Did the Catholic Church authorize the murder of Martin Luther?

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The Roman Church at the time was doing the same as Islam does to today where it hold majority for converting to another faith.
I wonder if the Reformers were to suffer an early death, would the total death count be a lot lower? The Church remains whole, Protestants and Catholics need not go after each other, hatred for one towards another don’t exist denomination-wise and a unified front against other contenders. Or is the whole thing just an excuse for certain princes to do things their way and seized the opportunity to break off by siding with dissidents?
 
Considering there were people killed for being heretics, I’d say that statement could be taken as calling for the death of Luther.
Lets just say this is true:rolleyes: I mean really, then why throw him out of the Church, and let him start his own Church, I mean after all he was a heretic right? If we killed him, how did he start his own Church? :rotfl::rotfl:

Never mind, I better let this one go!😃
 
To be fair, the Church would normally only persecute the leaders of any particular heresy. I suspect that those that erroneously followed would normally come into line once a demonstration was made.
No to be fair, persecution of heretics was done by the state not the Church. Lets use truth.
 
No to be fair, persecution of heretics was done by the state not the Church. Lets use truth.
The interaction of the roles of the Church and the state with respect to the identification and suppression/punishment of heresy varied over time and over regions. As exemplified in the institution of the Inquisition(s) in particular. An excellent summary of which can be found in Peters/INQUISITION.

GKC
 
No to be fair, persecution of heretics was done by the state not the Church. Lets use truth.
I assume the Church was doing everything in its power to change the mind of the state when killing heretics?
 
The interaction of the roles of the Church and the state with respect to the identification and suppression/punishment of heresy varied over time and over regions. As exemplified in the institution of the Inquisition(s) in particular. An excellent summary of which can be found in Peters/INQUISITION.

GKC
Yes, finally some truth. And you said the key word interaction of the roles of the Church and State, By the way got the book, and now that winters really here, I am going to FINALLY have the time to read that book.

While my position may change after I read that, I must state it now.

Yes the Church we I believe we can all agree would be the most qualified to decide is someone was indeed a true heretic of the Church or not, also did it best to help defend those who indeed were not. But lets not talk about who they helped, much more fun for some to crucify the CC for admitting if one was a true heretic of the Church.

Instead of stating the truth that it was a horrible law, and should have never have been, and a big mistake, its better to say the Church is at fault for the Law, and the Church killed heretics, not the law.

But again Truth is never what people want, Because if they did and it was true that The RCC teaches and has always taught to kill heretics, guess what? We would still be doing it.

Why? Because the RCC truth never changes.

Did the Church play its part? Sure it did, it had the knowledge to say if someone was a heretic or was not. And they also had the chance to help and defend people who were indeed not heretics. But who wants to hear that.

Bottom line, a Priest goes into a jail, what is the truth in his heart? To have this person killed for his crime (which at that time was a crime, but indeed lets blame the Priest for that also) or is his heart leading him there to help save this person and be able to defend him as not a heretic and help him.

Because the State worked with the Church to defined if someone was indeed a heretic, by all means lets blame the Church for the law.

People will say the Church prompted the State to do this, No, The RCC is led by the Holy Spirit and would never do this. Did human leaders in the Church make mistakes, of course not, they are not human right?

Again it is so EASY to blame the ONE HOLY CHURCH, for mistakes made by human leaders of its time.

Just like we can blame the Pope for the Priest today who caved into evil, and of course Jesus for the sins of Judas. It all comes back to blaming Christ or his Church does it not?
 
Yes, finally some truth. And you said the key word interaction of the roles of the Church and State, By the way got the book, and now that winters really here, I am going to FINALLY have the time to read that book.

While my position may change after I read that, I must state it now.

Yes the Church we I believe we can all agree would be the most qualified to decide is someone was indeed a true heretic of the Church or not, also did it best to help defend those who indeed were not. But lets not talk about who they helped, much more fun for some to crucify the CC for admitting if one was a true heretic of the Church.

Instead of stating the truth that it was a horrible law, and should have never have been, and a big mistake, its better to say the Church is at fault for the Law, and the Church killed heretics, not the law.

But again Truth is never what people want, Because if they did and it was true that The RCC teaches and has always taught to kill heretics, guess what? We would still be doing it.

Why? Because the RCC truth never changes.

Did the Church play its part? Sure it did, it had the knowledge to say if someone was a heretic or was not. And they also had the chance to help and defend people who were indeed not heretics. But who wants to hear that.

Bottom line, a Priest goes into a jail, what is the truth in his heart? To have this person killed for his crime (which at that time was a crime, but indeed lets blame the Priest for that also) or is his heart leading him there to help save this person and be able to defend him as not a heretic and help him.

Because the State worked with the Church to defined if someone was indeed a heretic, by all means lets blame the Church for the law.

People will say the Church prompted the State to do this, No, The RCC is led by the Holy Spirit and would never do this. Did human leaders in the Church make mistakes, of course not, they are not human right?

Again it is so EASY to blame the ONE HOLY CHURCH, for mistakes made by human leaders of its time.

Just like we can blame the Pope for the Priest today who caved into evil, and of course Jesus for the sins of Judas. It all comes back to blaming Christ or his Church does it not?
I think it could be said that some folk are interested in truth. And it is also true that history is complicated, being full of people and stuff. Takes some looking into. Glad you got the book. Chaps 1 and 2 are good on the background, of what was institutionalized, as to roles and missions, and why, varying over time and place.

GKC
 
I think I detect a slight tone of irony, there?

GKC
Its easier that way GKC! Anything to try to tear down the RCC. People will do anything to tear us down.

Like lets blame the poor boys for the Vietnam war, Lord knows many did, our own country calling them baby killers, etc. After all we want truth right? Not the truth that they did what they could to defend their country. No who wants to hear that. They did what they thought was right and with the truth they were given. But I am sure that does not count.

We would rather attack. And of course the innocent, the young babies, and babies is what they were, who were SENT to do their duty for their country. And Lord the mess that came back in, and instead of appreciate and help them, we crucified them. Not everyone, but you get my point.

The point is we all make mistakes in this world, but in our hearts for the right reasons.

Like today I have to believe we are trying to help people in Iraq, I truly believe this. But watch the news, let people debate this.

As time goes on we learn what we did right, and wrong. But the truth is the truth.

Did the leaders agree at the time that it was a good law or bad? 🤷 Just like the war of today and tomorrow and yesterday?

Just like blaming the poor vets for the war, is the same as blaming the RCC for the heretics. The Church like the vets is not at fault.

If you want to disagree with the leaders of the RCC at the time, or the law, Okay, Just like you can disagree with the leaders of our time for the vet. war.

But leave the Church and the Vets Alone, they are not guilty of any crime.
 
Even so, the story of how Hank got the *Defensor Fidei title * is slightly more complicated than that. Tis a tale I’ve told here before.

GKC
Would love to read it. Could you link it?

Thanks. 🙂
 
Its easier that way GKC! Anything to try to tear down the RCC. People will do anything to tear us down.

Like lets blame the poor boys for the Vietnam war, Lord knows many did, our own country calling them baby killers, etc. After all we want truth right? Not the truth that they did what they could to defend their country. No who wants to hear that. They did what they thought was right and with the truth they were given. But I am sure that does not count.

We would rather attack. And of course the innocent, the young babies, and babies is what they were, who were SENT to do their duty for their country. And Lord the mess that came back in, and instead of appreciate and help them, we crucified them. Not everyone, but you get my point.

The point is we all make mistakes in this world, but in our hearts for the right reasons.

Like today I have to believe we are trying to help people in Iraq, I truly believe this. But watch the news, let people debate this.

As time goes on we learn what we did right, and wrong. But the truth is the truth.

Did the leaders agree at the time that it was a good law or bad? 🤷 Just like the war of today and tomorrow and yesterday?

Just like blaming the poor vets for the war, is the same as blaming the RCC for the heretics. The Church like the vets is not at fault.

If you want to disagree with the leaders of the RCC at the time, or the law, Okay, Just like you can disagree with the leaders of our time for the vet. war.

But leave the Church and the Vets Alone, they are not guilty of any crime.
I understand your point. I’m retired Air Force, 1968-1988. But history is not always clear cut, in either direction. See what you think of Peters. The Black Legend is not history, and is the default position of the uneducated, but what is in history is not simple.

GKC
 
Luther was an outlaw and an excommunicated heretic. Killing him, from the standpoint of both Church and imperial authorities would not have been murder. Kind of the way most Americans regard the killing of Osama bin Laden. (The common thinking was that heretics were worse than murderers because they killed souls.)

Edwin
But that’s not what the edict allowed for, and that’s not what happened to those who found themselves being prosecuted by the edict.
 
They’re just giving a definition of what it means to be an outlaw - that the person is specifically outside the regular protection of the law. You literally can kill an outlaw and take their positions without repercussions.

Moe info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw
Obviously those prosecuted under the edict were not immediately killed by the Church or anyone else.

BTW, the word ‘outlaw’ does not appear in the edict anywhere.
 
Would love to read it. Could you link it?

Thanks. 🙂
I could post it; is mine own. Lemme see if I can find a copy of a good rendition …

Ok. Here’s one. I modified the thing over time, as I learned more. This looks like a late version, should not have too many holes in it. The bulk of the info comes from Scarisbrick’s bio (which is the best single Hank book I know of) and bits and pieces came from some of my other Henry bios.

GKC speaks:

Henry like sparklies. Was always on the look-out for a new and nifty title, or gee-gaw to add to his collection. In 1512, he petitioned Julius II to award him the title possessed by Louis XII, “Most Christian King” (you didn’t just call yourself something like that; it was awarded). Not sure if “Most Christian” was a singular title, but Julius did award it to Henry, and, for good measure, secretly gave him the French throne. All he had to do to claim it was to defeat Louis in the then on-going unpleasantness between the Holy League and France. That part never happened, though Henry tried. But Henry got his “Christianissimus”.

In 1515, Henry wanted something else to pad his resume. Various ideas were passed around: “Protector of the Holy See”, maybe “Defender”, from the English side. The first was turned down because it already belonged to the Holy Roman Emperor, the second was the property of the Swiss. Some in Rome countered with “King Apostolic” (interesting combination) or “Orthodox”. The Pope vetoed both. In 1516, the title of “Defender of the Faith” was proposed from England. Leo ignored it, and Henry gave up until May, 1521, when Wolsey wrote once again to Rome, asking for a pretty for Henry. Leo passed it to a committee of Cardinals. Forthcoming were suggestions:

Rex Fidelis”, “Orthodoxus”, “Ecclesiaticus” ,
“Protector”, “Anglicus

When the Cardinals inquired just why Henry warranted another honor, the part he had played fighting for the Holy See against Louis, 9 years before, was mentioned. And there was the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum), a defense of the sacraments, and Papal authority,contra Luther, of which Rome had heard. It was in draft (in this form), in May 1521, printed in July, sent to Rome in September, after the Cardinals had been considering the matter of Henry’s request for a few months. And it was at least partially Henry’s work. Probably). So, before the* Assertio* was received and presented to Leo, (his copy bound in cloth-of-gold, hand inscribed to Leo, the 27 other copies more mundane), a list of titles for Henry to choose from was shipped to England.

The Assertio probably tipped the scales. About the time it was presented to Leo, Henry chose the same title that had been suggested by England 6 years before: Defensor Fidei. Leo granted it six weeks after he received the book. Doubtless directly inspired by the Assertio, some cardinals then wanted to add a flourish such as Gloriosus or Fidelissimus, but Leo vetoed it.

So Henry got his sparklie, partially because of the Assertio, partially because of the Holy League, partially because he was a pain in the neck. It was intended as a title for him personally, though he thought it was hereditary. Paul III, not surprisingly, revoked it in 1535. Parliament thought it looked nice, and attached it to the Throne, in 1543. Mary took it off, in her Second Act of repeal, Elizabeth put it back, and it’s there now by legislative fiat. Hence, the title attached to the British Monarchy is not really the same as the one Henry bore. It’s a gift from Parliament. Just uses the same words.

And that’s more of the story. Whether it is the rest of the story is unlikely, history being complicated, but I’ll modify it as circumstances dictate.

GKC
 
Thanks GKC.

Still, I don’t think it was coincidence that Henry received the Defensor Fidei so shortly after Luther’s excommunication and the Diet of Worms.
 
Were they immediately murdered by the Catholic Church?
No, they were given an opportunity to recant before being punished. They had a companion that probably recanted or at least was given a day to mull it over and so wasn’t burned with the two, but I can’t find too much information about him.
 
No, they were given an opportunity to recant before being punished. They had a companion that probably recanted or at least was given a day to mull it over and so wasn’t burned with the two, but I can’t find too much information about him.
So, they were prosecuted as the edict was written and not treated as ‘outlaws’ subject to immediate murder by the Catholic Church or anyone else without repercussion? Thank you.

I think that much of this conjecture comes from those sympathetic to Luther and hostile toward the Catholic Church.
 
Thanks GKC.

Still, I don’t think it was coincidence that Henry received the Defensor Fidei so shortly after Luther’s excommunication and the Diet of Worms.
I think the Assertio tipped the scales. Point was, it was not a quid pro quo. It had roots.

GKC
 
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