Did people really live hundreds of years?

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TMC wrote:

No. My argument is that Humani Generis is a real Papal encyclical which enjoys authority in the Church and forbids Catholics espousing polygenesis. I am far from alone in this:

Wikipedia:

Introductory Dictionary of Theological and Religious studies:

Fr Julian Large, Provost, Brompton Oratory:

Forbes magazine:

Msgr Charles Pope, official blogger, Archidiocese of Washington DC

Seriously man, it’s not just me. I am appalled by this reality, and wish it were not so…but I remain convinced that it is.
Its not just you, but I am suggesting your view is in the minority. An admittedly vocal minority, but a minority all the same.

But maybe I’m wrong. Certainly there are posters here that will tell you that monogenism is always and forever banned. Of course, there are also posters here that will tell you that evolution of any kind is banned, that Genesis is literal history, etc. etc. There was even a guy that used to come here to rant about geocentrism. They can all point you to Church documents they think support their views. (Of course, that is what I am doing, too.)

If your point here is just to make the Church look silly by pointing out what you perceive to be an irreconcilable conflict with science – well that’s an odd hobby, but whatever. If you really want to discuss what the Church teaches, I would suggest that a thorough review of what Church theologians are writing will support my view. You may well disagree, so be it. But either way don’t hang your hat on one sentence in one document from before we were born. That kind of proof texting in what fundamentalists do – decide on a viewpoint and then go get a quote to support it.

To be clear, at the end of the day I am not personally particularly concerned about what the Church formally says on this topic. I like to come here and discuss these issues because it is one of the places you can do that. But although I am interested in what the Church has to say, I think I must (and we all should) form my own opinion on the matter.

But to the extent that the Church’s view is that important to you, I still don’t see why HG should be particularly troubling. As I have pointed out, it is at least moderated, if not contradicted, by more recent Church statements. Even if I am wrong, and the statements from JPII and BXVI are meaningless, and Communion and Stewardship is not authoritative, etc. etc., worst case is there is one dated encyclical that expresses one Pope’s opinion which appears to conflict with current scientific consensus. Hardly the most troubling thing to be found in an encyclical. Again, my view is that opinion, read in context, does not bar a modern Catholic from believing in polygenism. But even if it did, it would neither change my opinion or trouble me.
 
Again, my view is that opinion, read in context, does not bar a modern Catholic from believing in polygenism. But even if it did, it would neither change my opinion or trouble me.
So, even if an encyclical does actually bar you from believing a certain thing, you won’t change your opinion about that thing?

See, that’s where you lose me.

I wonder what FrDavid96 would say about this particular thing.
 
So, even if an encyclical does actually bar you from believing a certain thing, you won’t change your opinion about that thing?

See, that’s where you lose me.

I wonder what FrDavid96 would say about this particular thing.
The question is “to what degree does it bar us from believing in…?” Some teachings can indeed change. We must be careful not to treat every sentence of a papal encyclical as an infallible pronouncement of faith and morals.

In the particular encyclical (more specifically paragraph 37) I am open to the possibility that we can accept the theological truths of that paragraph while still accepting what science learns. In other words (to put it bluntly, let it sound like I’m equivocating here): we can accept Pope Pius’s theology while admitting that his scientific reasoning was imperfect.

I do not see that polygenism necessarily contradicts the essential truths in the doctrine of Original Sin. I do not see that as an absolute.

Here is Humani Generis #37 again
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Let’s look at the key words:

The faithful cannot embrace polygenism because that would result in:
a. after Adam there existed on this earth true men…
b. Adam represents a certain number of parents.

Pope Pius does not list a third possibility. He says that we cannot accept polygenism because that would result in either a or b. We cannot believe either a or b.

But what if there is a c?

He says that we cannot accept polygenism because to do so would mean a or b.

If there is a “c” out there (and I personally believe there is) then it would indeed be possible to reconcile polygenism with the Pope’s teaching on matters of faith.

Side note: it’s very late. I went looking for a snack and checked the computer. I might very well need to clarify some things here when I’m awake.
 
The question is “to what degree does it bar us from believing in…?” Some teachings can indeed change. We must be careful not to treat every sentence of a papal encyclical as an infallible pronouncement of faith and morals.

In the particular encyclical (more specifically paragraph 37) I am open to the possibility that we can accept the theological truths of that paragraph while still accepting what science learns. In other words (to put it bluntly, let it sound like I’m equivocating here): we can accept Pope Pius’s theology while admitting that his scientific reasoning was imperfect.

I do not see that polygenism necessarily contradicts the essential truths in the doctrine of Original Sin. I do not see that as an absolute.

Here is Humani Generis #37 again
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Let’s look at the key words:

The faithful cannot embrace polygenism because that would result in:
a. after Adam there existed on this earth true men…
b. Adam represents a certain number of parents.

Pope Pius does not list a third possibility. He says that we cannot accept polygenism because that would result in either a or b. We cannot believe either a or b.

But what if there is a c?

He says that we cannot accept polygenism because to do so would mean a or b.

If there is a “c” out there (and I personally believe there is) then it would indeed be possible to reconcile polygenism with the Pope’s teaching on matters of faith.

Side note: it’s very late. I went looking for a snack and checked the computer. I might very well need to clarify some things here when I’m awake.
The key phrase in that paragraph is “true men”.
What is a human being?
 
Fr David96 wrote:
Let’s look at the key words:
The faithful cannot embrace polygenism because that would result in:
a. after Adam there existed on this earth true men…
b. Adam represents a certain number of parents.
Pope Pius does not list a third possibility. He says that we cannot accept polygenism because that would result in either a or b. We cannot believe either a or b.
But what if there is a c?
He says that we cannot accept polygenism because to do so would mean a or b.
If there is a “c” out there (and I personally believe there is) then it would indeed be possible to reconcile polygenism with the Pope’s teaching on matters of faith.
Yes. Exactly. This is an extremely lucid post, kudos on making it while half asleep.

Indeed some people are hoping for and looking for C.

My concern is that it seems that c is a logical impossibility, since its formulation or discovery would have to necessarily remove the possibility of A and B.

I can’t help but note that most Catholics who write on the subject are pinning all their hopes on B. This seems to be an obvious dead end.

So…what would C look like, if it is not a simple refutation of Humani Generis?

That’s why I asked for a narrative, because attempting one highlights the lack of probability that C exists. I feel as if we’ve been waiting for C for a long time, and instead of becoming apparent, C is less possible now that ever. I dare say, C may have been proven impossible. I think the world agrees with me, since B is now the de facto answer among liberals.

In fact, I personally think we’re in precisely the same situation we were in during the 17th century with Galileo, except for the rampant apathy! There’s no one to drag up before the court, and no court to drag them up in front of, but once again we are faced with a severe contradiction of a scriptural principle by scientific discoveries, and once we have a Pope drawing a line in the sand which aged really gracelessly.
 


That’s why I asked for a narrative, because attempting one highlights the lack of probability that C exists. I feel as if we’ve been waiting for C for a long time, and instead of becoming apparent, C is less possible now that ever. I dare say, C may have been proven impossible. I think the world agrees with me, since B is now the de facto answer among liberals.
I was led to this interesting article from a blog post by Edward Feser. You may find elements in the argument interesting as well, possibly not. Thought I would share it.
 


So…what would C look like, if it is not a simple refutation of Humani Generis?
I’ll answer that on one condition: Understand that I’m not trying to pose a scientific theory. OK? I’m not saying “I think this happened” or “scientists and theologians should just agree that this is how it happened” or even “this makes scientific sense.”
All I’m trying to do is say that we are not limited to 2 possibilities.

If we assume polygenism for the sake of discussion. What if all human beings have Adam & Eve as a common ancestor pair but not necessarily descended only from them? What if Cain found a mate who was not a daughter of Adam and Eve? All Cain’s descendants would still be descended from Adam and Eve. What about other children of Adam and Eve; if they found spouses who were non-siblings.

*What if we call them all homo erectus but the ones descended from Adam and Eve homo sapien?

I not suggesting that anyone believe this. I am not saying that I believe it (I do not). All I’m saying is that this is one possibility that fits with the rest of the Genesis storyline.

I remember way back when, in the second grade this very question was asked by students: how did Cain find a wife, wouldn’t she be his sister? Over the years many of my own young parishioners have asked the very same question. I’m sure it’s been asked again and again through the ages.

There is also another possible C. That one is that we simply accept that early Genesis is not to be taken literally but spiritually. It was the best (indeed Divinely inspired) answer to a very complicated question that was (and still is and always will be) beyond human comprehension. We simply accept the fact that all humans are born with Original Sin and we don’t try to force any kind of biological (genetic, whatever) explanation into early Genesis. We leave questions of biology to the scientists.

I also want to say that I’m not advocating for polygenism. I’m a theologian not a scientists. The scientists should do their work and offer their conclusions based on scientific research and legitimate methodology. They should also come to Mass on Sundays and confession on Saturdays, say their daily prayers, share with the poor, etc.

We are at the point in our human history that we simply cannot deny what science is discovering with regard to the biological origins of man. Not every theory proves true. Not every scientist agrees with every other on all points. Yet, we have reached the point where no reasonable person can deny that evolution happened somehow.

It took a while, but we:
  1. Realized that we can no longer deny that the earth revolves around the sun
  2. Realized that we can no longer deny that human beings descended from primates
We now accept both of these and we are still Christians. Let’s not make the same mistake we made with Galileo.
 
Mdent wrote:
I was led to this interesting article from a blog post by Edward Feser. You may find elements in the argument interesting as well, possibly not. Thought I would share it.
Excellent article. He’s espousing a ‘plan C’ which is intriguing, and might just keep this thing afloat. Thank you for finding that!

(It also contained the narrative I wanted. Super!)
 
DrDavid96 wrote:
I’ll answer that on one condition: Understand that I’m not trying to pose a scientific theory. OK? I’m not saying “I think this happened” or “scientists and theologians should just agree that this is how it happened” or even “this makes scientific sense.”
All I’m trying to do is say that we are not limited to 2 possibilities.
If we assume polygenism for the sake of discussion. What if all human beings have Adam & Eve as a common ancestor pair but not necessarily descended only from them? What if Cain found a mate who was not a daughter of Adam and Eve? All Cain’s descendants would still be descended from Adam and Eve. What about other children of Adam and Eve; if they found spouses who were non-siblings.
I not suggesting that anyone believe this. I am not saying that I believe it (I do not). All I’m saying is that this is one possibility that fits with the rest of the Genesis storyline.
I remember way back when, in the second grade this very question was asked by students: how did Cain find a wife, wouldn’t she be his sister? Over the years many of my own young parishioners have asked the very same question. I’m sure it’s been asked again and again through the ages.
There is also another possible C. That one is that we simply accept that early Genesis is not to be taken literally but spiritually. It was the best (indeed Divinely inspired) answer to a very complicated question that was (and still is and always will be) beyond human comprehension. We simply accept the fact that all humans are born with Original Sin and we don’t try to force any kind of biological (genetic, whatever) explanation into early Genesis. We leave questions of biology to the scientists.
I also want to say that I’m not advocating for polygenism. I’m a theologian not a scientists. The scientists should do their work and offer their conclusions based on scientific research and legitimate methodology. They should also come to Mass on Sundays and confession on Saturdays, say their daily prayers, share with the poor, etc.
We are at the point in our human history that we simply cannot deny what science is discovering with regard to the biological origins of man. Not every theory proves true. Not every scientist agrees with every other on all points. Yet, we have reached the point where no reasonable person can deny that evolution happened somehow.
It took a while, but we:
  1. Realized that we can no longer deny that the earth revolves around the sun
  2. Realized that we can no longer deny that human beings descended from primates
We now accept both of these and we are still Christians. Let’s not make the same mistake we made with Galileo.
Yep, I understand your conditions, they make perfect sense to me.

In particular, you wrote:
There is also another possible C. That one is that we simply accept that early Genesis is not to be taken literally but spiritually. It was the best (indeed Divinely inspired) answer to a very complicated question that was (and still is and always will be) beyond human comprehension. We simply accept the fact that all humans are born with Original Sin and we don’t try to force any kind of biological (genetic, whatever) explanation into early Genesis. We leave questions of biology to the scientists.
I think that this was the way things would have gone, if not for what happened in 1950. I think the existence of HG is a good reminder that while the Holy Spirit protects our Popes from error in their universal teachings, the Holy Spirit does not endow them with more common sense than they naturally have already.
 
DrDavid96 wrote:

Yep, I understand your conditions, they make perfect sense to me.

In particular, you wrote:

I think that this was the way things would have gone, if not for what happened in 1950. I think the existence of HG is a good reminder that while the Holy Spirit protects our Popes from error in their universal teachings, the Holy Spirit does not endow them with more common sense than they naturally have already.
I would suggest they do not have “more scientific knowledge.” I think that popes do have a better than average “common sense.” After all, they don’t just hire the first applicant who walks through the doors. 😉
 
“True man” is a body created by God from material that science is still looking at, united to a soul, created by God.
We are too hung up on the material aspect of what it means to be human.

Q. Is it possible that on organism can look like a human, have genetic material like a human, but still not be human?
A. I am not 100% sure, but it seems the answer would be yes. **The answer rests on whether God has ensouled this creature yet. **The soul does not come from the existing material world. It is created by God.

JP2 emphasized that the soul cannot emanate from created material and be distributed amongst a population like a fungus. That’s all it is. He emphasized the unique and intentional creation of two original humans, body and soul.

How did all the rest happen leading up to that? Why can’t we just allow science to do it’s work? It will always be a mystery, and Genesis does a great job of expressing the truth of God’s absolute creative power.
 
“True man” is a body created by God from material that science is still looking at, united to a soul, created by God.
We are too hung up on the material aspect of what it means to be human.

Q. Is it possible that on organism can look like a human, have genetic material like a human, but still not be human?
A. I am not 100% sure, but it seems the answer would be yes. **The answer rests on whether God has ensouled this creature yet. **The soul does not come from the existing material world. It is created by God.

JP2 emphasized that the soul cannot emanate from created material and be distributed amongst a population like a fungus. That’s all it is. He emphasized the unique and intentional creation of two original humans, body and soul.

How did all the rest happen leading up to that? Why can’t we just allow science to do it’s work? It will always be a mystery, and Genesis does a great job of expressing the truth of God’s absolute creative power.
OK. I agree that the answer to your question is yes.

So what if we say that true humans (with a soul created by God) we call homo sapien while calling human-like creatures homo erectus? or something in-between like erectus2 (maybe there is a scientific name)? The so-called “missing link” which is almost-but-not-entirely sapient? It still lacked a soul created by God.

I don’t think either science or faith would have a problem with that.
Science does not examine the soul, but neither does it deny it (because the soul cannot be disproven by science).
 
It took a while, but we:
  1. Realized that we can no longer deny that the earth revolves around the sun
  2. Realized that we can no longer deny that human beings descended from primates
We now accept both of these and we are still Christians. Let’s not make the same mistake we made with Galileo.
My comment is intended to be totally charitable especially since many Catholics are not up to speed with current science.

May I respectfully point out that number 2. is not exactly current.

evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07
Misconceptions about humans
  1. Humans did not evolve from chimpanzees. Humans and chimpanzees are evolutionary cousins and share a recent common ancestor that was neither chimpanzee nor human.
Please note that the diagram (cladistics system) in this link omits the hominin lineage and goes directly to the final extant beings, humans.

From the Catholic Church position:

The direct challenge to the authentic doctrine of monogenism is that each point on the cladistics diagram represents a population including the final material/physical product --humans (plural intended) population. The underlying principle is that there has never been a population of two since the common ancestor population referred to as Homo/Pan Split – No Adam and Eve.

From my limited experience as an editor/researcher, it appears that the word population has replaced the term polygenism. Nonetheless, both mean many founders of humankind.

From the genetic viewpoint, the necessity of a large population further denies the existence of Adam and Eve. Without the existence of one original Adam in whom is all humanity “as one body of one man”, there is no one Original Sin. The Catholic Church knows that we cannot tamper with the revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Information source: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1; CCC 404; CCC 389.

Link to updated Catholic position.

hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/
 
Origin of the Human Species: Third Edition Dr Dennis Bonnette

Origin of the Human Species, a wide-ranging philosophical and interdisciplinary analysis of evolutionary theory, shows how authentic Catholic teaching on Adam and Eve and Original Sin is fully compatible with legitimate modern science, without committing to young-Earth scientific creationism or a theistic evolutionism that compromises Catholic belief.

This expanded third edition includes two new appendices: the first defends a literal Adam and Eve against recent claims that a single mating pair of first true human parents is scientifically impossible; the second shows why a purely Darwinian naturalistic explanation for the evolution of new and essentially superior forms of life is philosophically impossible. This work resolves many philosophical and theological issues raised by evolutionary theory.
 
My comment is intended to be totally charitable especially since many Catholics are not up to speed with current science.

May I respectfully point out that number 2. is not exactly current.

evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07
Misconceptions about humans
  1. Humans did not evolve from chimpanzees. Humans and chimpanzees are evolutionary cousins and share a recent common ancestor that was neither chimpanzee nor human.
Please note that the diagram (cladistics system) in this link omits the hominin lineage and goes directly to the final extant beings, humans.

From the Catholic Church position:

The direct challenge to the authentic doctrine of monogenism is that each point on the cladistics diagram represents a population including the final material/physical product --humans (plural intended) population. The underlying principle is that there has never been a population of two since the common ancestor population referred to as Homo/Pan Split – No Adam and Eve.

From my limited experience as an editor/researcher, it appears that the word population has replaced the term polygenism. Nonetheless, both mean many founders of humankind.

From the genetic viewpoint, the necessity of a large population further denies the existence of Adam and Eve. Without the existence of one original Adam in whom is all humanity “as one body of one man”, there is no one Original Sin. The Catholic Church knows that we cannot tamper with the revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Information source: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1; CCC 404; CCC 389.

Link to updated Catholic position.

hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/
I did not use the word “chimpanzees.”
That’s your word, not mine.

I used the word “primates.”
You changed it to “chimpanzees” in a vain attempt to prove it wrong.

Textbook fallacy.

You did not “respectfully point out” anything. You changed what I wrote to make what I wrote appear outdated. It doesn’t even rise to the level of “nice try.”

Your posts are still nothing more than classic, textbook fallacies. A Philosophy 101 professor could use your posts to teach a class.
 
THE MYTH OF THE “MYTH” OF ADAM AND EVE

Dennis Bonnette

"More daunting are the claims made by some molecular biologists against Adam and Eve’s possibility. Using a schema of common descent, some leading geneticists have claimed that, since the time – at least seven million years ago – that the lineages leading to chimpanzees diverged from those leading to modern human beings, there never has been a bottleneck (reduced population) of a single mating pair of hominins: no Adam and Eve.

The following comments upon genetics are based largely upon an examination of the recent scientific literature. Using current human genetic diversity, some researchers estimate that the “effective population size” (an idealized size of a breeding population) of the hominin population has never been smaller than one thousand in the last two million years, thereby, excluding the possibility of a single mating pair during that time. Still, these sorts of estimates are based on mathematical models, which depend upon many assumptions about stability of population dynamics, mutation rate, and so on. These assumptions are unlikely to represent real populations. Such difficulties have led other geneticists to infer that DNA sequence differences alone may not be sufficient to determine effective population size.

The most significant genetic objection against an historical Adam and Eve is the claim that, for some genes, there simply were too many ancient alleles, too many ancestral lineages, to have passed through a single mating pair of first true humans. In 1995, a study by geneticist Francisco J. Ayala, entitled, “The Myth of Eve: Molecular Biology and Human Origins,” epitomizes this objection, yet also reveals the inherent vulnerabilities of such claims. Ayala studied the highly polymorphic HLA-DRB1 gene, concluding that at the time of the Homo (human)/Pan (chimpanzee) split there must have been thirty-two separate versions of this gene present in the founding population. Since a single mating pair can pass through only four versions, he inferred that a bottleneck of two individuals as founders was not possible then or any time since. In fact, he insisted that the minimum number of individuals in the population could never have been less than four thousand.

However, Ayala based his claim on a very small portion of the gene, the portion where nearly all the polymorphism occurs. A later 1998 study headed by Tomas Bergström pointed out that using that portion violated the assumptions necessary for the estimate to be reliable. Using a portion of the gene not susceptible to frequent mutations, his group came to a very different conclusion, namely, that only seven ancient lineages of the HLA-DRB1 gene existed at the time of the Homo/Pan split. And in 2007, another study from Bergström’s group concluded that only four allelic lineages predate five million years ago, with a few more being present shortly after that time. Just two mating hominins could pass on four lineages; the appearance of several more lineages shortly after five million years ago remains unexplained.

We cannot conclude from these studies anything definitive about human origins. Nonetheless, it is truly astonishing how far downward these studies have come in their conclusions about the number of ancient HLA-DRB1 gene lineages – from thirty-two to seven to just four – underlining the tentativeness of scientific studies in this critical area of molecular biology. This progressive weakening of scientific claims is hardly supportive of dogmatic assertions of the “impossibility” of a single set of first parents, Adam and Eve. Unfortunately, Ayala’s unwarranted claims have strongly influenced public discussion of a literal Adam and Eve, while the later studies are largely unknown."

** Our Fragile Intellect **

Trends in Genetics references this paper - Our Fragile Intellect.(download) What is interesting about this is that we peaked 2000-6000 years ago and now are devolving. Or… we started out pristine with the preternatural gifts of bodily immortality and freedom from sickness and have lost it.

Analysis of 6,515 exomes reveals the recent origin of most human protein-coding variants 86% arose in the last 5-10,000 years.

** Past 5,000 years prolific for changes to human genome**

A study published today in Nature3 now helps to clarify when many of those rare variants arose. Researchers used deep sequencing to locate and date more than one million single-nucleotide variants — locations where a single letter of the DNA sequence is different from other individuals — in the genomes of 6,500 African and European Americans. The findings confirm their earlier work suggesting that the majority of variants, including potentially harmful ones, were picked up during the past 5,000–10,000 years. Researchers also saw the genetic stamp of the diverging migratory history of the two groups.

** Rocking the foundations of biology **

Here it is again - top down - DNA is not the sole transmitter of inheritance - paper after paper is now showing the inheritance epigenetic information - information is the driver.
 
** Designed changes vs random changes **

This paper shows that some “mutations” are designed changes directed by cellular machinery.

Genomic “tuning knobs” with implicit range are strategies for organisms to change and adapt as needed. We know about fine tuning in the universe, now we see it in life.
 
I did not use the word “chimpanzees.”
That’s your word, not mine.

I used the word “primates.”
You changed it to “chimpanzees” in a vain attempt to prove it wrong.

Textbook fallacy.

You did not “respectfully point out” anything. You changed what I wrote to make what I wrote appear outdated. It doesn’t even rise to the level of “nice try.”

Your posts are still nothing more than classic, textbook fallacies. A Philosophy 101 professor could use your posts to teach a class.
primates.*are *
 
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