Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

[cestusdei]

roll,
So violence IS allowed. Ah but on rare occasions. Hmmm…how do you define rare? Anytime they hear or see something they don’t like? When that happens you get to kill an elderly nun, as they did today? I guess I am just imagining the current riots. Maybe the Byzantines just imagined Constantinople being sacked by the Muslims. Wake up.

 

[Thorondir]

roll,
So violence IS allowed. Ah but on rare occasions. Hmmm…how do you define rare?

LOL! Perhaps he defines rare as more than 7,000 acts of violent terrorism against non-Muslims of every kind all around the world since 9/11/01.

Some folks think appeasing The Throatsliters of Peace will save them. They need to think again.

When Islam takes the last city, we will all get the tender choice of a prayer rug or a coffin.

 

[Catherine_S]

And if you want a more balanced opinion, read the first two links I provided above. I’m a professor of history at a private college, I work with several Muslims, and my best friend, who was my roommate in college, is a Muslim. I have also travelled extensively in the Muslim world.

Violence is only allowed in very rare cases. In general, the “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews) are required to be protected by Muslims, until they willingly convert of their own accord.

[sign] At a time when anti-religious, atheist and materialist ideologies surround the world, similarities among theistic religions should be emphasized, and cooperation should be established for common aims.
Concerning the People of the Book, God gives Muslims a command in the Koran; to rally to a common formula:
O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God. (Surat Al 'Imran, 64)
This is indeed our call to Christians and Jews: As people who believe in God and follow His revelations, let us rally to a common formula - “faith”. Let’s love God, Who is our Creator and Lord, and follow His commands. And let us pray God to lead us to an even straighter path.

When Muslims, Christians and Jews rally to a common formula this way;
**When they understand that they are friends not enemies, **
**When they see that the real enemy is atheism and paganism, **
**then the world will become a very different place. **
**The fighting that has raged for ages, enmities, fears - and terrorist attacks - will come to an end, **and a new civilization based on love, respect and peace will be established upon this “common formula”. [sign]
islamdenouncesterrorism.com/people_of_the_book_the_muslims.html

Who is going to teach this to the thousands and thousands of Muslims who’s screaming faces we have been watching on TV in the last few days? Or what are we to believe when we hear of how Muslims are killing each other in Araq when they are not killing others etc?
.
I think that Pope Benedict just tried to teach this and we are certainly seeing a response that is anything but peaceful.
**. **

 

[Rolltide]

So, may we assume that two of those “rare cases” would have been the shooting of JPll in 1981 and the plans to kill him in the Phillipines in 1995, both undertaken by Muslims?

Islam is as Islam does.

Anna

Everyone knows that the assassin that tried to kill the Pope was most likely hired by the Russians in order to stop his efforts against communism in Poland. This particular case had nothing to do with Islam.

 

[cestusdei]

How about when the planned to blow his plane up over the Pacific Ocean or when they were rude to him when he visited Jerusalam? How about the recent calls for Pope Benedicts death and the threats of suicide bombers at St. Peters. Read my thread"shoe on the other foot". I hate to tell you this, but Islamic violence is not rare.

 

[Rolltide]

LOL! Perhaps he defines rare as more than 7,000 acts of violent terrorism against non-Muslims of every kind all around the world since 9/11/01.

Some folks think appeasing The Throatsliters of Peace will save them. They need to think again.

Oh please. Your exaggeration and hateful speech is bordering that of the fringe of the Muslim world. Prejudice and stereotypes are dangerous. The RELIGION itslef does not preach violence except in very specific instances, such as if one’s own Muslim homeland is under attack. Catholicism teaches that it is licit to take part in a just war as well. Islam absolutely forbids any violence against “People of the Book”, meaning Christians and Jews. The fact that Islam is like Protestantism, in that it has no central authority, can make people read into the Qu’ran anything they want. THAT is the danger. A failure to address ANY of the underlying politics, political figures, poverty, and other issues is very short sighted indeed. Violence is NOT rare, but under Islam, it is SUPPOSED to be.

Many people in these regions look the other way out of a hatred for American politics, and for the same reason people in Italian neighborhoods supported the Mafia (Hezbollah being the prime example of this).

When Islam takes the last city, we will all get the tender choice of a prayer rug or a coffin.

Actually, I was given a prayer rug as a gift by my friend. I gave him a beautiful crucifix, which he still keeps above the entrance to his house.

 

[pro_universal]

Rolltide,

I salute your efforts, but I suspect that you are wasting your breath.

Ignorance and hatred of the other is impenetrable to the point that even being an ordained priest will not absolve one of the problem. Last time I was here, cestusdei was explaining to me how the just war tradition would permit nuking Mecca and other Muslim population centers in response to terrorism.

That is the attitude you are up against. If they are willing to entertain fantasies of killing millions of people, I don’t think you’ll be able to change them (I wish it were otherwise).

 

[Thorondir]

The RELIGION itslef does not preach violence except in very specific instances, such as if one’s own Muslim homeland is under attack. Catholicism teaches that it is licit to take part in a just war as well.

Actually, I was given a prayer rug as a gift by my friend. I gave him a beautiful crucifix, which he still keeps above the entrance to his house.

To all:
This moral relativism is more evidence that this guy has either never cracked open a Koran or is on his prayer rug and spewing Taqqiya to fool us infidels.

I think it’s the latter. Reminds me of the fake deacon, sinkspur. It’s so much easier to destroy a nation or an organization from within.

I read the Koran every day and it is all violence preached against us. I discuss it with a Muslim “friend” from Africa, even though the Koran forbids taking Christians or Jews as friend. The “friend” only talks to me because he thinks there is a chance of converting me. LOL! Fat chance there. Unlike rolltide/sinkspur, I’m not a moral relativist who cannot understand a logical argument.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Everyone knows that the assassin that tried to kill the Pope was most likely hired by the Russians in order to stop his efforts against communism in Poland. This particular case had nothing to do with Islam.

Everyone knows a “most likely?”

And, c’mon, rollover, explain the plan to kill JPll on his Phillipine trip? All documented and everything!!! How about that?

Anna

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Everyone knows that the assassin that tried to kill the Pope was most likely hired by the Russians in order to stop his efforts against communism in Poland. This particular case had nothing to do with Islam.

Yes, yes? And does “'everyone” know another “most likely” that would explain the Muslim effort to kill JPll on his Phillipine trip?

Perhaps they thought he was about to attack- what was it? -a Muslim homeland! That must have been it, right?

C’mon, rollover, explain that one!

Islam is as Islam does,

Anna

 

[Rolltide]

To all:
This moral relativism is more evidence that this guy has either never cracked open a Koran or is on his prayer rug and spewing Taqqiya to fool us infidels.

I think it’s the latter. Reminds me of the fake deacon, sinkspur. It’s so much easier to destroy a nation or an organization from within.

I read the Koran every day and it is all violence preached against us. I discuss it with a Muslim “friend” from Africa, even though the Koran forbids taking Christians or Jews as friend. The “friend” only talks to me because he thinks there is a chance of converting me. LOL! Fat chance there. Unlike rolltide/sinkspur, I’m not a moral relativist who cannot understand a logical argument.

Yes, I have read the Koran, thank you. No, I am in no way a moral relativist. I am a Catholic, and I’ll thank you to make no mistake of that. You are accusing me of things that are blatantly untrue. I have actually been an RCIA sponsor to three different individuals. Two of them I convinced to convert to Catholicism myself. I have also been very active in helping new Hispanic Catholics in our community (I’m a Latin American history professor, specifically).

I am extremely offended that you think I cannot understand a logical argument. It is clear there is no arguing with you, but don’t expect me to sit back quietly while people preach hatred on this board. It is the very antithesis of what Catholicism is.

 

[Rolltide]

Everyone knows a “most likely?”

And, c’mon, rollover, explain the plan to kill JPll on his Phillipine trip? All documented and everything!!! How about that?

Anna

Operation Bojinka was an Al-Qaeda operation. Al-Qaeda is the extremist fringe. Nothing surprising there.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The Quran is full of prescriptive verses calling for “non-violence” against the kufar (disbelievers). The word used is qatiloo which means fight (can also mean kill). Read surah 9 (the surah of the sword), and surah 8. How can anyone say the Quran advocates violence against the infidels?

Here’s a sample of how the Quran does not, I repeat - does not, advocate violence against the infidels.

8:39 Hilaly & Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone (in the whole of the world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Sure sounds like a peace message to me. What do you think?

 

[Eden]

Islam absolutely forbids any violence against “People of the Book”, meaning Christians and Jews.

The part that you failed to mention is that in the Quran, the “peaceful” quotes are from the earlier Mecca period. All of those passages became nullified by the militant Medinan period.

After Mohammed moved to Medina, he abandoned his peaceful approach and resorted to using the sword. The 124 verses of the Quran that call for tolerance, peace, and patience were cancelled and replaced by this one single verse: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war.)” Surah 9:5

 

[cestusdei]

pro, I will bet you that they are the ones who will use a nuke on us. Just today they said Muslims should leave NYC and DC as they plan to use wmd. Yet, that doesn’t seem to bother you. Your new co-religionists don’t act moral like a 1st century Jew, but they do act like a 7th century Arab. As for hate. Look at the pics of the Muslims rioting today and shooting elderly nuns in the back.

 

[cestusdei]

Rod, to bad the peaceful verses are all abrogated and don’t count anymore.

 

[Rolltide]

The part that you failed to mention is that in the Quran, the “peaceful” quotes are from the earlier Mecca period. All of those passages became nullified by the militant Medinan period.

After Mohammed moved to Medina, he abandoned his peaceful approach and resorted to using the sword. The 124 verses of the Quran that call for tolerance, peace, and patience were cancelled and replaced by this one single verse: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war.)” Surah 9:5

And yet, all throughout the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Jews were tolerated and protected. They even developed their own culture (Mozarabic - handed down to us in the Catholic rite now only seen in Toledo, Spain). Muslims and Jews both occasionally served as godparents for Christians in 11th century Spain, for example.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

All throughout Islamic history Jews and Christians were treated as second-class citizens and persecuted for not following Islam - according to the wishes of their master, Mahomet.

Sure there were the odd enlightened ruler who accepted and valued Christian doctors and Jewish astrologers/astronomers and court advisers. But the exceptions do not prove the general rule.

Do not be mistaken that Muslims ever treated Jews and Christians well in general. For instance, no Christian church was allowed to be repaired, and no new ones to be built. Christians had to pay jizyah with humiliation. Harun al-Rashid was the inventor of the ‘Star of David’ emblem which they had to wear at all times, and which Hitler copied. Jews and Christians had to vacate the footpaths for Muslims and cannot ride donkeys but walk.

A Muslim cannot be punished for murdering a Christian!!!

Muhammad himself gives justification for this. He says only Muslims’ have blood that is alike; thus a Muslim should not be put to death for murdering a non-Muslim but must pay a blood feud to the family of the murdered man. As expected, the great Muslim legists and scholars such as Ibn Timiyya, Ibn Hazm, Al-Shafii, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Al-Jalalan, Al-Bukhari and Muslim agree on this important point. answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv4.html

I urge all Christians to read the above link to find out how exactly the Muslims treated Jews and Christians.

 

[Eden]

And yet, all throughout the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Jews were tolerated and protected. They even developed their own culture (Mozarabic - handed down to us in the Catholic rite now only seen in Toledo, Spain). Muslims and Jews both occasionally served as godparents for Christians in 11th century Spain, for example.

I’m not concerned about the fact that throughout the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Jews were tolerated and protected. I’m concerned about a faith system that threatens the very existence of me, my family, my fellow Christians and my way of life in 2006 during the “They Want to Kill Us All Dynasty”.

 

[Rolltide]

All throughout Islamic history Jews and Christians were treated as second-class citizens and persecuted for not following Islam - according to the wishes of their master, Mahomet.

Sure there were the odd enlightened ruler who accepted and valued Christian doctors and Jewish astrologers/astronomers and court advisers. But the exceptions do not prove the general rule.

Do not be mistaken that Muslims ever treated Jews and Christians well in general. For instance, no Christian church was allowed to be repaired, and no new ones to be built. Christians had to pay jizyah with humiliation. Harun al-Rashid was the inventor of the ‘Star of David’ emblem which they had to wear at all times, and which Hitler copied. Jews and Christians had to vacate the footpaths for Muslims and cannot ride donkeys but walk.

This is somewhat true of the Abbasid Dynasty, but not really true for the Umayyad Dynasty up through 750 AD. Jews were allowed to undertake the construction of new temples during this period, and many groups allowed Muslims in, as they treated the local populations better than the administrations they were currently under. By the Abbasid Dynasty, many people were converting so they could avoid paying taxes and advance within the administration.