Did Pope Francis Say That?

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SirStephen

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I was in a discussion with a fellow Catholic concerning priests who, in good conscience and in faith, believe they must break from their bishop.

It was noted that Pope Francis said something to the effect that, in the vein of “stirring things up” (ala his comment at the World Youth Day in Rio) that in these difficult days priest might have to take unpopular stands that may bring them into conflict with their diocese but that they must be brave and hold fast even if this means being punished if that is what comes.

So the question: Did Pope Francis really say something like this? If so, does anyone have a specific reference?
 
Let me start by saying that I don’t have an answer for your question butI’m going to ask that there should be a thread, sticky, or subforum with the title you choose! It’s a very, very common question. “What Did the Pope Really Say?”
 
Priests can take ‘unpopular’ stands but not stands against those taken by the church hierarchy. This is formal catholic teaching.
 
SirStephen said:
I was in a discussion with a fellow Catholic concerning priests who, in good conscience and in faith, believe they must break from their bishop.

It was noted that Pope Francis said something to the effect that, in the vein of “stirring things up” (ala his comment at the World Youth Day in Rio) that in these difficult days priest might have to take unpopular stands that may bring them into conflict with their diocese but that they must be brave and hold fast even if this means being punished if that is what comes.

So the question: Did Pope Francis really say something like this? If so, does anyone have a specific reference?
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I have never heard him say such a thing, and his own actions suggest the opposite: he excommunicated a priest in Australia for supporting same-sex “marriage” and women priests: catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/

You might show that article to your friends and tell them something like, “I’ve provided a source to show that the pope wants priests to follow the Church’s teachings, now please show me a source that shows otherwise.”
 
Let me start by saying that I don’t have an answer for your question butI’m going to ask that there should be a thread, sticky, or subforum with the title you choose! It’s a very, very common question. “What Did the Pope Really Say?”
 
SirStephen said:
So the question: Did Pope Francis really say something like this? If so, does anyone have a specific reference?
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The Pope is quote widely on many Internet sites. If your friend is positive that the Pope said this, all he has to do is find the citation. He won’t.
 
To be fair to the friend, the thrust of the conversation made it clear that it was NOT a situation where the priests actions put him conflict with the teachings of the Church but where the bishop might have strayed. And it was also in the sense of standing for the faith when besieged. There was nothing in what the person said that gave the sense that Pope F was way out there.
 
SirStephen said:
To be fair to the friend, the thrust of the conversation made it clear that it was NOT a situation where the priests actions put him conflict with the teachings of the Church but where the bishop might have strayed. And it was also in the sense of standing for the faith when besieged. There was nothing in what the person said that gave the sense that Pope F was way out there.
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didnt get you?
 
Actually, I don’t think the question was answered.

Pope Francis has made it clear that he believes much of the clergy is corrupt including some bishops. The Bishop of Bling comes to mind. While I think it not necessary, I could provide many links on this.

The discussion where this came up was not with a person who runs after every loose press release on what Pope Francis may have said, he is aware he is often deliberately misquoted. My sense was that he was making serious point where he at least believed he heard this statement quoted from the Pope where he would not do so if he hadn’t thought it credible. The question is not about what is often sensationally reported about the utterances of the pope.

I was skeptical about the reference and hence posted this question. But the question concerns an issue of fact on whether Pope F said something that, if true, would have a narrow application narrowly construed - or not. There was no sense in which it the discussion was about “there he goes again, Pope F undone by some errant statement.” Was not that type of discussion.

Hence, answers in this forum in the form of narratives concerning what the magisterium says or doesn’t say and what the normal rule on the obedience regarding priests to bishops was assumed as part of asking the question. Reforming the clergy is high on Pope Francis’s agenda and the discussion was in this context.

In this regard, the statement, if made, was months ago and does not concern any issue that may or may not be current.
 
Miserissima said:
Let me start by saying that I don’t have an answer for your question butI’m going to ask that there should be a thread, sticky, or subforum with the title you choose! It’s a very, very common question. “What Did the Pope Really Say?”
Click to expand...
I agree wholeheartedly! That does seem to come up an awful lot.
 
SirStephen said:
I was in a discussion with a fellow Catholic concerning priests who, in good conscience and in faith, believe they must break from their bishop.

It was noted that Pope Francis said something to the effect that, in the vein of “stirring things up” (ala his comment at the World Youth Day in Rio) that in these difficult days priest might have to take unpopular stands that may bring them into conflict with their diocese but that they must be brave and hold fast even if this means being punished if that is what comes.

So the question: Did Pope Francis really say something like this? If so, does anyone have a specific reference?
Click to expand...
It’s up to the person asking for clarification to come up with the reference. “Something to the effect of” can be misconstrued a million ways. Always ask for the person saying the “Pope said this or that” to find the exact source. It’s good homeowork and words must be taken in context.

Mary.
 
I actually regret posting this question on this forum. CAF used to reasonably good at being able to generate factual responses to factual questions. It seems that over the past few years it has become overrun by narrative enforcers who have no ability to answer the questions presented, but just to comment on them without actually contributing to the knowledge base.

Mary, (and others) I am asking this question in this forum for my own edification for my own purposes. I am not looking for advise on a question I did not ask. A good lawyer knows NEVER to ask a question you don’t know the answer to. As an element of my own due diligence on the question, this is one forum where I’d hoped I might a response - if one is available.

The question is not for the 96% who don’t know but rather to the 4% who might.
 
Maybe it would help if you clarified your question because I don’t think people are understanding what it is you want to know.

My understanding of your original question was “my friend said the Pope said something stupid. How do I prove him wrong?” And the responses you got are in line with that: tell your friend to provide a source; he won’t be able to do so and that takes care of the problem.

If that wasn’t your question, then what is it you want to know?
 
The discussion was about the need for the Church to have priests with faithful courage. The discussion was about priests who are under fire for being courageous in their faith and the spiritual courage necessary to be a good priests in these times where Pope Francis believes many in the seminaries are not up to that task. What is a priest to do if he is in a dioceses where your bishop is like the Bishop of Bling, or in a situation where you know your leaders are withholding information on sexual abuse etc.

These are issues where Pope Francis has come out and made very strong statements that make it clear that he will brook no tide with such people. He speaks often of the presence in the Church of those who took Holy Orders for the wrong reasons and they are an impediment to faith.

It was in this context that the person I was in the discussion with a Catholic - who is well aware of the faux reporting on many of the things attributed to Pope Francis - said that he noted that Pope Francis said that in days like these, sometimes a priest has to take a stand - in faith properly disposed - to do the right thing even if it means standing up to his local leadership and being sanctioned because of it. This entails a faith driven conviction of courage. There are saint in the Church who were priests who stood up to their leadership. Every major heresy in the Church can be traced back to a member of the ordained clergy. On this last point, we are not talking about that in this discussion, just putting it out there - that some priests opposed oppose Arch Bishop Nestorius (for example).

Pope Francis has certainly said - as reported in Catholic reporting circles - things that make it clear that he thinks the clergy is in deep crisis and this includes bishops. While it would surprise me somewhat that the Pope would make such a strong statement, it is in line with what he has been saying generally and maps to gravity the in which he speaks about it.

But I would still be surprised and I am looking for confirmation. So, before meeting with my friend again, I am looking to find out if Pope Francis said something like that - or something close to it - in preparation for that discussion.

I am not interested in lectures about the magisterium or on the duty of obedience of the priest to the bishop. This is understood. It would be noteworthy had the Pope said something like that because it would be indicative of his view of the seriousness of the issue. Arguing in favor of his possibly saying it (but not proof of his saying it) - is that priest in such circumstances should be aware of the punishment that comes from undertaking such an activity.

Pope Francis has accused many clerics, and at times whole classes of clerics, of clericalism.

So, I am undertaking my personal research to find if Pope Francis said something to this effect. For those who don’t know, fine. For those who may have heard it, they could affirm it OR they could say that “No, Pope Francis did not say this but he did say … but it still confirms his great concerns on this issue.”
 
… and NO, I did NOT say the person who made the point said something stupid and your answer did not answer the very straight forward question calling for a factual answer.
 
I think he was referring to priests talking about things to the parish members or the society in which they are located…I know in my parish, I think the priest really needs to address the problem of ‘fair weather catholics’ or people just going thru the motions each week, these kind of people make it bad for others imo and if they arent interested in actually living like a true catholic, then they need to find another church. This is a major problem at my parish…my father is 59 yrs old, has went to this church since he was a child, but when ive mentioned some bible verses to him here an there, he claims hes never heard of them, he also has never heard of the Nephilim…yet he has been a catholic for over 50+ yrs!!! somethings clearly wrong at the parish.

Ive also noticed our parish seems to have a pretty good relationship with local police, the city govt in which the church is located as well…this has always made me feel uneasy, I was under the impression Churches and secular city/county/state/fed govts are always against each other (for obvious reasons), but to see such a good relationship between 2 very different entities,just doesnt seem kosher imo, Id kind of expect city govts to always be trying to shut down or close churches in their towns, but that doesnt seem to be the case here!
 
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