Did Moses write Genesis?

[NotWorthy]

To repeat myself yet again (and I have to, since no one else will ), Post 4 addresses this.

Sure, Moses COULD HAVE written the Torah. Since everyone else is going out on a limb, I will too: It’s obvious he did not. The same author wrote Genesis and Leviticus? Nope. Were they both inspired by God? Yep.

To repeat myself yet again (and I have to, I guess, since no one else will).

Doesn’t Jesus Himself testify to Moses authorship. That would make it seem obvious that Moses did write it, until you show me how he couldn’t have.

*“Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father: you have placed your hopes on Moses, and Moses will be the one who accuses you. If you really believed him you would believe me too, since it was about me that he was writing…” *~ Jesus addressing the Jews of Jerusalem in John 5:45-46

 

[cpayne]

Okay, since you’re not buying what I’m saying, I have a different question. If I do not think Moses wrote ALL of the Torah himself, even though he was the primary inspiration for it, am I disbelieving Jesus? In other words, is this a binding question?

 

[buffalo]

Will anyone read this?

The Toledoths of Genesis

… For those biblical scholars who have had the unfortunate experience of having the JEPD theory of the Documentary Hypothesis jammed down their throats the past forty years in Catholic biblical scholarship, and as long since the time of Julius Wellhausen in the late 1800s, this will be a real treat. This article will show what an absolute sham Catholic biblical scholarship has been since the 1960s; how innocent Catholics have been deceived by these pseudo-scholars; and why Catholic students all over the world have lost the faith. After you read this article, if you own Raymond Brown’s “New Jerome Biblical Commentary,” it may come in handy this winter when you need kindling for the fireplace. I hear that liberal biblical scholarship burns especially well. I can just hear those pages crackling now!

more…

 

[NotWorthy]

Okay, since you’re not buying what I’m saying, I have a different question. If I do not think Moses wrote ALL of the Torah himself, even though he was the primary inspiration for it, am I disbelieving Jesus? In other words, is this a binding question?

No, but you made the claim that it’s not. When you say this, it’s not a matter of biblical scholarship, it’s a matter of saying, “Well Jesus said this, but he meant this…” And so far your reasoning is, “Well, it’s obvious that Moses didn’t write it”. What makes it obvious?

My original question is, “Am I the only one that still things Moses wrote nearly all of the Torah”? I asked some questions, and they still haven’t been refuted, other than by reposting “the obvious”.

You sound like there is a good reason for saying the same person didn’t write Leviticus and Genesis. I haven’t seen that reason, yet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ya, you know, 'cause they were stupid and stuff. Real dummies compared to us smart people.

I assume you had some idea you meant to convey here, but whatever it was didn’t come thorugh.

 

[cpayne]

No, but you made the claim that it’s not. When you say this, it’s not a matter of biblical scholarship, it’s a matter of saying, “Well Jesus said this, but he meant this…” And so far your reasoning is, “Well, it’s obvious that Moses didn’t write it”. What makes it obvious?

My original question is, “Am I the only one that still things Moses wrote nearly all of the Torah”? I asked some questions, and they still haven’t been refuted, other than by reposting “the obvious”.

You sound like there is a good reason for saying the same person didn’t write Leviticus and Genesis. I haven’t seen that reason, yet.

When I’m grading student papers, for example, I can pretty easily spot when they are using others’ words: vocabulary choice is a big clue. Consistency of sentence structure is another big clue. Shift of focus is another big clue.

How much does the vocabulary and sentence structure change from Genesis to, say, Leviticus? I don’t know Hebrew, but scholars who do say it changes a lot. The shift of focus is apparent even to me—it goes from a prophet dealing with the massive issues of God and His people, to a priest interested in the minutiae of the priestly sacrifices.

As I said, sure, Moses could have written it all. But it’s not likely, I think, and my basic point is that IT’S NOT IMPORTANT. The important thing is that IT IS STILL INSPIRED BY GOD.

(You know, I don’t like it when people start writing in all capitals, and here I’ve gone and done it. I’m not yelling or anything, just emphasizing my main point. If anyone wants to say Moses wrote every word of all five books, that’s fine; it doesn’t matter to me either way.)

 

[vern_humphrey]

As I said, sure, Moses could have written it all. But it’s not likely, I think, and my basic point is that IT’S NOT IMPORTANT. The important thing is that IT IS STILL INSPIRED BY GOD.

That’s exactly correct – the value of the Pentateuch is not who wrote it, but that whoever composed it was inspired by God.

Genesis is full of clues that it began as oral stories – two versions of the creation, two versions of Noah loading the animals on the Ark, three versions of Abraham claiming Sarah was his sister, and so on. The rest of the Pentateuch also full of clues that it was written down long after Moses’ time – the reminder that the Canaanites were then living in the land, the description of Moses’ funeral, and so on.

 

[scottm]

I assume you had some idea you meant to convey here, but whatever it was didn’t come thorugh.

The claim was that the Pentateuch “is a farm more sophisticated form of Judaism than could have existed in Moses’ time,” and for this reason could not have been written by him. What we have is necessarily something editted later in time, the suggestion being the era of King Solomon.

In other words, neither Moses nor anyone else in his generation was smart enough to come up with those books of the Bible. It’s too “sophisticated” for them. It’s above their ability, even with the help of God. Not even God’s inspiration could have broken through their lack of sophistication.

I disagree with that claim.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The claim was that the Pentateuch “is a farm more sophisticated form of Judaism than could have existed in Moses’ time,” and for this reason could not have been written by him. What we have is necessarily something editted later in time, the suggestion being the era of King Solomon.

In other words, neither Moses nor anyone else in his generation was smart enough to come up with those books of the Bible. It’s too “sophisticated” for them. It’s above their ability, even with the help of God. Not even God’s inspiration could have broken through their lack of sophistication.

I disagree with that claim.

You don’t know what you’re disagreeing with.

Go back and read the Pentateuch. Pay careful attention to the ritual articles mentioned – those parts attributed to the “priestly source.” Translate that into finances and transportation logistics.

It becomes obvious that what is being described is not appropriate for a nomadic people wandering in the desert – it is much more attuned to a city-dwelling people with the wealth to spare for such things.

 

[scottm]

Naturally, there are different tones to different parts of the writings. Sometime, pick out a poster here, & call up their total posts, & check what they write over in the Clubhouse games vs. what they write here, in the more serious threads. Do they sound exactly the same? Of course not! That’s perfectly natural, for any writer!!

Bing bing bing! Exactly!

cpayne:

How much does the vocabulary and sentence structure change from Genesis to, say, Leviticus? I don’t know Hebrew, but scholars who do say it changes a lot. The shift of focus is apparent even to me—it goes from a prophet dealing with the massive issues of God and His people, to a priest interested in the minutiae of the priestly sacrifices.

If I was writing a biography (Genesis) and a treatise on ecclessiology (Leviticus), the two papers would sound different! Of course they would! I’d use different words! My sentence patterns and structures would be different! The two papers would be very different!

Look, I’m a lawyer. I write for a living. I write letters to clients, letters to other lawyers, briefs for the court, motions for the court, and memos to my staff. I use different vocabulary for each one of these documents. My sentences are different in each one. My paragraphs are different. They are different yet penned by me. One author for all.

In like manner Genesis is not Leviticus is not Deuteronomy. Of course they read differently! Of course they do!

Would that our so-called “university scholars” were so enlightened to what people actually do in real life.

 

[scottm]

You don’t know what you’re disagreeing with.

Go back and read the Pentateuch. Pay careful attention to the ritual articles mentioned – those parts attributed to the “priestly source.” Translate that into finances and transportation logistics.

It becomes obvious that what is being described is not appropriate for a nomadic people wandering in the desert – it is much more attuned to a city-dwelling people with the wealth to spare for such things.

Actually I do know what I’m disagreeing with. I’m the seminary student and Bible teacher. I’ve read the OT, and all I see is you insulting the people on whose shoulders you stand. You’ve copped an arrogant attitude toward these other people. It’s not cool and it’s not academically warranted. Moses was coming out of the Egyptian courts under the nose of the world player Egypt. He was setting up a new nation in a land of pre-existing trade and commerce. It ain’t that hard to see.

 

[edwest2]

Not even God’s inspiration would help? Only a human-centric commentator would write this. And what did the people of the time say about Christs’ disciples? Read your Bible. They were amazed at these “uneducated” men. Do not deny the power of God as is evident throughout the Bible.

God bless,
Ed

 

[vern_humphrey]

Actually I do know what I’m disagreeing with. I’m the seminary student and Bible teacher. I’ve read the OT, and all I see is you insulting the people on whose shoulders you stand.

Ah, the feigned outrage of the old “You’re insulting somebody” ploy, eh?

You’ve copped an arrogant attitude toward these other people.

Accusing other people of arrogance is hardly what we expect of a seminarian.

It’s not cool and it’s not academically warranted.

Whether it’s “cool” or not is immaterial – to mature personalities, at least.

But it is clearly warranted – as warranted as, for example, as dating the Didache by the stage of development it portrays.

Moses was coming out of the Egyptian courts under the nose of the world player Egypt. He was setting up a new nation in a land of pre-existing trade and commerce. It ain’t that hard to see.

And it ain’t hard to see that the elaborate ritual described is of later date, either.

 

[scottm]

Accusing other people of arrogance is hardly what we expect of a seminarian.

You missed the point – saying that “those people are not sophisticated enough to get a revelation and instruction from God” is arrogant. It just is. And it’s unwarranted also. The only place that whole theory comes from is an a priori bias against both God and people of prior generations. I don’t have that bias.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You missed the point – saying that “those people are not sophisticated enough to get a revelation and instruction from God” is arrogant. It just is.

But you’re the one who said that, not me.

If you disagree, please post where I said, “those people are not sophisticated enough to get a revelation and instruction from God”

And it’s unwarranted also. The only place that whole theory comes from is an a priori bias against both God and people of prior generations. I don’t have that bias.

The bias you do have, as manifested by trying to put words in other people’s mouths is more than enough.

I don’t know what seminary you’re attending, but I hope you mature a bit before being ordained.

 

[cpayne]

Let me get this straight. Now that I’m sucked into this silly argument, I need to decide whether I’m on the side of the “arrogant” “anti-inspiration of the Holy Spirit” “anti-Moses” group, or the “common-sense” “people of the soil” “anti-university professors” group?

Permit me to unstick myself. See you all around somewhere else.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Wow!

Am I the only one here that believes Moses wrote nearly all of the Torah?!? I mean, of course he didn’t write of his burial, but Joshua certainly could have done that.

I don’t buy into the multiple creations representing multiple authors. For one, why is there never found writings of one creation account WITHOUT the other. If these were combined, there should be evidence of there separate origins.

Second, I think the Two Creation accounts show two sides of God. I mean, we have One side, showing the almighty Creator, who can create something out of nothing, simply by saying it is so. The Other side of God shows us a gentle Father lovingly creating His children, breathing life into them and walking with them in His Garden.

Lots of things could have happened.

There aren’t any of these so- called separate writings because we havent found them. We’re wonderfully lucky to have what we have found, hopefully we will find others. The oldest NT writings arent dated any earlier than 200CE although we know Paul wrote as early as the mid 50’s. So for even old writings, it less likely we would find writings even older than those.

If you prefer to see it as two sides of God, I guess you certainly can. What you believe of course, changes nothing in terms of the objective facts. Its’ clear from the two different words for God, the very different writings styles, as well as alluding to events he could not have witnessed, all make it the sound and clear conclusion of the experts that one person didn’t write it. And Catholicsm doesn’t suggest otherwise.

 

[NotWorthy]

It becomes obvious that what is being described is not appropriate for a nomadic people wandering in the desert – it is much more attuned to a city-dwelling people with the wealth to spare for such things.

Why, Vern, is this? God could certainly have had the author of these books write it so that it is attuned over countless generations. Moses certainly had enough time to write this stuff. He certainly had the opportunity to learn to write all this stuff. The five books, especially Genesis and Leviticus are certainly written in a different style, because they were written for different purposes. Just as we see different styles in all the four gospels.

Of course, one reason is that it’s different authors, but another reason is because it’s to a different audience.

 

[NotWorthy]

Lots of things could have happened.

There aren’t any of these so- called separate writings because we havent found them. We’re wonderfully lucky to have what we have found, hopefully we will find others. The oldest NT writings arent dated any earlier than 200CE although we know Paul wrote as early as the mid 50’s. So for even old writings, it less likely we would find writings even older than those.

If you prefer to see it as two sides of God, I guess you certainly can. What you believe of course, changes nothing in terms of the objective facts. Its’ clear from the two different words for God, the very different writings styles, as well as alluding to events he could not have witnessed, all make it the sound and clear conclusion of the experts that one person didn’t write it. And Catholicsm doesn’t suggest otherwise.

Then could someone please explain to me what Jesus meant when He said what He said?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Yeah, sad to say each discussion comes down to this the minute one questions something in the bible. Although the church teaches no such limitation of 100% unerrency, fundamentalists require it. You can throw facts at them all day, they just end up with the tried and true “with God anything is possible”…“are you saying God COULDN"T make purple zebra?”

Of course, in the end, it has nothing to do with such things at all. We can tell them all day long, that to know the truth of how and what the bible is doesnt not in any way take from its value and majesty, we’ve touched the holy of holies… It doesnt make one whit of difference if Moses wrote the torah or not…its value is in what it contains as wisdom and understanding of our relationship to God. But it matters to fundamentalists…Everything in their world apparently collapses if the bible isn’t 100% literally true.

So, they deny any and all science (which is a whole lot), and they deny I guess most of all the Catholic scholars past and present who disagree with them. It’s sad…Why did God grant us such beautiful brains, apparently I can’t use mine…its just for show.

I rather think that if fundamentalists ruled the world, and had done so since the beginning of the Church, well, I guess we wouldnt be communicating this way at all…Still writing on papyrus?