Did Protestants save the Catholic Church?

[GaryTaylor]

We must understand the why behind every practice.

Certainly doesn’t seem to consistant with your thinking on the other thread. Where Marybeloved asked a question…where’s the Blind Faith here:shrug:

 

[pablope]

My question is “did the Protestant Reformation save the Catholic Church?”

Where would the RCC be without the reactive Catholic-Reformation?

Competition often help us ‘improve our game’ and God knows humans better than we do

There were reformers within the Church prior to Luther.

If not already mentioned, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Francis and St. Dominic.

They reformed the CC from within, and did not go out and establish their own denominations or religions, and now, they are canonized saints.

I would suggest that you look into their lives on how they affected reforms and you can contrast it with Luther’s.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m not sure what changes came to the CC as a result of the reformation. Council of Trent came, yet I don’t see great change within the church, though as a result came V-1. The council defined Protestant heresies and defined Church teachings in the areas of the Sacraments, the Eucharist, Holy Mass Veneration of the Saints etc.

As far as heresy, its simply not new in the church, its existed from the 1st century foward. The fact that the gates of hell shall never prevail is in evidence. For if it had, then we can state for certain “christianity” itself is a mockery. For the gates of hell includes all heresy.

That said I don’t see much difference in many protestant denominations. In fact I believe there are many very good Christians in the church.

On the other side of the coin we also see exactly …how many denominations, that are very damaging, gone astray, and remain unchecked? For you can preach just about anything you want including your own idea of Christainity. And this is what we see to a very large degree, and in the name of profit.

Certainly protestants didn’t save anything, for that was always in Gods hand. What good or bad was done is a good question. I see it objectively, so for me, it just is.

They are not dangerous or violent, and certainly have the right to religious freedom. I have no contempt for them. I have a concern on a world level as to just how bad the Christian persecution will become. I find it astounding we will stand up for abortion, same sex marriage, gay rights, legal dope. But no-one will do anything about those Christians being killed.

Peace

 

[ConstantineTG]

Certainly doesn’t seem to consistant with your thinking on the other thread. Where Marybeloved asked a question…where’s the Blind Faith here:shrug:

I never advocated blind faith. I’ve always advocated people to understand the faith. Every practice we have has a meaning, and it should point us towards God. If we do not understand why we do something, then its an empty gesture. This is what Jesus condemned as traditions of men. When people do for the sake of doing because the law says so. How many people fast because the law says so, and not because we understand why we must fast? I’m a grown man when I found out the true reason we fast. And I’ve known religiously devout people who either just found out why we fast, or until today doesn’t know why we fast but they do because those are the rules.

 

[Nicea325]

My question is “did the Protestant Reformation save the Catholic Church?”

Where would the RCC be without the reactive Catholic-Reformation?

Competition often help us ‘improve our game’ and God knows humans better than we do

I would not say they “saved” the CC,but rather they caused the CC to wake up to its errors.

 

[Andromedus]

Well, first of all, as someone else has said, the translation into Latin originally was a translation into the vernacular. As Christianity spread to non-Latin areas, there were translations of parts of the Bible into the vernaculars, even though worship remained in Latin. Most literate people, until the later Middle Ages, only read Latin anyway. In the later Middle Ages there wasn’t as much translation of the Bible as there might have been because of concerns about heretics misappropriating the Bible (from the Catholic Church’s perspective). However, there were more translations than most people think, and there was a lot of paraphrasing and exposition in the vernacular, especially carried out by the mendicant orders.

What I meant with ‘‘if they could translate at all’’ was that the education a priest had during those times were sometimes not so good and therefore they might not have been able to translate the text into the local language at all even if they tried. But I don’t know if a ‘‘normal’’ priest had any problems with Latin, but I suspect some had. However, one of the things the Church got better at after the Council of Trent was the education of priests, if what I remember is correct. For us in the North it got worse with the education because of the Lutherans… at least for a while.

It appears that there wasn’t a complete Bible–but significant parts were translated: there was a paraphrase of the Pentateuch from the early 14th century and one of the Acts from the late 14th century, and there were more literal translations of some of the other historical books as well as Revelation, made at the end of the 15th century. See *The Nordic Languages: An International Handbook of the History of the North Germanic Languages, *ed. Oskar Bundle et al.(De Gruyter, 2005), vol. 2, pp. 1204-5 (you can find this on Google Books, which is where I found it).

Edwin

I don’t doubt that there might have been some parts translated, but what I do know is that there was no translation of the whole Bible before the translation during the reformation and that translation had a huge impact on the Swedish language. But I have heard about a Catholic priest during the reformation who claimed that St. Bridget had a translation in Old Norse, but there are some reasons to doubt that.

I would not say they “saved” the CC,but rather they caused the CC to wake up to its errors.

If you with ‘‘errors’’ mean that there was some corruption in the Church during the time of the Reformation, I agree.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I would not say they “saved” the CC,but rather they caused the CC to wake up to its errors.

No, actually they didn’t. Do you really think that if the ‘protestants’ hadn’t protested, that 'the Catholic Church" (which by the way doesn’t ERR ANYWAY") would never have had any of ITS members work to correct the errors of INDIVIDUALS?

Um, wasn’t Martin Luther a Catholic Augustinian member of the clergy? I mean, it wasn’t like he was 'Joe Schmo, pew sitter". Had he refrained from his OWN errors and stayed within the Church, he’d be St. Martin Luther, we would have a UNITED CHRISTENDOM (The Orthodox having reconciled with Rome several times briefly and almost certainly would have come through because the whole Muslim charge would have been dealt with), and God knows how much more good would have been done in the world with Christians united.

 

[Nicea325]

No, actually they didn’t. Do you really think that if the ‘protestants’ hadn’t protested, that 'the Catholic Church" (which by the way doesn’t ERR ANYWAY") would never have had any of ITS members work to correct the errors of INDIVIDUALS?

Um, wasn’t Martin Luther a Catholic Augustinian member of the clergy? I mean, it wasn’t like he was 'Joe Schmo, pew sitter". Had he refrained from his OWN errors and stayed within the Church, he’d be St. Martin Luther, we would have a UNITED CHRISTENDOM (The Orthodox having reconciled with Rome several times briefly and almost certainly would have come through because the whole Muslim charge would have been dealt with), and God knows how much more good would have been done in the world with Christians united.

I know what you mean and I agree. However,I was not referring to errors in regards to doctrine or dogma.

 

[Andromedus]

Now that I think about it, it would perhaps have been a bit weird if they could not translate anything at all, writing that they could not was perhaps a bit stupid of me. So, I take that back, until I see any proof on the contrary. But I dare to say that most would probably not have been able to improvise a sermon in Latin.

 

[Nicea325]

What I meant with ‘‘if they could translate at all’’ was that the education a priest had during those times were sometimes not so good and therefore they might not have been able to translate the text into the local language at all even if they tried. But I don’t know if a ‘‘normal’’ priest had any problems with Latin, but I suspect some had. However, one of the things the Church got better at after the Council of Trent was the education of priests, if what I remember is correct. For us in the North it got worse with the education because of the Lutherans… at least for a while.

I don’t doubt that there might have been some parts translated, but what I do know is that there was no translation of the whole Bible before the translation during the reformation and that translation had a huge impact on the Swedish language. But I have heard about a Catholic priest during the reformation who claimed that St. Bridget had a translation in Old Norse, but there are some reasons to doubt that.

If you with ‘‘errors’’ mean that there was some corruption in the Church during the time of the Reformation, I agree.

Yes I am referring to the corruption.

 

[CopticChristian]

Now that I think about it, it would perhaps have been a bit weird if they could not translate anything at all, writing that they could not was perhaps a bit stupid of me. So, I take that back, until I see any proof on the contrary. But** I dare to say that most would probably not have been able to improvise a sermon in Latin**.

I could probably improvise a sermon in Latin with a little help based on my experience with the Latin mass. I also have a year of High School Latin under my belt. The latin mass was the norm…Consider that many do not understand that Latin was used as a means of communication not only in the mass but in writing…

John Calvin…one of the disordered proponents of Protestant thought, that thought that has been transmitted in time, that many have come to believe that the Bible was kept from people to be read in English…

John Calvin published his institutes of Religion in Latin…

Luther’s famous 95 theses was written in Latin…

Prelude on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, one of three major works by Luther was published in Latin…a translation of this work was quickly published in German by Luther’s opponent, the Strasbourg Franciscan Thomas Murner. He hoped that by making people aware of the radical nature of Luther’s beliefs, they would realise their foolishness in supporting him. So much for trying to reach the common man…

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Protestants certainly didn’t see themselves as an “outside influence.”

And what does it mean for reforms to “work,” anyway?

I don’t think that’s how real renewal happens. The Church, as a human institution, is always a shoddy, corrupt, shambling mess. But God keeps renewing it anyway. It is forever being corrupted and forever being renewed. The idea that there’s some program of reform that will “work” is a fatal temptation. It is the seed of destruction within Protestantism, and it did serious damage to Catholicism as well.

Edwin

I agree, the Protestant temptation is one that relies on viewing Christ and the Holy Spirit as having abandoned His Church. This is a temptation that hasn’t ceased to exist.

 

[Andromedus]

I could probably improvise a sermon in Latin with a little help based on my experience with the Latin mass. I also have a year of High School Latin under my belt. The latin mass was the norm…Consider that many do not understand that Latin was used as a means of communication not only in the mass but in writing…

John Calvin…one of the disordered proponents of Protestant thought, that thought that has been transmitted in time, that many have come to believe that the Bible was kept from people to be read in English…

John Calvin published his institutes of Religion in Latin…

Luther’s famous 95 theses was written in Latin…

Prelude on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, one of three major works by Luther was published in Latin…a translation of this work was quickly published in German by Luther’s opponent, the Strasbourg Franciscan Thomas Murner. He hoped that by making people aware of the radical nature of Luther’s beliefs, they would realise their foolishness in supporting him. So much for trying to reach the common man…

I should stop saying things about the knowledge of Latin among the priests since what I really was trying to say was that the education of priests became better after the Council of Trent. agh, I should hit myself in the head with something…

I agree, the Protestant temptation is one that relies on viewing Christ and the Holy Spirit as having abandoned His Church. This is a temptation that hasn’t ceased to exist.

The original Protestants thought that they returned to how the Old Church was, they were wrong but still they thought that was what they were doing. Some Protestants after them though don’t think like that and have said things like ‘‘the reformation must go on’’. Martin Luther probably turns in his grave right now…

 

[Nicea325]

I should stop saying things about the knowledge of Latin among the priests since what I really was trying to say was that the education of priests became better after the Council of Trent. agh, I should hit myself in the head with something…

The original Protestants thought that they returned to how the Old Church was, they were wrong but still they thought that was what they were doing. Some Protestants after them though don’t think like that and have said things like ‘‘the reformation must go on’’. Martin Luther probably turns in his grave right now…

The question being begged is:

Has the Protestant Reformation actually stopped or is it still active?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The question being begged is:

Has the Protestant Reformation actually stopped or is it still active?

Very much active, and very much affecting the Catholic Church. Whether its with the same intention and drive as Luther, probably not. But we’ve become very “Evangelical” in our everyday faith. The influence of the Protestant groups are strong, given they control more of the media than Catholics do.

 

[CopticChristian]

Very much active, and very much affecting the Catholic Church. Whether its with the same intention and drive as Luther, probably not. But we’ve become very “Evangelical” in our everyday faith. **The influence of the Protestant groups are strong, given they control more of the media than Catholics do./**QUOTE]

Media. You give power to the media. I wonder how in the past information was transmitted and the effect it had on Christianity as it has spread. What media was used? Media is nothing new, just the forms…

The Protestant thought to destroy the Church is very active so what is new. The Church will face that until Christ returns I believe, so what…There was an attempt at some sort of leadership in the early Heretical days of those that departed as evidenced by the Synod of Dort and that should serve as a prognosticator for the effectiveness of the Protestant thought in time…I doubt there will ever be anything resmbling Protestant unity in time…this should be something that many that see Protestant thought as a vehicle for uniting could never be…The past to the present is a puzzle of disunity…

 

[Nicea325]

Very much active, and very much affecting the Catholic Church. Whether its with the same intention and drive as Luther, probably not. But we’ve become very “Evangelical” in our everyday faith. The influence of the Protestant groups are strong, given they control more of the media than Catholics do.

Affecting the CC? In what ways is it affecting the CC?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Media. You give power to the media. I wonder how in the past information was transmitted and the effect it had on Christianity as it has spread. What media was used? Media is nothing new, just the forms…

The Protestant thought to destroy the Church is very active so what is new. The Church will face that until Christ returns I believe, so what…There was an attempt at some sort of leadership in the early Heretical days of those that departed as evidenced by the Synod of Dort and that should serve as a prognosticator for the effectiveness of the Protestant thought in time…I doubt there will ever be anything resmbling Protestant unity in time…this should be something that many that see Protestant thought as a vehicle for uniting could never be…The past to the present is a puzzle of disunity…

I never said they will subdue the Church. But they’ve been very successful picking off those of weaker catechesis.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

No.

 

[Telstar]

No.