Did the Apostles consider their own writings to be scripture?

[Publisher]

Right. And it’s kinda difficult to write stuff down after you’ve already died.
But why would everyone get so touchy about this? As you said, it was a common writing “method”. It’s just the facts. Nothing to get all upset about. No one is attacking anyone. It just is.

For many people it is a difficult concept to believe scripture “has a history” in it’s formation…much of it steeped in tradition and pious stories to “build up” the faithful.

Critical scholarship has not lessened the great gift scripture is…but has made the scriptures come alive…the writers of scripture…especially the NT were trying to put down on paper this experience they had with Jesus of Nazareth…there is no writing in existence of the original 12…except for Paul’s letters most of the NT wasn’t written until late into the first century and well into the second. The writings we have in the NT are a compilation of many many such writings…these were chosen as the “authoritive” voice of the dominant group of those who were called “Christians”.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

As for the dating of the NT scripture, many scholars today still debate on the dates of when the gospels were written. However, they very likely completed before the close of the 1st and written by eyewitnesses or under the direction of eyewitnesses. In fact, more recent scholarship is trending towards earlier dates for the gospels for various and compelling reasons, especially if the source “Q” is considered.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Did the Apostles consider their own writings to be scripture? Did anyone else?

Hey Big D.,

There is an interesting article about the authors of the Gospels at Catholic Culture: link: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6976.

I’ve read a number of books about the authors of the New Testament. There is plenty of disagreement among scholars about authorship.

What is interesting to consider is that Jesus and his Apostles probably spoke Aramaic. So, during a time of great persecution, the Aramaic speaking Apostles would have had to learn Greek (unless they were bilingual/multilingual)— if one believes the original writings of the N.T. were written in Greek. Again, this would have been very difficult, given the persecution they endured.

The earliest forms could have been written in Aramaic, and later translated to Greek. I don’t really know. I think to a great extent we are at the mercy of the Scholars, in regards to authorship, and new discoveries are made as time passes.

I do believe that the N.T. texts are inspired and were written by “sacred authors,” as stated in the Catholic article cited above.

I haven’t found any evidence that the authors knew they were writing Scripture; but I could be wrong (and often am .)

Interesting topic.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Big_Dummy]

Anna I have been in war and frankly it is easy to find time to write home if one is inclined to do so-- yes, I am equating war with perscution.

As for the languages thing, Paul and Luke were learned men, thus it would be no problem to think they wrote and spoke in Greek and in other languages too. Matthew was a tax collector which would require him to know more than one language too. As for ther others, one can make a case that they understood Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and some Latin. And, even if it could be shown that they did not speak all three or four languages, they very well could have used a learned christian securtary to write for them.

Book: Reading and Writing in the Time of Jesus By A. R. Millard

The Jews of NT times spoke Aramaic at home and in conversations. Aramaic was similar Hebrew and Arabic. (al-Rahmaan, al-Rahiim, in the Fatiha of the Quran were probably derived from the Aramaic language). In business life and official writings they used the common Koine Greek that all peoples in the area used for hundreds of years. They actually thought and talked in at least two or three languages as people do today. The Roman occupiers of the Holy Land at that time spoke Latin and Greek. Evidence of the three languages used in that time is found in the New Testament itself in the Gospel of John 19:19-20NIV)

“Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH, The King of the Jews. Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in **Aramaic, Latin and Greek.” **

answering-islam.org/Bible/nt-languages.html

The Gospel according to Luke: introduction, translation, and notes: Volume 28, Part 1
books.google.com
Joseph A. Fitzmyer - 1981 - 837 pages - Snippet view
“It is not easy to determine the source of the Semitic lexical and syntactic interference in Lucan Greek. Is it owing to Luke’s imitation of Sep- tuagint style and vocabulary or to some direct interference of Hebrew or Aramaic in the …”

Mark 7:26
The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

John 12:20
Jesus Predicts His Death ] Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival.

John 19:20
Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.

Acts 11
19 Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. 20 Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus.

Acts 14:1
In Iconium ] At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of **Jews and Greeks **believed.

Acts 16:1
Timothy Joins Paul and Silas ] Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose **mother was Jewish **and a believer but whose father was a Greek.

Acts 17:12
As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent **Greek **women and many Greek men.

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 21:37-40
Good News Translation (GNT)

Paul Defends Himself
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the fort, he spoke to the commander:
May I say something to you?

     **You speak Greek, do you? **the commander asked.38 
     Then you are not that Egyptian fellow who some time ago started a revolution and led four thousand armed terrorists out into the desert?

39 Paul answered,
I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of an important city. Please let me speak to the people.

40 The commander gave him permission, so Paul stood on the steps and motioned with his hand for the people to be silent. When they were quiet, Paul spoke to them in Hebrew:

Based on inscriptions or signs in the areas that the aposltles traveled and lived, there is no reason to limit their understanding of lanuages to just one language like modern Americans do. When the US was formed it was common for people to understand various languages. The modern American only understanding English is a very recent problem.

 

[Big_Dummy]

The Dead Sea scrolls and Christian origins By Joseph A. Fitzmyer

makes a case that Jewish people in Jesus day spoke in various languages via the use of loan words.

 

[ANNE_2]

No…we don’t know who wrote the gospels…they are not signed…tradition holds that the names attached to the gospels were written by then…but no critical biblical scholar today confirms their authorship…they were written anonymously.

This is incorrect information. I don’t know which Biblical schollars you are quoting.

Please read “Catholicism for Dummies” by Frs. Tragilio and Breghenti.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna I have been in war and frankly it is easy to find time to write home if one is inclined to do so-- yes, I am equating war with perscution.

As for the languages thing, Paul and Luke were learned men, thus it would be no problem to think they wrote and spoke in Greek and in other languages too. Matthew was a tax collector which would require him to know more than one language too. As for ther others, one can make a case that they understood Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic and some Latin. And, even if it could be shown that they did not speak all three or four languages, they very well could have used a learned christian securtary to write for them.

Book: Reading and Writing in the Time of Jesus By A. R. Millard

answering-islam.org/Bible/nt-languages.html

The Gospel according to Luke: introduction, translation, and notes: Volume 28, Part 1
books.google.com
Joseph A. Fitzmyer - 1981 - 837 pages - Snippet view
“It is not easy to determine the source of the Semitic lexical and syntactic interference in Lucan Greek. Is it owing to Luke’s imitation of Sep- tuagint style and vocabulary or to some direct interference of Hebrew or Aramaic in the …”

Mark 7:26
The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

John 12:20
Jesus Predicts His Death ] Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival.

John 19:20
Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.

Acts 11
19 Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. 20 Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus.

Acts 14:1
In Iconium ] At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of **Jews and Greeks **believed.

Acts 16:1
Timothy Joins Paul and Silas ] Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose **mother was Jewish **and a believer but whose father was a Greek.

Acts 17:12
As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent **Greek **women and many Greek men.

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 21:37-40
Good News Translation (GNT)

Paul Defends Himself
37 As the soldiers were about to take Paul into the fort, he spoke to the commander:
May I say something to you?

     **You speak Greek, do you? **the commander asked.38 
     Then you are not that Egyptian fellow who some time ago started a revolution and led four thousand armed terrorists out into the desert?

39 Paul answered,
I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of an important city. Please let me speak to the people.

40 The commander gave him permission, so Paul stood on the steps and motioned with his hand for the people to be silent. When they were quiet, Paul spoke to them in Hebrew:

Based on inscriptions or signs in the areas that the aposltles traveled and lived, there is no reason to limit their understanding of lanuages to just one language like modern Americans do. When the US was formed it was common for people to understand various languages. The modern American only understanding English is a very recent problem.

Interesting post Big D,

I appreciate all the effort. But I’m officially on vacation for one week. Will come back to give this proper consideration after.

Peace to you,
Anna

 

[CompSciGuy]

Since Paul is the only one we know for sure wrote any of what became the New Testament…I seriouosly doubt it…he wrote letters to those churches he established…doubt he ever thought of them being bound in a book and called “scripture”.

That’s a good point. If St. Paul had meant for his letters to be a sole rule of faith, he would have written them in a more complete, systematic manner, like the catechism.

 

[Publisher]

That’s a good point. If St. Paul had meant for his letters to be a sole rule of faith, he would have written them in a more complete, systematic manner, like the catechism.

Paul’s theology is developing through out his letters…1 Cor is a bit different than Romans…and Ephesians…IF PAUL WROTE IT…“deuteroPaul” may have written it…the older the letters the more developing “Paul” by the time the “speudo-Pauls” were written…usually after Paul’s death to the early 2nd century…Paul preached in the synagouges thru-out the Medit. Sea and Asia Minor…he would have spoken to Hellenistic Jews and God-fearers who was accepting the Good News of no ritual circumcision to now be named among the People of God…a ritual that many “God-fearers”…those “Gentiles” that believed in Israel’s God…but refused to be circumcised…NOW they had a way to be among the People of God without circumcision.

After the fall of Jerusalem, those pious Pharisees that survived, “re-ordered” the Jewish religion no longer around the Temple…but around the Sabbath and Torah in synagouges. It is most likely this event in history which split Christianity and Judaism apart from one another…Christianity had moved so far from it’s Jewish roots with the large influx of Gentiles…which outnumbered the “circumcised” believers…but the Temple kept them together as up to now Christianity was just a sect of Judaism…it would now become the predominant “sect” as more and more Gentiles entered the church and the “Old Testament” was now used as Christian apologetic for their concepts and beliefs…the LXX provided a Greek version and the Hebrew Torah/Prophets/Writings were no longer used in Gentile circles…Those first believers were Jews/God-fearers…in times of great social change…like the Jewish War in 66-70CE…with the fall of the Temple…both Christians and Jews would change forever.

 

[schaick]

That’s a good point. If St. Paul had meant for his letters to be a sole rule of faith, he would have written them in a more complete, systematic manner, like the catechism.

Paul knew the rule of faith to be the Gospel. Paul was writing to groups that were experiencing different difficulties explaining how to apply the Gospel to their specific situation.