Did the Church really set Western society back hundreds of years?

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This list is wonderful … and one reason for posting now is so that I can come back to it.

Keep in mind that the list stops in 1095.
And that’s only because it was the year of the first Crusade.
But you can keep the list going …
In 1492, the Moors were expelled from Spain after an occupation of almost 800 years. And what then began were the romantic Corsairs … seizing Christian men and women from coastal towns and from ships on the Mediterranean … and using them as slaves.
That went on until the early 1800’s … more than 300 years.
Finally, the Europeans had had enough and people like Lord Admiral Nelson sailed in and shelled Tripoli and other places. And eventually … around 1825 … you need to look it up, the only way the Europeans had to stop the piracy was to occupy North Africa … The Spanish and French occupied what is now Morocco, the French occupied what is now Algeria and Tunisia; the Italians went into Libya; and the English into Egypt; etc.
AND, even the isolationist AMERICANS got into the act … read up on “Jefferson’s War” … in 1805 …
Apart from burning the fabulous library at Alexandria, not much to brag about has come out of any of those Muslim advances. Actually, I think they just burned it for a second time.
You can also add in there the Battle of Lepanto and the Battle of Vienna, where two major invasion attempts by Muslims were thwarted.
You are absolutely right, and we might call your observation “Colonialism in Context”. We know that this aggression continued after the end of the Crusades (1272) because the Ottoman Empire (1299–1922) was a Muslim conquest. At the height of its power (16th – 17th century), it spanned three continents, controlling much of Southeastern Europe.
 
How would you guys respond to someone who says the Church held Western Society back (and caused the dark ages) and Islam is responsible for the enlightenment?
You mean AFTER I finished laughing? I mean be serious. Look at Islamic culture for 5 minutes. It is inherently based on the idea of God as remote, inscrutable and in absolute control over every event on earth (little to no subtlety in regards to human free will as a manifestation of God’s will). No wonder Islamic culture ceased positive contribution to human cultural advances many centuries ago. The great early advances of Islamic culture were due almost entirely to the cultural momentum provided by their conquered peoples (especially, but not exclusively Eastern Orthodox christians). Once that momentum ran out, Islam has yet to show any positive long term cultural fruit of its own and has manifested rather plenty of rotten fruit.

The problem with Western Civilization isn’t the Church, it is fallen human nature. Yes, there have been plenty of shocking and appalling events in the history of the West. And there haven’t been in the OTHER cultures of the earth? They assert that it is mere coincidence that it is the West that has produced the most achievements in the sciences in the history of mankind?

Ask if they want a really good deal on a slightly used bridge.
 
You mean AFTER I finished laughing? I mean be serious. Look at Islamic culture for 5 minutes. It is inherently based on the idea of God as remote, inscrutable and in absolute control over every event on earth (little to no subtlety in regards to human free will as a manifestation of God’s will). No wonder Islamic culture ceased positive contribution to human cultural advances many centuries ago. The great early advances of Islamic culture were due almost entirely to the cultural momentum provided by their conquered peoples (especially, but not exclusively Eastern Orthodox christians). Once that momentum ran out, Islam has yet to show any positive long term cultural fruit of its own and has manifested rather plenty of rotten fruit.

The problem with Western Civilization isn’t the Church, it is fallen human nature. Yes, there have been plenty of shocking and appalling events in the history of the West. And there haven’t been in the OTHER cultures of the earth? They assert that it is mere coincidence that it is the West that has produced the most achievements in the sciences in the history of mankind?

Ask if they want a really good deal on a slightly used bridge.
Actually, laughter was my initial response. The fellow who made the comment, btw, is a school teacher. So after I stopped laughing I wanted to address his comment in as level headed manner as I could manage but history isn’t my strong point. Which is why I asked you guys. 🙂
 
Sorry, I would say Islam set back the Islamic World 1000 years.
Look at what the North of Africa was in the year 400 dC and now.
As for dialogue with Muslims, I do not think it possible. I can quote by memory 13 places were there are Muslims at war.
 
Sorry, I would say Islam set back the Islamic World 1000 years.
Look at what the North of Africa was in the year 400 dC and now.
As for dialogue with Muslims, I do not think it possible. I can quote by memory 13 places were there are Muslims at war.
Oh my dear friend, God DOES work miracles… it is not your job to win, but to do; God will do the winning, you do the selling (exemplem docet).
 
yes, because the lack of Christianity as a moving force sure helped the Middle East, Japan, China, and Africa to get to the pinnacle of Technological Genius that they are today… (that was sarcasm).

Realistically speaking, the pagan barbarians destroyed (and, in the present form of extremist organizations continue to destroy) civilization left and right, and it is the influence of the church which is the reason that the west lifted the NON-Christian world out of the middle ages and into the industrial and information age.
Yeah, they make world-shaking innovations in between honor killings and sleeping in holes in the ground. Right.
 
There was a book written by a German in the the last few years"How the Scots built the MODERN world" It was on the best seller list for a long time.Since then the Irish have come up with their version citing the ancient saints like Columba /St Patrick,i.e…Now the Church has supporters with their ideas on it.Funny everyone wants the credit ,when it turns out good …You never hear of any one owning up or writing books about the catastrophhes(like the witchhunts) Which were tolerated under Christainity just making a point
 
I saw in a thread on here someone mentioned Occam’s Razor. So I went and looked it up, and found that the great thinker who invented it was, yet again, a Catholic, and a 14th century Franciscan Friar at that. That gave me the idea for this thread.

Atheists love to proclaim that the Medieval Church set Western society back hundreds of years, and that if it weren’t for the Church we would be flying around in hover cars and such. I’ve seen it all over the place, and even in acquaintances that I’ve talked to. They claim we did all kinds of book burnings and persecution of free thinkers (like Galileo).

It seems very silly to me to say such a thing, when it was the Church who produced the university, and the scientific method, and many great thinkers and clergymen such as this William of Ockham, and Nicolaus Copernicus, and Roger Bacon, and Gregor Mendel, etc. etc.

So how many of these claims have any footing to stand on? Did the Church fight for or against knowledge and scientific thought?
You are correct.

Its also noteworthy the scientific method (which all empirical science is based on) was developed by a devout Muslim (al-Hassan Ibn al-Haytham).

The Church did much to preserve scholarship and writings (will also give credit to the Muslim world for this too) during the Dark Ages.

Part of the reason I feel comfortable entering the Catholic church is its friendliness to science and reason.
 
There’s some serious oversimplification going on here.

The obvious fallacy is that the Church was either pro- or anti-science. In reality, it is both: there has always been a pro-science faction and an anti-science faction. Like in any large organization, depending on the prevailing cultural winds of the time, one faction or the other will get on top and drive the policy.

This is very nicely described in A canticle for Leiboivitz. It’s a sci-fi story, set in a Catholic monastery, after the nuclear war wiped out the present civilization. The monks preserve the pre-war books, and they do a great job. After several hundres years, a renaissance finally comes and science gets reborn. A scientist comes and asks to see the old books. And here’s the twist: he gets opposed by the librarian. The librarian says, that his job (and vocation) is preservation of books, and so, he keeps them in air-tight, sealed containers. He’s afraid that if he gives them to the scientist, these (truly priceless) books could be destroyed. An argument ensues; the abbott finally sides with the “progressive” faction, and the library is opened. (There’s another notable argument later after it’s realized that the library contains Darwin’s works.) Anyway…

The Church’s contribution to preserving knowledge during the Dark Ages is undeniable. And it’s undeniable that the Church, acting as a stabilizing force in Europe, has contributed to the start of Renaissance. Nevertheless, one must remember that the Church had a direct interest in the preservation of status quo, and was the last force wanting modernization. So the European Renaissance itself has happened independently of the Church, because of a favorable combination of other factors such as Gutenberg’s invention, Columbus’ voyage, fall of Cordoba and fall of Constantinople. Massive social change followed; let’s just note that Gutenberg’s Bible which went on sale in 1454 was instrumental in Luther’s 1517 reformation. The world changed, while the Church was still sticking to an old way of thinking; the ideas which were at the forefront of human thought in 1200s, were becoming horribly outdated. The change was seen as a bad development; the hardline conservatives got in power, in what the historians now call the Counter-Reformation. By 1600s, the Church went from being conservative to being anti-progress. That’s the era which gave us The Inquisition, and The Thirty Year’s War, culminating with the Galileo Trial, followed by 200 years of formal ban on studying the heliocentric system – which was nothing else than an open war on science. Fortunately, by Galileo’s time the kings have both gained enough independence from the Church and realized the power of advanced weapons, so while playing lip-service to the doctrinal orthodoxy, they started funding science while turning a blind eye to accusations of heresy.

This thread has some less than charitable statements on the Islamic contributions. One must be reminded of the existence of the so-called Islamic Golden Age, between ca. 750 AD and 1250 AD: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age At that era, the Arabic societies have been much more advanced than Europe. Notable contributions include: the number zero; algebra (the concept of using letters for describing variables); chemistry, astronomy (the bright stars are still today called by Arabic names) and medicine. The Arabs also had an extensive library of translations of classical works. Some argue that it was the conquest of Cordoba in 1492 which was instrumental instrumental in starting the Renaissance, as the Arabic libraries got in hands of laity, and so, the ancient Greek texts became known in Europe. The Church had its copies, of course, but they were kept under lid for ideological reasons.

Some have argued that the decline of Islamic civilization after 1250 AD has been due to increasing religious orthodoxy, which has finally eliminated creative science. Fortunately, 300 years later in Europe, things have turned out differently.

There is a very important lesson here.

TL;DR The Church was at the forefront of science in Europe in the Middle Ages, but by Galileo’s time is has became anti-scientific.
 
I don’t quite feel like breaking out any of my history books, and I don’t yet have How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, but I did happen across a startlingly long list of Catholic scientist-clerics on Wikipedia. Here it is, peruse at your leisure: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_scientist-clerics

If only the general population knew that a French Catholic priest formulated the Big Bang theory! Bet it would give them a shock.

As so many of the posters before me said, these atheist fellows can only say such things about the Church’s role in history because they have such woefully inadequate groundings in history in general.
 
I don’t quite feel like breaking out any of my history books, and I don’t yet have How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, but I did happen across a startlingly long list of Catholic scientist-clerics on Wikipedia. Here it is, peruse at your leisure: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_scientist-clerics

If only the general population knew that a French Catholic priest formulated the Big Bang theory! Bet it would give them a shock.

As so many of the posters before me said, these atheist fellows can only say such things about the Church’s role in history because they have such woefully inadequate groundings in history in general.
Intriguing…Would you mind to quote the French Priest, please?
 
Three things are absolutely essential for science, including modem sciences. One must understand that:[a] The world exists independent of us and is orderly.
** We can understand it.
[c] We should have no aversion to observing and working with nature (in particular to do experiments).
One of the most quoted verses of the Bible in the Catholic Middle Ages was: “God has ordered all things in measure, number and weight.” As for items b and c above, Catholicism has always emphasized the dignity of the human person, which it attributes especially to man’s ability to reason and understand starting from nature; its sacramental system manifests its belief in the necessity of the physical for man. The historians R.R. Palmer and Colton make the comparison with the culture of Islam, for example, that finally decided it was not okay to analyze the world in rational terms. Use of reason and its effectiveness in understanding this world were ultimately against the cult(ure), for according to Islam, Allah is sovereign in a sense that excludes secondary causes; according to that culture, Allah’s activity is completely inscrutable to man. Palmer and Colton say:
If any historical generalization may be made safely, it may be safely said that any society that believes reason to threaten its foundations will suppress reason. [St.] Thomas’ doctrine … gave freedom to thinkers to go on thinking. Here Latin Christendom [Catholicism] may be contrasted with the Muslim world. It was ruled, in about the time of Thomas Aquinas, that… the Gate was closed. Arabic thought, so brilliant for several centuries, went into decline. – Palmer and Colton, A History of the Modern World
**, page 38.

Dr. Anthony Rizzi, The Science Before Science, page 187.
 
kama3,

Yours is the conventional view of the tension between Church and science. But it is still distorted by the long legacy of hostility to catholicism in English speaking cultures. The “resistance” you speak of is not accurate. The apparent tensions between Church and thinkers of the Renaissance is not one of opposition to changes in the status quo, but of caution and the desire to truly comprehend before leaping.

Then, as today, the Church took the stance that new ideas were to be looked at slowly and carefully before being adopted. Gallileo was correct (and not particularly original) in his conclusion that the earth orbited the sun. He was blatantly INcorrect in his assertion that the sun was the center of the universe AND was incorrect in his theological assertions that his observations proved that Scripture was man-made and not infallibly inspired by God. It was the hasty conclusion like Gallileo’s that the Church has alwasy been wary of.

Today is no different. While science bithely plunges ahead into embryonic stem cell research, genetic modifications, fertility manipulation and so forth the Church almost ALONE loudly says “Just slow down and lets look at all the implications of this before jumping in with both feet, OK?”

Look back on the history of your examples and you will see it is not opposition to change or progress that is manifest in the Church’s general approach, but caution and adopting new ideas before the pitfalls are noticed. The protestant reformation, the French revolution, Marxism and Fascism are all the dark side of the post Renaissance failure to fully examine new ideas before adopting them wholeheartedly.

Regarding the Islamic achievements, again look closer. It is no coincidence that Islam advanced culturally only during its early centuries when it expanded and conquered vast areas of territories and assimilated the learning of THOSE cultures (Greek, Byzantine and Persian). In the centuries since Islam has slowed its territorial expansion, it has also stagnated in cultural, scientific and philosophical growth. No coincidence, IMO.
 
To balance Lemaitre, who is often cited as the example of the Church being pro-science, we should remind Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit and a respected paleontologist. His superiors had no problem with him digging up fossils, but after he realized theological implications of Darwinism, he was promptly censored:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
innerexplorations.com/chtheomortext/human.htm
Galileo had no way of proving his heliocentric theory. He did not get into conflict with the Church until he wanted it to change its doctrine to conform with his unproven theory. It looks like there is a little bit of that going on with Teilhard.
 
To balance Lemaitre, who is often cited as the example of the Church being pro-science, we should remind Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit and a respected paleontologist. His superiors had no problem with him digging up fossils, but after he realized theological implications of Darwinism, he was promptly censored:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
innerexplorations.com/chtheomortext/human.htm
Teilhard de Chardin’s musing simply departed from the realm of christianity (IMO). He became more of a new ager than a catholic at his wackiest point. When you lose track of the basic fact that Father, Son and Holy Spirit and PERSONS, not just cosmic forces, you’ve abandoned christendom.

In fairness, the Church is more careful than I am in drawing such conclusions. Teilhard is respected by the Church as an original thinker, but people essentially below the master’s degree level of education in philosophy and theology are discouraged from reading him precisely because his thinking at the very least appears to deny the utter distinction in substance between Creator and Creation.
 
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