Did popes murder those who read the bible

[Augustinian]

it is unwarranted to say that the Reformation led to the separation of Church and stat

I think the Reformation led indirectly to the separation of Church and state.

Various dissident religious groups from different strains of the Reformation came to America and when this country was organized, it was thought it would be best if America didn’t allow religious differences to separate us.

 

[c1949]

I think honest acknowledgment of the sins committed by Catholics, especially Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes is an important step toward healing the Body of Christ. We are seeing this again with the abuse scandal. Hiding the sins committed by leaders is counterproductive. Assassinating those who raise a call to order is the ultimate counterproductivity for the Church.

Certainly the laity are not hiding the sins of the priests, bishops, and pope, not in the current context. Even the victims have been speaking out for years. I’m not sure how you segregate Catholics for honestly acknowledging their sins. There’s been a whole lot of lies and crimes from the Protestant Churches. But, I will stop here, suggesting that all Christian denominations should make an “honest disclosure” of their sins. This is not the time or place to throw sticks and stones.

 

[c1949]

paragraph 841 of the CCC taken out of context. It’s not the only place where the CCC is vague. 841 is a quote taken from Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, section 15 or 16. The context is that the gospel should be preached to the Jews (who are not mentioned by name in that location) and to the Muslims who are mentioned by name there. When that one-page section is read on its own merits, the meaning is perfectly clear. We are not respecting the Muslim faith as much as you imply as the Church is showing respect to the people it wants to evangelize.

 

[guanophore]

it is unwarranted to say that the Reformation led to the separation of Church and state

I am interested in seeing otherwise.

The United States has a founding principle that is a direct result of the Reformation. My ancestors came here to escape the control of Anglicans and Catholics.

The reformation led to the “king” in various countries of Europe dictating the faith if the country.

This was not a consequence of the Reformation, but of the Holy Roman Empire. The practice of all the citizens adopting the faith of the Emperor was present in the Roman Empire centuries before Christ. This practice continued after the birth of Christ, and eventually the Roman Emperors (beginning with Constantine) dictated that all citizens of their realm embrace the true religion.

The Pope, and the Catholic Church in general, considered it expedient for all rulers to be Catholic, and to insist upon Catholicism among their subjects. This is how the conflation of Church and State occurred in the first place.

The result of the Reformation, long term, has been the secularization of Europe.

You won’t get an argument about me on this point!! I think the same is true for the United States.

The Reformation undermined the influence and control of the Catholic Church,

This was a blessing from God, as the Church had no business attempting to control secular affairs.

the disagreements and skepticism has led to undermining the authority of scripture as well.

This is true, but was unavoidable… Once the printing press was invented, there was no way to keep the Scriptures within the Sacred Tradition from whence they came. Now it remains for Catholics to become catechized in their faith, so that the faith may be propagated as Jesus intended.

 

[guanophore]

Certainly the laity are not hiding the sins of the priests, bishops, and pope

I was referring to historical events, not the present.

I’m not sure how you segregate Catholics for honestly acknowledging their sins.

In the current context, it is quite clear that there have been decades of occlusion relating to sexual sins by members of the clergy.

suggesting that all Christian denominations should make an “honest disclosure” of their sins. This is not the time or place to throw sticks and stones.

No, Catholics are not in a position to ask this of our separated brethren, since the LOG in our own eye is about the size of a Sequoiadendron giganteum!

 

[guanophore]

We are not respecting the Muslim faith as much as you imply as the Church is showing respect to the people it wants to evangelize.

Catholics are to respect that the Muslims are the children of Ishmael, the son of Abraham and are monotheists. I did not “imply” or otherwise state that they did not need to come to know Jesus. My point is that the medieval attitude toward muslims is different than what is in the current catechism.

 

[c1949]

A thousand years before the Reformation, St. Jerome said to know the scriptures was to know Christ; to be ignorant of scriptures was to be ignorant of Christ. The Church canonized the list of books in the Bible for liturgical use.

A lot of misconceptions in the preceding comments can be cleared up reading the following book. For example, Wiker claims that Luther never nailed his theses to the door at Wittenburg. He mailed them to somebody. He says something about reading the Bible being banned for some periosd of time, but I can’t find the quote right now.

https://www.amazon.com/Reformation-...1&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=ben+wiker+reformation

 

[c1949]

No, Catholics are not in a position to ask this of our separated brethren, since the LOG in our own eye is about the size of a Sequoiadendron giganteum!

well, you have your rules, that’s for sure. But, I’m not sure why you want to suppress the sins of the Reformers and their followers. We need some academic freedom here.

 

[phil19034]

c1949:

it is unwarranted to say that the Reformation led to the separation of Church and stat

I think the Reformation led indirectly to the separation of Church and state.

Various dissident religious groups from different strains of the Reformation came to America and when this country was organized, it was thought it would be best if America didn’t allow religious differences to separate us.

I think the separation of Church and state was really more of a product of the “Enlightenment” and less the protestant revolt (aka Protestant Reformation).

However, yes, the Protestantism indirectly made it much easier for the “Enlightenment” thinkers to push their agenda & ideas.

 

[guanophore]

well, you have your rules, that’s for sure.

Sorry, I don’t know what this means. Everyone here has to follow the same forum rules.

But, I’m not sure why you want to suppress the sins of the Reformers and their followers. We need some academic freedom here.

Honestly, I am not in any position to “supress the sins” of anyone, Reformers or Catholics.

This is not an “academic” site so I am not sure how your claim to freedom applies, but members are allowed to express their views equally, so long as they dont’ depart from the forum rules.

 

[c1949]

the rule you expressed in one of your posts was to limit the discussion to the sins of the Catholic Church, and my response was that that is too narrow a viewpoint. A protestant point of view that I have heard again and again is, to point out one thing about the Catholic Church that somebody doesn’t like and then to make the general conclusion that Catholicism is a false religion. If that same standard would be used against ALL churches. there would be a lot of blame to go around, NOT just to the Catholic Church. There is sex abuse in most if not all Christian Churches – the Catholic Church is the favorite target of the media.

In Pennsylvania, for example, the investigation is into the CC and avoids any look-see into problems in the public school. This is not to discount ANY problems in the CC, but that society has a general problem, not just the CC.

 

[AlNg]

The CC has always taught that the Scriptures need to be read in context, and that context is the Church.

Here’s what the Council of Trent said:
Whereas it is evident from experience, that, if the sacred books be permitted in the vulgar tongue indiscriminately, more harm than utility arises therefrom by reason of the temerity of men, in this respect let it depend on the discretion of the bishop or inquisitor, so that with the counsel of the parish priest or the confessor, they can grant to them the reading of the books translated by Catholic authors in the vulgar tongue, such persons as they may consider may derive not injury, but an increase of faith and of piety from such reading; which power they may have with respect to the scriptures. But whosoever shall presume to read them without such power, let him not be able to obtain absolution of his sins, unless he has first given back the books to the ordinary. But the booksellers, who shall sell the Bible written in the vulgar tongue, to a person not having the aforesaid power, or shall in any other way grant it, is to lose the price of the books, which shall be converted by the bishop to pious purposes, and they shall be subject to other penalties, according to the quality of the offence, at the discretion of the same bishop. But regulars are not to have the power of reading or buying them, unless they have power to do so from their prelates.

 

[guanophore]

the rule you expressed in one of your posts was to limit the discussion to the sins of the Catholic Church

OIC, well, it is not a"rule" I am just pointing out that the CC has sufficient “logs” to take out that we are not in a position to remove specks from any other ecclesial communities. It does not help our problems to normalize them by comparing them to problems of others.

A protestant point of view that I have heard again and again is, to point out one thing about the Catholic Church that somebody doesn’t like and then to make the general conclusion that Catholicism is a false religion.

I have heard this too, and especially from lapsed Catholics who have gone to non-denom churches. The current scandal has scattered many of the sheep.

If that same standard would be used against ALL churches. there would be a lot of blame to go around, NOT just to the Catholic Church.

Absolutely, I think you hit this nail on the head. I don’t think blame is life giving (it does not seem to have been since the Garden of Eden) and our energies are better focused taking responsiblity for those things we are able and to work for change.

There is sex abuse in most if not all Christian Churches – the Catholic Church is the favorite target of the media.

The CC is the favorite target because she is the only one that claims to be the Church that teaches the Truth without error and claims to have the fullness of Christ residing in her. This is the highest standard, so of course, when we are measured against it, there will be even more blame.

We claim that the priest holds the very body, blood, soul, and divinity in his hands at the Eucharist. Will those hands be the same that have committed such grave sin? Believe me, I hate the bad press too because it brings shame to Christ and His Church, but the standard is higher for us so the media will swarm it.

society has a general problem, not just the CC.

I think society has had this general problem for millenia. I think it is high time that it come to the surface, be reported, and be corrected.

I am not sure what any of that has to do with the Popes murdering those who read the bible?

 

[guanophore]

if the sacred books be permitted in the vulgar tongue indiscriminately, more harm than utility arises therefrom by reason of the temerity of men,

And we see this is exactly what happened. The interpretation by individuals outside of the context in which Holy Scriptures were produced, has spawned an innumerable count of ecclesial communities and behaviors never intended by the authors. Sola Scriptura is a doctrine formed to create division, and itself creates more division.

 

[Zynxensar]

Where do people even get this information from? The Church ENCOURAGED people to read the Bible. If he’s referring to how the Church keeps the Bible locked up, that’s because Bibles were very expensive in those days. Can’t have people stealing that now, can they?

 

[Lwamsfarr51]

Do your home work have you heard about the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Lwamsfarr51]

It was about people who left the Catholic Church and believed in the authority of bible alone and not church law as well.

 

[twf]

The SPANISH Inquisition? No…Protestantism never caught on in Spain. The Spanish Inquisition was much more concerned with crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims trying to pass as Christians.