Did Protestants save the Catholic Church?

[OrthodoxJosh]

The Protestants themselves did not save anything, however as you said the Catholic Reformation/the counter-reformation was the Catholic Church’s reaction to the Protestant Reformation so in a way they did help the Catholic Church. But this ‘‘help’’ can be compared with the advice a devastating fire gives to a town made of wood, the fire makes the people realize that it might be a good idea to make buildings out of stone since it won’t burn down as easily. The fire did not do anything good in itself, neither the Protestant Reformation, at least not from a Catholic view. Well ok, I admit that the Protestant Reformation has contributed to some positive things, like a Bible translation not made in Latin but in my own language.

Perhaps, but if you have a wound on your body you don’t have to die from it right? And the fact that all Christians don’t stand united is a great wound on the Body of Christ, which we also knows as the Church, even if it won’t die because of it.

Remember that the Bible was always translated into the vernacular, along with the divine services, in the Orthodox Church. So, the reformation wasn’t necessarily the only way that came about.

 

[Contarini]

Remember that the Bible was always translated into the vernacular, along with the divine services, in the Orthodox Church. So, the reformation wasn’t necessarily the only way that came about.

And the Bible was printed in most major Western European languages (English being the only exception I know of) before the Reformation. Yes, there were conservative clergy who disapproved, but (except in England, because of the Lollards) there was no general rule against it–until that pestiferous “Counter-Reformation” that everyone seems to love for some reason.

Edwin

 

[Kc906]

No matter how the reformers “spin” it, their direct actions caused a rift in Jesus’ one Church on earth. At no place in the Word of God is there a mention that if you personally believe THE Church is doing wrong that you should break off and start your own church with unique teachings based on your personal interpretation of the Word.

Jesus and his apostles taught unity; the body of Christ is God’s family on earth. If you have a disagreement with your family member(s), do you not pray and discuss the disagreements so the family member can get back on the right track? Are we supposed to disown our own Son/Daughter because they might have fallen down in one way or another, or would it not be better to dedicate your life to bringing your family back together, under God? Divorce is not the will of God, but the choice of man.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13

10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Andromedus]

Remember that the Bible was always translated into the vernacular, along with the divine services, in the Orthodox Church. So, the reformation wasn’t necessarily the only way that came about.

Hmm yes, but I live in a country with a low percentage of Eastern Orthodox Christians and I don’t know if Latin Rite priests translated the Bible during earlier times in history, if they could translate at all. However, I actually thought more about the fact that I would not be able to read the Bible myself.

And the Bible was printed in most major Western European languages (English being the only exception I know of) before the Reformation. Yes, there were conservative clergy who disapproved, but (except in England, because of the Lollards) there was no general rule against it–until that pestiferous “Counter-Reformation” that everyone seems to love for some reason.

Edwin

Thats interesting, I didn’t know that, however it would still not apply to me since I speak Swedish and I am quite sure that there was no such thing as a Swedish Bible. I am not sure that I agree with it but some people even says that our language was created because of the Bible translation of Gustav Vasa, perhaps you could call him our Henry VIII.

 

[OchsFam]

Well ok, I admit that the Protestant Reformation has contributed to some positive things, like a Bible translation not made in Latin but in my own language.

That actually isn’t true and on two points. First, when the Bible was translated into Latin, it was a translation into the vernacular. Second, there were translations of the Bible in various languages long before the reformation so in reality the protestants didn’t bring anything new to the table, just another heresy. Same old thing, different generation. The real catalyst to wide-spread distribution of the Bible in local languages was the printing press which just happened to coincide with the reformation. The first book printed on the press was a Catholic Bible. This would have happened without the reformation.

I think to answer the question of the OP, you can use the same answer as you would to the question of “did the act of crucifixion save the us from eternal damnation?” I would argue that eternal salvation would happen regardless of the method just as the corrections would have happened regardless of the reformation. The reformation was just another heresy that needed to be addressed and it was the instrument God used to purify the Church. God works in spite of evil, he does not use evil to work.

God Bless.

 

[Andromedus]

That actually isn’t true and on two points. First, when the Bible was translated into Latin, it was a translation into the vernacular. Second, there were translations of the Bible in various languages long before the reformation so in reality the protestants didn’t bring anything new to the table, just another heresy. Same old thing, different generation. The real catalyst to wide-spread distribution of the Bible in local languages was the printing press which just happened to coincide with the reformation. The first book printed on the press was a Catholic Bible. This would have happened without the reformation.

It is still true for me though, because as I said in post 24, there was no translation into Swedish before the Reformation in Sweden and that was probably the case in some other countries as well. Perhaps there would have been a Swedish Bible anyway, but what happened happened and the translation was a consequence of the Protestant Reformation.

 

[sallybutler]

My question is “did the Protestant Reformation save the Catholic Church?”

Where would the RCC be without the reactive Catholic-Reformation?

Competition often help us ‘improve our game’ and God knows humans better than we do

The RCC would be the RCC.

I don’t think God has put competing churches and doctrines in place. Believe it or not, man is quite capable of this. And God, in His Wisdom, has given us free will. This means some choose other than God. God will use that to help His Church, but I suspect He would rather everyone chose Him first.

Satan also knows humans better than humans do.

 

[stewstew03]

Some people don’t want answers unless there’s a link to some Catholic document somewhere to justify the answer.

I think that’s because usually people have a question regarding the Church’s teaching on a particular issue or subject (e.g., family planning).

The same way Protestants only believe in something if it can be justified by a verse in the Bible.

As a Catholic, I tend to hold the Bible in high esteem as well (prima scriptura).

 

[jerry_joseph]

Jerry, but if reforms inside the church were not working, then an outside influence was required

Should one burn down one’s house for fear of rats?.If there is problem of rats inside the house, wise men will take steps to eliminate rats from the house. Fools will burn the house . The deed of Luther is like burning the house , instead of finding solution for it.

It gave a golden chance for the enemies of church who are waiting to get a chance to destroy Christianity at any cost. So he got support among those rulers and groups who are waiting to get a chance to destroy Christianity.

“The branch cannot bear fruit by itself but has to remain part of the vine” (John 15:4).

Likewise those churches which are separated from the one true catholic church cannot bear fruits for a long time. It may remain green for a small time and then dries off. When these churches separates , the enemies can easily destroy these smaller churches with less effort.

You can find many such examples from history. Look at the cases of those heretic churches separated from the catholic church in early centuries such as Neztorians and Maniceans. They were once a majority or a big minority community in the middle east, central asia and tibet . But where is these churches and christian communities now?.

Same thing is happening in the traditional protestant countries of europe. Majority of its adherents are now claiming that they are athiests or non religionists or adherents of any eastern mysticism. Some are already converted to other eastern religions. Traditional protestant countries are a fertile land for eastern religions. Traditional protestant churches once seperated from catholic church was seen as green for a small period and now they are slowly dying. Same as what happened in the case of early heretic churches.

So learn from history. Those who fails to learn from history will perish. It is not the fault of others . It is only their fault. If a person is getting cheated by others, it is not mainly due to the skill of the cheater , but due to the incapability of the cheated ,who fails to identify the trap.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think that’s because usually people have a question regarding the Church’s teaching on a particular issue or subject (e.g., family planning).

There’s more to teachings than official Church documents. I wonder how the Apostles taught when they have nothing but the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ in their heads.

As a Catholic, I tend to hold the Bible in high esteem as well (prima scriptura).

Nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying that our use of Scripture is starting to mimic Protestant use, which is uncharacteristic and untraditional, and is not really what Scripture was meant to be used for.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Extreme legalism is just another form of Sola Scriptura. As a question here about the Catholic faith and you’ll get replies quoting Canon Law, CCC, and other documents, rather than good, sound Catholic teaching. For example, “why do we fast?” Answer, “because canon XXX says so”. Legalism.

But ConstantineTG, you’re implying that those of us who attend the OF or even are just ordinary Catholics are legalistic due to the form of the Mass we attend. There are many many many of us Joe Catholics who actually know the reason behind what we do. There are also many many many of us who just do and don’t ask questions, or do the most minimal that they can. I do not believe the western Church is the reason behind legalism, but it’s people which you’ll find in ALL of the Church everywhere who decide what they will follow.

As to the question: No I don’t believe the Protestants saved the CC. God always brings good out of evil. He even brought good from the worst evil of all… the painful death of His own Son brought about salvation for humanity. Jesus doesn’t lie, His promise lives.

 

[jerry_joseph]

There’s more to teachings than official Church documents. I wonder how the Apostles taught when they have nothing but the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ in their heads.

Your argument is stupid. It is true that the Apostles by words of christ and holy spirit laid the foundation of the church. Later , from that foundation church leaders with the guidance of holy spirit built the walls and roof of the church (its sacraments and traditions).

For eg: A kindergarten child may go to his play schools with empty hand. May be teacher teaches him there small small rhymes and alphabets. When he matures and passes to higher grades he is provided with new subjects to learn. Like wise when church grown up , it is provided with new teachings and traditions by God through the guidance of holy spirit.

“I gave you milk and not solid food, for you were not ready for it and up to now you cannot receive it”

• 1 Corinthians 3,2

“You should be teachers by this time, but in fact you need to be taught again the basic elements of God’s teaching. You need milk, not solid food.”

• Hebrews 5,12

“Solid food is for adults who have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”

• Hebrews 5,14

So if you feels that you dont require sacraments and holy traditions of church (solid food ) you are accepting that you are an immatured kid who cannot understand big things.

 

[stewstew03]

There’s more to teachings than official Church documents. I wonder how the Apostles taught when they have nothing but the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ in their heads… I’m just saying that our use of Scripture is starting to mimic Protestant use, which is uncharacteristic and untraditional, and is not really what Scripture was meant to be used for.

Okay, two questions for you: (1) how should Tradition be handed down through the generations, and (2) what is the intended use of Scripture?

[By the way, I don’t agree that your argument is ‘stupid’ - I’m just trying to flesh out your argument; it’s still not clear to me.]

 

[Bezant]

I would say it ruined it. In my opinion, the Reformation is more successful than the Catholic Church would admit. Just look around and see how Protestant the Roman Catholic faith is today. And I’m not talking about the OF Mass. People just express themselves more like Evangelicals than Catholics. Extreme legalism is just another form of Sola Scriptura. As a question here about the Catholic faith and you’ll get replies quoting Canon Law, CCC, and other documents, rather than good, sound Catholic teaching. For example, “why do we fast?” Answer, “because canon XXX says so”. Legalism.

Very interesting insight Constantine.

 

[SmallCcatholic]

I thought about this and think the cc was reaping from what it sowed. It split from the others sees and that was history…Sin begets more sin. Ever wonder why the protestant split didn’t happen in the oc church. Throughout history and even today the cc is plagued with issues/scandal compared to the oc irregardless of the size.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But ConstantineTG, you’re implying that those of us who attend the OF or even are just ordinary Catholics are legalistic due to the form of the Mass we attend. There are many many many of us Joe Catholics who actually know the reason behind what we do. There are also many many many of us who just do and don’t ask questions, or do the most minimal that they can. I do not believe the western Church is the reason behind legalism, but it’s people which you’ll find in ALL of the Church everywhere who decide what they will follow.

As to the question: No I don’t believe the Protestants saved the CC. God always brings good out of evil. He even brought good from the worst evil of all… the painful death of His own Son brought about salvation for humanity. Jesus doesn’t lie, His promise lives.

Sorry, I didn’t insinuate that. Can you tell me where I said that OF Catholics are legalistic? I am willing to clarify what I said if my point was confusing to you which led you to believe something other than what I was trying to say.

I don’t believe that the Western Church is the reason behind legalism. I believe its the Reformation. And that is why I said the Reformation is far more successful that we would admit.

Your argument is stupid. It is true that the Apostles by words of christ and holy spirit laid the foundation of the church. Later , from that foundation church leaders with the guidance of holy spirit built the walls and roof of the church (its sacraments and traditions).

For eg: A kindergarten child may go to his play schools with empty hand. May be teacher teaches him there small small rhymes and alphabets. When he matures and passes to higher grades he is provided with new subjects to learn. Like wise when church grown up , it is provided with new teachings and traditions by God through the guidance of holy spirit.

“I gave you milk and not solid food, for you were not ready for it and up to now you cannot receive it”

• 1 Corinthians 3,2

“You should be teachers by this time, but in fact you need to be taught again the basic elements of God’s teaching. You need milk, not solid food.”

• Hebrews 5,12

“Solid food is for adults who have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”

• Hebrews 5,14

So if you feels that you dont require sacraments and holy traditions of church (solid food ) you are accepting that you are an immatured kid who cannot understand big things.

Do we have to resort to using the word “stupid”? If you want your point to be taken seriously, act maturely and charitably.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Sorry, I didn’t insinuate that. Can you tell me where I said that OF Catholics are legalistic? I am willing to clarify what I said if my point was confusing to you which led you to believe something other than what I was trying to say.

I don’t believe that the Western Church is the reason behind legalism. I believe its the Reformation. And that is why I said the Reformation is far more successful that we would admit.

I suppose I took many of your latest posts in previous threads and read between the lines. I even agree on some of your points there, but I often come away with the feeling that you are comparing the Latin Rite to the Rite you attend. I was trying to convey that it’s not necessarily true. We are all affected by the wounds of reformation, but I don’t necessarily think that legalism is involved, rather, that humanity itself within the Church is to blame.

I apologise for bringing in the baggage from other posts. A human fault that I have is that I don’t know when to shut up sometimes. I really should have treated this post separately. That’s one of the things I’m known for in person… reading between the lines within conversation, and reading body language to the point of it affecting my own emotions. Doesn’t work so well within a forum

 

[Telstar]

Tony, you really are a piece of work. You found yourself incapable of effectively defending your newly ‘adopted’ LDS beliefs in one thread, so in your frustration you decided to pose this extremely divisive question, that you knew full well would start a verbal ‘holy war’ between representatives of every Christian faith on the forum, as a diversion? Or, was it just for your own, personal, deviant entertainment purposes? I’m guessing it was probably both. Either way, it certainly looks like we’ve all been ‘had’, again. This isn’t the first time that you’ve done the same kind of thing when you found yourself on the losing end of an argument, and it probably won’t be the last, so I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Touché!

 

[mro]

There is the little problem of the medieval church selling indulgences and operating the inquisition…

There’s no way you can buy your way or donate your way to heaven…

The Popes of the era were committing grave sins and simony…

 

[Telstar]

There is the little problem of the medieval church selling indulgences and operating the inquisition…

There’s no way you can buy your way or donate your way to heaven…

The Popes of the era were committing grave sins and simony…

The Catholic Church never approved of anyone ‘selling indulgences’. That was a practice engaged in by some misguided, or unscrupulous, individual members of the clergy that were doing it on their own, against the actual teachings of the Church. They were using special indulgences and blessings as a means of enticing people to support certain charitable functions with their donations, but some of them were abusing the practice for nefarious purposes.

You can read more about the true purpose of Indulgences, and the controversial abuses of them, here. Indulgences.

You might want to read up on the true history of the Church from better sources, before making rash statements about them.