish Scriptures? I’m supposed to believe the testimony of some guy in the middle of Arabia, far from Jerusalem and 6 centuries removed from the events of the Gospels OVER the eye-witnesses of the events themselves? Why? Just because he said he saw an angel that no one else but him could see and that he made trips to heaven that no-one else but him could see and that that angel gave him the verses he recited to the Arabs? No thanks.

I’ll take the word of St. Peter, St. John and the others any day, than the word of a guy who had absolutely zero knowledge or connection in history, time or geography to the events of the Gospels. 👍
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There are some (in a particular Middle Eastern country) who don’t believe the Holocaust happened (during World War II) and they are only 50 years (from the time they could be the age of reason atleast) removed from the actual events.

Just imagine what 600 years after the actual events can do:eek:

Although Id like to add that there are sincere Muslims who through no fault of their own try to live their lives molded to fearing God. Just too bad they don’t really question their teachers. 😦

MJ
 
Augustine3 said:
I’ve tried google searching “Heresies in Epitome” within “Fount of Knowledge” to get a greater context but couldn’t find it…can you please provide me the link that contains it within “Fount of Knowledge”?

God bless,
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I tried abebooks.com, a central website for sellers of used books all over the world. Neither came up, so I searched by author [St. John of Damascus] and got 127 results; a lot were duplicates. There was Saint John of Damascus: Writings which might be a possibility, but there is no way of telling since there is no information on book content as in amazon.com. I have purchased over a half-dozen books through that site and have had good results. My conclusion is that if it isn’t listed with them, it is probably too old, and no one has a copy. Amazon does have a number of books by him, including Saint John of Damascus: Writings plus some by other authors on the same topic.You might also try your local library. Many are part of a network which makes books available to card-holders of a library in the network.

Good luck, and let me know if you find a copy.
 
Simon62 said:
I would suggest all moslems or would be moslems read the Koran thoroughly and try and understand the meaning of each word. Then, go get a Catholic Bible and read it and understand each word and see what happens.
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I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, partially in Hebrew and fully in Greek and Latin. It makes little sense to me.
jerry_joseph said:
If you make an argument that bible is edited, then you should provide proof for when it was edited ?, where ?, by whom?, at which year?,

Blind arguments without any supporting evidences are not valid… Quran does not mentions that christians editted bible… It is only teachings of muslim leaders that christians editted bible…

One thing is sure , the Quran which is presently available is written at the time of Caliph Utman. He wrote the Quran and destroyed other existing versions… There is proof in the history that destruction of other versions of Quran…
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This argument is one I’m sick and tired of refuting, time and time again.

Caliph Uthman didn’t ‘write’ anything. At the time of his rule, he had heard serious errors in the recitation of the Qur’an by different tribes, due in part to their different dialectical forms of the Arabic language, or for some because Arabic was not their first language, and certainly not one they spoke on a regular basis. And so there were serious grammatical and pronounciation errors, which in turn were causing disputes.

All Uthman did was speak with the Sahaba or the Companions of the Holy Prophet (saw) and with their help, restore the text to the original Quraishi form of Arabic which was used in the revelations and which Muhammad (saw) himself spoke. These companions, having memorized the entire Qur’an themselves, were able to recite the Qur’an to scribes and have copies of this grammatically and pronunciation-correct Qur’an sent to the cities under the direction of Uthman.

The other copies were burnt simply to stop stupid arguments happening again and ensure that all Muslims, whether native Arabic-speaking or not, were reading, learning and reciting the same Qur’an.
 
Kouyate42 said:
I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, partially in Hebrew and fully in Greek and Latin. It makes little sense to me.

This argument is one I’m sick and tired of refuting, time and time again.

Caliph Uthman didn’t ‘write’ anything. At the time of his rule, he had heard serious errors in the recitation of the Qur’an by different tribes, due in part to their different dialectical forms of the Arabic language, or for some because Arabic was not their first language, and certainly not one they spoke on a regular basis. And so there were serious grammatical and pronounciation errors, which in turn were causing disputes.

All Uthman did was speak with the Sahaba or the Companions of the Holy Prophet (saw) and with their help, restore the text to the original Quraishi form of Arabic which was used in the revelations and which Muhammad (saw) himself spoke. These companions, having memorized the entire Qur’an themselves, were able to recite the Qur’an to scribes and have copies of this grammatically and pronunciation-correct Qur’an sent to the cities under the direction of Uthman.

The other copies were burnt simply to stop stupid arguments happening again and ensure that all Muslims, whether native Arabic-speaking or not, were reading, learning and reciting the same Qur’an.
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If you are tired of refuting this, then I humbly suggest your respond to numerous points I and others have made on this and other threads that you seem to ignore. Or, you could follow my suggestion that you could create a thread detailing the “errors” you have found in Christianity. Either or should resolve your problem of repeatedly answering the same question over and over again.
 
Armyvet007 said:
If you are tired of refuting this, then I humbly suggest your respond to numerous points I and others have made on this and other threads that you seem to ignore. Or, you could follow my suggestion that you could create a thread detailing the “errors” you have found in Christianity. Either or should resolve your problem of repeatedly answering the same question over and over again.
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Bugging me isn’t going to help, is it? I promise that I will answer your questions and others I have been asked at some point in time.

But what’s the point, given that I’ve got a feeling no-one reads my posts when I DO answer reasonably, or at least reads them and takes no notice.
 
Kouyate42 said:
Bugging me isn’t going to help, is it? I promise that I will answer your questions and others I have been asked at some point in time.

But what’s the point, given that I’ve got a feeling no-one reads my posts when I DO answer reasonably, or at least reads them and takes no notice.
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Most of my points that you have failed to answer come directly from me responding to your posts. The same is true for others who have responded directly to your posts. Your posts are being read, it’s just you don’t like the response so you ignore them. The fact is, you seem only to respond to posts in which you can find a ready made answer for.
 
Fascinating…
Kouyate42:
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I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, partially in Hebrew and fully in Greek and Latin. It makes little sense to me.
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At the ripe age of 23 and you’ve read the Bible cover to cover fully in Greek & Latin…

Very impressive…

:rolleyes:
 
Kouyate42 said:
I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, partially in Hebrew and fully in Greek and Latin. It makes little sense to me.
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With respect, I find this hard to believe.

Sure, you could have read it, but did you understand it?
 
Wow if you’ve read the Bible cover to cover in Hebrew Greek and Latin, as well as the Quran… you either have incredible abilities at learning languages at a level far above what is considered enough to be “fluent” (since the Bible uses impressive terminology), or you are lying about your age!! ^_-

Anyway, Kouyate, I want to extend some gratitude to you for showing courage in representing your faith and jumping straight into the Catholic forums. I for one actually read your posts, and you do have sound arguments when you make them =)

As a Catholic that is studying the difference between many religions, their origins, historical authenticity, etc, I can see where Islam gets some of its main points about corruption of the Bible throughout the ages. However, I urge you strongly that, since you’re at such a young age (you and I are the same age actually), that you have an open mind and heart when you read some of the topics and arguments here. I’m not saying “Hey listen to us and convert!” but since we are both students under One God, I hope that both of us find that Truth. (I’m sure you and I both think we’ve found it already, but one of us has to be wrong! ^^)

Anyway, good luck, and I hope that at some other point we’ll be able to have a friendly chat or debate!
 
Kouyate42 said:
Bugging me isn’t going to help, is it? I promise that I will answer your questions and others I have been asked at some point in time.

But what’s the point, given that I’ve got a feeling no-one reads my posts when I DO answer reasonably, or at least reads them and takes no notice.
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I hope I haven’t been a nuisance to you 😊

I was hoping you would answer my previous questions. I posted them on an Islamic forum but no one could offer a reasonable answer…
Augustine3 said:
Thanks for responding. However your answer does not make much sense, the verses I have pointed out do not imply reference to the original scriptures…

How could God ask Mohammed if he had doubts consult those that have been reading scripture if they have the corrupt scripture?
How could God charge the people of the Gospel to judge if their Gospel is corrupt?
Mohammed challenges disbelievers to bring a scripture more guiding than the Quran and the Torah, why would Mohammed propose this challenge if the Torah was corrupt?

God bless,
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Gidras05 said:
Wow if you’ve read the Bible cover to cover in Hebrew Greek and Latin, as well as the Quran… you either have incredible abilities at learning languages at a level far above what is considered enough to be “fluent” (since the Bible uses impressive terminology), or you are lying about your age!! ^_-

Anyway, Kouyate, I want to extend some gratitude to you for showing courage in representing your faith and jumping straight into the Catholic forums. I for one actually read your posts, and you do have sound arguments when you make them =)

As a Catholic that is studying the difference between many religions, their origins, historical authenticity, etc, I can see where Islam gets some of its main points about corruption of the Bible throughout the ages. However, I urge you strongly that, since you’re at such a young age (you and I are the same age actually), that you have an open mind and heart when you read some of the topics and arguments here. I’m not saying “Hey listen to us and convert!” but since we are both students under One God, I hope that both of us find that Truth. (I’m sure you and I both think we’ve found it already, but one of us has to be wrong! ^^)

Anyway, good luck, and I hope that at some other point we’ll be able to have a friendly chat or debate!
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Review Kou’s prior posts. A lot of the points she is currently ignoring “researching”] are very similar to points she herself pointed out prior to becoming Muslim [which appears to be around the end of Jan/start of Feb].
 
Armyvet007 said:
Review Kou’s prior posts. A lot of the points she is currently ignoring “researching”] are very similar to points she herself pointed out prior to becoming Muslim [which appears to be around the end of Jan/start of Feb].
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Wait he just become Muslim? Hm. Didn’t see that coming.

Well, let’s put it this way. If the questions were serious enough that he’s researching, then:

a) Awesome! We’ll have a nice debate!
b) Awesome! He’ll come to see that Catholicism has answers more close to the truth!

If he isn’t actually researching, then I think he’ll realize sooner or later that these same questions NEED to be addressed, or else he’s simply hiding from the truth out of fear. I truly hope that is not the case, and that he is indeed finding ways to construct his argument.

Let’s be patient, and give the benefit of the doubt. Is that not what Jesus taught us? Humility, patience, and let’s not judge others, lest we ignore the wooden beam in our own eye.
 
Augustine3 said:
I hope I haven’t been a nuisance to you 😊

I was hoping you would answer my previous questions. I posted them on an Islamic forum but no one could offer a reasonable answer…
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Nope you have not bee a nuisance but this cannot be said of other users whose sole intention is seemingly to harass me simply for being a Muslim. I will respond to your posts in the morning (promise!) as my laptop battery is on charge and I am currently typing from a Kindle which makes using CAF difficult.

I would ask you though what your source is for these questions (sch as verse references or articles) so I can read them in context.

@jakasaki: Given that I have some 8 years of Greek and 10 years of Latin under my belt, including a degree which included study of the Septuagint for my dissertation, I think I can read the Bible easily. Hey, I can read Homer in the original pretty easily as well asdo my own Latin composition.

I have in the past become conversational in a language in just under a month. It really is a gift.
 
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