Did Moses write Genesis?

[vern_humphrey]

So we agree – Moses is not the author of Genesis. Its various parts were composed long before his time, and pulled together in a coherent whole by Moses

 

[NotWorthy]

No, it came from your imagination, Not. Stick to the truth.

Vern, I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of lying. It simply demeans you, my friend.

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2781102#post2781102) 				
  		*The reason the Sadducees (which you brought up) only use five books of Scripture is because they deny the rest is Scriptural. Jesus only taught from these five books when arguing with the Saduccees because he wanted to use the books that they held fast to. It's your argument, Vern, but using this is different then continuing a false statement when Jesus claims that Moses wrote about Him. If Moses didn't write it, it would be a false staemtent.*

“False statement?” That’s begging the question – you have yet to prove anything, and you want me to accept your argument so you can proceed to "prove "it.

I’m sorry, but when the prevailing Tradition at the time of Jesus tells us that Moses wrote the Torah, and nothing else, then when Jesus says, “When Moses wrote of Me”, I don’t think its presumptious to assume that Jesus is talking of Moses’ writings in the Torah.

 

[NotWorthy]

  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2781102#post2781102) 				
  		*If you claim that Moses did not write Genesis (and the rest of the Torah), and I show that Jesus said that Moses was writing about Him, what conclusion am I supposed to come up with?*

I suppose common sense and gentlemanly debate would be asking too much?

When have I ever been anything less than gentlemanly to you, Vern.

You accused me of not sticking to the truth. Some people would assume you are saying that I’m lying.

Even another poster accused you of being obtuse.

Now, I’m not sitting here claiming that I am definitively right, and that you are not, but I’m not trying to be rude with you either. If I am, please point it out and I’ll apologize for I sincerely do not want to demean you, my friend.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would not say the terms are used interchangeably, but they are both not “commoners”:He answered, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid, and thought, “Surely the thing is known.” (Ex 2:14)
But at the same time, there is that characteristic of Hebrew writing (found particularly in Zeph 3:3 here) that might equate the two as a term. The book of Leviticus does not speak specifically of “judges”, as do other books of the Pentateuch (cf. Ex 18:13-22, 21:22; Num 25:5; Deut 1:9-17, 16:18, 17:8-12, 19:16-19, 21:1-2, 25:1-2, 29:9).

However, pay attention to Ex 18:13-22; Lev 19:1-2,15; and Deut 1:9-17! They seem to be referring to the same or very similar incidents:

In Exodus 18, Moses’ father-in-law (Jethro) suggests that Moses appoint judges “as rulers of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens” to “judge the people at all times”, ruling over the simpler cases which arise among the people of Israel, and bringing the harder ones to Moses.

In Leviticus 19, God tells Moses to tell "all the congregation" (not just judges or rulers) “of the people of Israel”, among other things, that "[they] shall do no injustice in judgment; [they] shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall [they] judge [their] neighbor".

And in Deuteronomy 1, Moses says he asked the people to choose “wise, understanding, and experienced men” to lead the tribes as “commanders of thousands, commanders of hundreds, commanders of fifties, commanders of tens”, and they consented, and he appointed them, and said to the judges: "Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the alien that is with him. You shall not be partial in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike; you shall not be afraid of the face of man, for the judgment is God’s; and the case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it."

Vern, your thoughts on this?

I don’t consider you worthy.

Wow, at first I thought you were slamming me, and then it sunk in!!!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of lying. It simply demeans you, my friend.

This is an excellent example of a tactic you use – when did I use the word “lie?”

 

[NotWorthy]

So we agree – Moses is not the author of Genesis. Its various parts were composed long before his time, and pulled together in a coherent whole after his time.

No, we do not agree. Just two pages ago, you were claiming that the authorship of Genesis was long after Moses demise.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, we do not agree. Just two pages ago, you were claiming that the authorship of Genesis was long after Moses demise.

There you go again!

If you followed the thread, my position has always been that most of Genesis orginated in oral stories, handed down over the generations, long before Moses’ time. The internal evidednce for that is very strong.

Those stories were redacted after Moses’ time – and the internal evidence for that is also very stong.

But if it suits you to pretend I had a different position, . . .

 

[NotWorthy]

There you go again!

If you followed the thread, my position has always been that most of Genesis orginated in oral stories, handed down over the generations, long before Moses’ time. The internal evidednce for that is very strong.

Those stories were redacted after Moses’ time – and the internal evidence for that is also very stong.

When I saw you wrote “compose” I assumed (incorrectly, I might add) that you meant it was written. I don’t think anyone doubts that the stories were handed down in some way (mostly oral) since the earliest of times. Since that was never in question (as I understand it) I didn’t think that this was what you were referring to.

But if it suits you to pretend I had a different position, . . .

Wow, more friendly fire. And I’m the one that’s not gentlemanly?

 

[Valke2]

amazon.com/How-Bible-Became-Book-Textualization/dp/0521829461

… Taking a detailed historical and literary approach, he reminds us that early Israel was a largely oral culture, and that even during the consolidation of the kingdom under David and Solomon, few scribes were interested in chronicling the stories of a people. By the eighth century B.C.E., however, during Hezekiah’s reign (727â€"698 B.C.E.), the king’s scribes engaged in writing and editing historical narratives and collecting the proverbs attributed to Solomon. The urbanization of Jerusalem provided the social context that allowed the movement from a primarily oral culture to a primarily literary one. Thus, Schniedewind contends that the historical narratives of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings, in addition to the Pentateuch and some of the prophetic writings, can be dated to Hezekiah’s reign rather than to an earlier Solomonic period or to a post-exilic Persian period. Schniedewind’s provocative thesis will likely generate some controversy, but it will be well received among those who accept the historical revisionism of Israel Finkelstein and others.

 

[vern_humphrey]

amazon.com/How-Bible-Became-Book-Textualization/dp/0521829461

… Taking a detailed historical and literary approach, he reminds us that early Israel was a largely oral culture, and that even during the consolidation of the kingdom under David and Solomon, few scribes were interested in chronicling the stories of a people. By the eighth century B.C.E., however, during Hezekiah’s reign (727â€"698 B.C.E.), the king’s scribes engaged in writing and editing historical narratives and collecting the proverbs attributed to Solomon. The urbanization of Jerusalem provided the social context that allowed the movement from a primarily oral culture to a primarily literary one. Thus, Schniedewind contends that the historical narratives of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings, in addition to the Pentateuch and some of the prophetic writings, can be dated to Hezekiah’s reign rather than to an earlier Solomonic period or to a post-exilic Persian period. Schniedewind’s provocative thesis will likely generate some controversy, but it will be well received among those who accept the historical revisionism of Israel Finkelstein and others.

There you go. Thanks for demonstrating that it’s possible to debate this at an intellectual level without using the word “lie” to those who hold a different opinion.

 

[NotWorthy]

amazon.com/How-Bible-Became-Book-Textualization/dp/0521829461

… Taking a detailed historical and literary approach, he reminds us that early Israel was a largely oral culture, and that even during the consolidation of the kingdom under David and Solomon, few scribes were interested in chronicling the stories of a people. By the eighth century B.C.E., however, during Hezekiah’s reign (727â€"698 B.C.E.), the king’s scribes engaged in writing and editing historical narratives and collecting the proverbs attributed to Solomon. The urbanization of Jerusalem provided the social context that allowed the movement from a primarily oral culture to a primarily literary one. …

This comes from AgapeBibleStudy. Evidently, literacy was more widespread than thought.

Archaeological evidence supports the claim that a work like the Pentateuch could have been written in the late bronze age or even earlier, and the inscriptions of Hebrew slaves found in Bronze Age Egyptian turquoise mines in the Sinai prove there was a higher degree of literacy among the common people than scholars previously believed.
And then one must take into consideration that:
¨ Moses was raised and educated as a prince in the royal household of a nation that was a world super-power. Egyptians had a fully developed writing system that has been dated back to at least 3,000BC and Moses, who would have been educated in the highly developed academic environment of the Egyptian royal court, would have been preeminently prepared to write the text of the Pentateuch.
¨ Moses would have received the oral traditions of his people from his Hebrew mother who served as his royal nurse.
¨ The Pentateuch illustrates the knowledge of an individual who possessed an intimate understanding of the climate, geography, traditions, language [many words, and names, found in the Exodus account are either Egyptian or are derived from Egyptian words], and building practices of the Egyptians.
¨ The Exodus experience spanned 40 years–more than enough time and opportunity to complete the work.

 

[Valke2]

This comes from AgapeBibleStudy. Evidently, literacy was more widespread than thought.

Yes, but its use, according to the author of “How the Bible Became a Book” was very limited early on. He does not dispute that writing was used but that its use was limited to royal decrees/orders and writings of the priests. (i.e. magic incantations)

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, but its use, according to the author of “How the Bible Became a Book” was very limited early on. He does not dispute that writing was used but that its use was limited to royal decrees/orders and writings of the priests. (i.e. magic incantations)

But Moses certainly had the ability and knowledge to write and God did tell Moses on at least two occasions to write things down.

In the first century alone there was testimonial to the tradition of Moses authorship:

External evidence supporting Mosaic authorship can be found in Jewish tradition, in the Jewish Talmud, the Mishnah, the writings of 1st century Jewish scholars like Philo of Alexandria and Josephus, as well in surviving pre-first century AD Jewish commentaries. The writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers, and the lists of the early Christian canons also support Mosaic authorship.

Meanwhile, no where is there known testimony of another author.

 

[Valke2]

But Moses certainly had the ability and knowledge to write and God did tell Moses on at least two occasions to write things down.

In the first century alone there was testimonial to the tradition of Moses authorship:
Meanwhile, no where is there known testimony of another author.

He had the ability to write but why write things down for a people who didn’t have the ability to read in a time where not being able to read carried no social stigma? I don’t believe Moses is told to write anything down in Exodus and it is only in later in Lev. that Moses is told to write things down. This can be viewed as an attempt to legitimize the Torah at a time when writing took on a more important role in society.

 

[Valke2]

But Moses certainly had the ability and knowledge to write and God did tell Moses on at least two occasions to write things down.

In the first century alone there was testimonial to the tradition of Moses authorship:
Meanwhile, no where is there known testimony of another author.

Also, it was quite common to attribute authorship to someone other than the author, in order to lend an air of legitimacy to the text. Hence all the psalms of David, for example.

Of course Jewish tradition holds that Moses wrote the Torah. But how much of the Torah is often in dispute.

 

[NotWorthy]

He had the ability to write but why write things down for a people who didn’t have the ability to read in a time where not being able to read carried no social stigma? I don’t believe Moses is told to write anything down in Exodus and it is only in later in Lev. that Moses is told to write things down. This can be viewed as an attempt to legitimize the Torah at a time when writing took on a more important role in society.

Maybe God knew that this would someday become what we now know as the Torah?

 

[NotWorthy]

Also, it was quite common to attribute authorship to someone other than the author, in order to lend an air of legitimacy to the text. Hence all the psalms of David, for example.

Yes, I can understand that. It wasn’t an attempt at plagiarism as we understand it. It was quite common.

Of course Jewish tradition holds that Moses wrote the Torah. But how much of the Torah is often in dispute.

I wasn’t aware of any dispute, but if it’s like the Christians, it’s only originated in the last 150 or so years.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, I can understand that. It wasn’t an attempt at plagiarism as we understand it. It was quite common.

I wasn’t aware of any dispute, but if it’s like the Christians, it’s only originated in the last 150 or so years.

Actually, as I explained much earlier, it began with Maimonides in the 12th Century – almost 900 years ago.

 

[japhy]

He had the ability to write but why write things down for a people who didn’t have the ability to read in a time where not being able to read carried no social stigma? I don’t believe Moses is told to write anything down in Exodus and it is only in later in Lev. that Moses is told to write things down. This can be viewed as an attempt to legitimize the Torah at a time when writing took on a more important role in society.

And the LORD said to Moses, “Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.” (Ex 17:14)

And the LORD said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Ex 34:27-28)

"When you come to the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and dwell in it, and then say, **I will set a king over me**, like all the nations that are round about me'; you may indeed set as king over you him whom the LORD your God will choose. One from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. Only he must not multiply horses for himself, or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, You shall never return that way again.’ And he shall not multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply for himself silver and gold.
“And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, from that which is in the charge of the Levitical priests; and it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them; that his heart may not be lifted up above his brethren, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left; so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.” (Deut 17:14-20)